(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 49: Dialing More Numbers than Mommy's Robo-Calls

[HerNameIsBuffy]

14 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

No one can really know how Anna really feels about sex with Josh, but I am glad you brought up this up.  It is simplistic to assume that, if she is defending him and wanting him back, it means that she was happy with their sex life and wants to resume it.  She could very well have had a great sex life, but it is also possible that their sex life was a burden and that though she misses him in other ways, she is relieved that she is getting a vacation from being sexually available all the time.

One of my father’s brothers married a woman who was brought up very strictly and, as my uncle put it to my dad, “not prepared for marriage.”  Without going into details, their sex-life was limited and not pleasurable to either of them because my uncle was a sensitive man who didn’t really enjoy making love with someone who was just “doing her duty.”

My point is that my aunt was totally committed to my uncle, defended him when he made stupid business moves (blamed others for his mistakes) and hated being separated.  She just didn’t like sex.

Given how Anna was brought up and how Josh is not a “sensitive man” and was probably not considerate of Anna in bed (since he wasn’t considerate anywhere else), it’s a reasonable guess that she might miss his lovemaking least of all.

Their sex life is their business.  But it probably has very little to do with what Anna says about Josh and their marriage.  Her bizarre loyalty is almost certainly not rooted in sexual compatibility. 😉🙃😉

 

 

Am I the only one who couldn't give less of a shit about how satisfied Anna was sexually?  If hated it, so what?  If she misses it because they shared rule 34 of doing in slipping around in a tub of chickenetti getting the Velveeta all up in their backdoors who cares?   If Josh couldn't find Satan's doorbell with a map and a flashlight who cares?  

Honestly, if anyone's sex life is totally besides the point it's a monster who gets off on torturing children and his enabler.

A lot of parents have to forgo sex when separated or split up and no one cares because they sell batteries everywhere.  

Not bitching at you, I've posted my own hypotheticals about her life that are equally irrelevant, but just to the concept that whether or not she misses sex with him makes me kind of sick given we know what he fantasized about and that consensual, mutually enjoyable sex with an adult woman wasn't topping his list.

 

[mpheels]

4 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

I sure would like to know!  We know that JB was keeping the TLC money until Derick pushed the issue and made him pay some for the time he and Jill were on the show.  I wonder if there was any similar arrangement made between JB and Jeremy, done very quietly.  I've been wondering how Jeremy and Jinger are affording their life in L.A.  But the TLC gravy train has ended.  JB looks well off on paper but I believe a great deal of his wealth is in properties he owns.  I presume he rents out a number of them to non-family members, so that would be a regular source of income.  He could have an investment portfolio - perhaps that generates a monthly income as well.  I think he leases some land to a cell phone company so they can have a tower placed there, so that is another source of monthly income.  

As to outgoing finances, who knows?  We presume that he is helping Anna financially, so that she can at least buy groceries and clothing, plus incidentals.  Are some of his sons employed by him?  I suspect some financial shenanigans because that is right up his (JB's) alley.  We'll probably never really know.

From past TV stuff, we know JB has a bunch of commercial rental property, including “low maintenance” things like rental storage units. He also rented out plots of land for cell phone towers. Assuming he owns the property debt-free, those should be steady sources on income. The cell towers in particular could be lucrative since service providers will pay a premium for locations that meet local ordinances and optimize coverage. I also suspect he rents out pasture land to local farms. Residential rentals require more active work and upkeep, but I assume those are debt free as well, so he can get a decent profit margin out of the rent.

If JB invested some of the TLC money thoughtfully, he can expect a reasonable payout for annual dividends. I think it’s entirely possible he has $1million in a mutual fund, and that would kick off something around $40,000/year in dividends without having to touch the principal. I suspect he invested as much as possible during the early TLC years, when they were still living a pretty frugal life and all extravagances were paid by TLC. 

As far as we known, they own their house outright (probably JB’s most masterful grift), as do all of the adult children living in AR. That easily cuts out half of the fixed expenses you would expect for a family that size. None of them have student loans to deal with, and they buy cars with cash at auction, so no car payment either.

If JB is selling off land, that tells me he needs quick cash, but not badly enough to dip into the principal of any investments or sell off any revenue generating property. He probably always planned to sell off land to developers, but hoped he could wait until the prices were at a premium.

[SassyPants]

4 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'm so baffled by their finances.  We all assume JB and M are paying the legal fees because Josh never seemed to have any money, but they just sold 5 acres of their own compound for about $45k.  If they're hurting for money that they have to parcel out their land for under 50k, how are they swinging the legal fees?

One of the biggest mysteries for me about fundies are their finances.  I read on here Jessa and Ben gifted his parents a trip to Scottland a few years ago, just bought a new house, yet she has no major sponsorships and he can't be making much as an associate pastor and JB's lackey.

Where does their money come from?  

Oh for me, this is one of my biggest wonders about these folks. Sure JB could have amassed money by living frugally, but having 19 kids plus spending money on political campaigns is NOT LIVING FRUGALLY. Could JB have legally amassed the amount of money to support 10 growing families (house, clothe, insure, plus pay for transportation costs and utilities on all those homes), not to mention planes? And we know JB and M are rather lax when it comes to rentals, upkeep and occupancy. He might be a cunning and angry man, but I do not see him as tenacious or particularly driven. I don’t know, the math seems fuzzy to me. I would love to see JB’s financials and also to have a professional assess them for any misappropriation or fraud.

[Cat Damon]

53 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

If she misses it because they shared rule 34 of doing in slipping around in a tub of chickenetti getting the Velveeta all up in their backdoors who cares?

This imagined rule is equally brilliant and sickening 😂

[SassyPants]

25 minutes ago, mpheels said:

From past TV stuff, we know JB has a bunch of commercial rental property, including “low maintenance” things like rental storage units. He also rented out plots of land for cell phone towers. Assuming he owns the property debt-free, those should be steady sources on income. The cell towers in particular could be lucrative since service providers will pay a premium for locations that meet local ordinances and optimize coverage. I also suspect he rents out pasture land to local farms. Residential rentals require more active work and upkeep, but I assume those are debt free as well, so he can get a decent profit margin out of the rent.

If JB invested some of the TLC money thoughtfully, he can expect a reasonable payout for annual dividends. I think it’s entirely possible he has $1million in a mutual fund, and that would kick off something around $40,000/year in dividends without having to touch the principal. I suspect he invested as much as possible during the early TLC years, when they were still living a pretty frugal life and all extravagances were paid by TLC. 

As far as we known, they own their house outright (probably JB’s most masterful grift), as do all of the adult children living in AR. That easily cuts out half of the fixed expenses you would expect for a family that size. None of them have student loans to deal with, and they buy cars with cash at auction, so no car payment either.

If JB is selling off land, that tells me he needs quick cash, but not badly enough to dip into the principal of any investments or sell off any revenue generating property. He probably always planned to sell off land to developers, but hoped he could wait until the prices were at a premium.

JB and M are not homesteaders, so unless there was neglect/abuse involved there was no way for them to live frugally and feed 19 children. If they were meeting all those kids’ nutritional needs for growth and development, frugality would have gone out the window. For the last 20 (plus or minus) years they have been paying to heat and cool that mammoth home, again that’s not living frugally. The number of cars, RVs, planes, plus the gas to fuel them all, cha-Ching. And no one else really works at a lucrative business. How much was Josh’s car lot actually making? 

Edited February 4, 2022 by SassyPants

[neuroticcat]

I think most of the Duggar wealth is from owning a lot of properties and renting them out. It’s a good passive stream of income, even after the TLC money is gone. I remember them getting money for a cell tower on their property. Maybe that’s no longer viable with the switch to 5G and they decided to sell the land cheap.

I do keep trying to make the puzzle pieces fit re: Anna even though I know it’s pointless. I think she must be going all in on remaining in the cult. If that’s the case, then her actions are done primarily out of following authority: God wants her under her umbrella of authority to Josh (unless JB is sort of a sub authority during jail time). In cult teaching, the woman abdicates responsibility (and choice) to their headship. So if Josh or JB told her to post something, she posts it being careful not to technically lie (which would be disobeying God). The “there is more to the story” hints at things but doesn’t outrightly state anything. God will deal with her headship, so she doesn’t need for it to make any kind of logical sense, honestly. Maybe she believes he is innocent; maybe she sees no difference between CSA and any other sin; maybe she knows he did it but he is forgiven so it doesn’t matter - in the end, the cult teaches her that her feelings and thoughts don’t matter and shouldn’t be trusted anyway. So instead of doing the hard work of piecing things back together for her children and trying to recover from a lifetime of trauma and indoctrination, she can feel that she has done the right thing by submitting to her headship  and, likely, can look forward to spiritual benefit from it.

She is responsible not only because she is 34 but also because she is psychologically benefitting from remaining in the cult. As always, it is the children who will suffer.

[SassyPants]

3 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

I think most of the Duggar wealth is from owning a lot of properties and renting them out. It’s a good passive stream of income, even after the TLC money is gone. I remember them getting money for a cell tower on their property. Maybe that’s no longer viable with the switch to 5G and they decided to sell the land cheap.

I do keep trying to make the puzzle pieces fit re: Anna even though I know it’s pointless. I think she must be going all in on remaining in the cult. If that’s the case, then her actions are done primarily out of following authority: God wants her under her umbrella of authority to Josh (unless JB is sort of a sub authority during jail time). In cult teaching, the woman abdicates responsibility (and choice) to their headship. So if Josh or JB told her to post something, she posts it being careful not to technically lie (which would be disobeying God). The “there is more to the story” hints at things but doesn’t outrightly state anything. God will deal with her headship, so she doesn’t need for it to make any kind of logical sense, honestly. Maybe she believes he is innocent; maybe she sees no difference between CSA and any other sin; maybe she knows he did it but he is forgiven so it doesn’t matter - in the end, the cult teaches her that her feelings and thoughts don’t matter and shouldn’t be trusted anyway. So instead of doing the hard work of piecing things back together for her children and trying to recover from a lifetime of trauma and indoctrination, she can feel that she has done the right thing by submitting to her headship  and, likely, can look forward to spiritual benefit from it.

She is responsible not only because she is 34 but also because she is psychologically benefitting from remaining in the cult. As always, it is the children who will suffer.

The thing about the rentals though, I remember on more than 1 occasion JB mentioning that he had planned to fix up or rent different properties but didnt get around to doing so for years. The properties I remember him referencing: 1-the place that Derick and Jill lived in when they first got married. The second place was the monstrosity that he tried to have Josiah and Lauren move into. Wasn’t that one like an office building with an elevator? And then there was the house that Jessa lives in. From the time Josh and Anna moved out 6/13 until when Jessa moved in 11/14, almost a year and a half, it was vacant and unkept. Remember there was black mold on the walls? Lastly, there is Jana’s tattoo parlor. Does any one know the state of that structure? JB seems to be one of those people who has many grandiose plans, but little ability to get stuff done. If not for TLC, I’m not sure the TTH would be complete in 2022.

[neuroticcat]

I think they owned a lot of commercial property that they rented out even in the early years of the show. So more than just the residential flip houses. If they own any of it including their residence outright - and I’m guessing they do given the IBLP teaching on debt - that’s a lot of passive income. 

[SassyPants]

9 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

I think they owned a lot of commercial property that they rented out even in the early years of the show. So more than just the residential flip houses. If they own any of it including their residence outright - and I’m guessing they do given the IBLP teaching on debt - that’s a lot of passive income. 

But like others have said, where did they get the seed money? They were 2 people who worked hard for 4 NOT 40 years and then started having additional mouths to feed and 1 less worker to bring in money. So between 1988 and 2000 (there abouts) where was the additional money coming from? He would have needed a lot of liquid cash if he was buying commercial property debt free and supporting his ever growing family. I want to know what fund he robbed (besides education) to pay Paul. It just doesn’t add up, especially when you factor in the purported 6 figure cash expense for a campaign. I am roughly 10 years older than JB and M, only have 2 kids, always maintained 2 decent incomes, invested well, live within the means and by my accounting, it doesn’t add up-

[backyard sylph]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

On twitter is there a way for cowards like her to block the feedback so they don't see it?  I know she had her insta comments turned off.

I know people can do what they want with their SM and I'm being unreasonable, but I'm irritated she put that out there while blocking feedback.  If she feels so strongly about it she should be able to defend it.

She can in a way, but if her tweet is public, then anyone can just stick her name in a tweet about it and say what they like. She can sort of block direct replies, but not entirely. Other than if she made it wholly private, there are several ways around any cut-offs she'd like to try. I mean, it would be easy for her to just ignore them all, anyway, by just never looking at notifications or her own thread. 

Most people know to get screenshots quickly of a tweet they think the author might delete or that might be banned, so at least she can never pretend it wasn't put out there. People did that with TFG every time until he was banned. 

[DalmatianCat]

20 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

But like others have said, where did they get the seed money? They were 2 people who worked hard for 4 NOT 40 years and then started having additional mouths to feed and 1 less worker to bring in money. So between 1988 and 2000 (there abouts) where was the additional money coming from? He would have needed a lot of liquid cash if he was buying commercial property debt free and supporting his ever growing family. I want to know what fund he robbed (besides education) to pay Paul. It just doesn’t add up, especially when you factor in the purported 6 figure cash expense for a campaign. I am roughly 10 years older than JB and M, only have 2 kids, always maintained 2 decent incomes, invested well, live within the means and by my accounting, it doesn’t add up-

Did you ever read their book? I read it years ago and can’t remember all the details, but most of the information people have posted above is backed up in their book about how they got started in real estate, etc. and seemed true and plausible. In the early days they both worked very hard and saved everywhere they could. Even after Michelle started having kids she was still a very active part of the business and probably saved JB lots of money by not having to hire office help. 
They made some good financial desicions that have paid off well, some bad decisions they regretted (there was a convenience store they bought that turned out to be a money pit), and some incredibly lucky ones that fell into their lap (the cell phone tower).

Being real estate agents probably gave them lots of access to properties that were coming available. I do think they have a lot of commercial real estate they never mentioned on the show.

And I doubt JB is/was doing much to support most of the married kids outside of getting them set up with housing. If Jessa can make $5,000 every time she posts a video on YouTube, and she posts 10 a year, I can see her and Ben living easily on $50,000 a year without any assistance from JB. They live simply, their kids are young and don’t eat a lot, they have modest vehicles, she buys kids clothes and toys second-hand, and bought a fixer-upper that family helped repair. If Jessa and Ben were driving luxury vehicles, living in a brand new 2,000 sq ft home, traveling and buying clothes like the Bates girls, then their finances would puzzle me more. But the Seewald lifestyle, at least, tracks with what we assume Jessa earns as an influencer.

[mpheels]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

JB and M are not homesteaders, so unless there was neglect/abuse involved there was no way for them to live frugally and feed 19 children. If they were meeting all those kids’ nutritional needs for growth and development, frugality would have gone out the window. For the last 20 (plus or minus) years they have been paying to heat and cool that mammoth home, again that’s not living frugally. The number of cars, RVs, planes, plus the gas to fuel them all, cha-Ching. And no one else really works at a lucrative business. How much was Josh’s car lot actually making? 

Right, but we know there was a period of time when were neglecting the kids, and that period did overlap with the early TLC years. I think some of the pre-TLC deprivation was by choice so they could direct more money to property investments. Then there was a time where they were mostly eating canned food from Aldi, wearing thrifted clothes, making their own laundry detergent, and also bringing in TLC money while living in a house with no mortgage or rent payment. I assume a lot of their income from that period went into either commercial property or low risk investment accounts. That’s one of the primary advantages of funneling all the TLC money through JB. A quick google search suggests cell companies pay land owners around $15,000 year to place a single tower their land, but tower leases can bring in much more if it’s a high priority location. Storage units rent for $100/month in NWA. A few cell towers, investment income, rental on storage units… it all adds up. JB probably gets creative with his tax filings, and he has built his wealth on a mountain of in-kind gifts/grifts, but I don’t think there’s some hidden financial conspiracy waiting to be revealed. 

[SassyPants]

If these 2, who married as teens and went on tp have 19 children are financial wizards, those skills would be priceless in today”s society. They could start an enterprise teaching other undereducated prolific procreators how to do the same. I am not joking here, if the Duggars’ financial earnings are above board and they are as successful as some think, the bulk of society is doing it all wrong.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

On 2/4/2022 at 4:46 PM, neuroticcat said:

In cult teaching, the woman abdicates responsibility (and choice) to their headship.

As @formergothardite has said time and again, not when he has done this.  Even Debi Pearl is in favor of them  only being allowed home after serving their time and being repentant.  When Debi Pearl is a bigger advocate for child safety than Anna Duggar it's time to stop giving her a pass because it's the teaching of the cult.  She is allowed to divorce under these circumstances without jeopardizing her soul even according to them, we need to stop pretending otherwise.

On 2/4/2022 at 6:00 PM, DalmatianCat said:

But the Seewald lifestyle, at least, tracks with what we assume Jessa earns as an influencer.

Unless what someone recently stated here is true that they gifted Ben's parents a trip to Scotland a few years back.  How many people even with good jobs can afford to do that for their parents in their mid-twenties?

And she has no sponsors of note, and after one ad for Native in her recent video she lost that due to public outcry.  She's not pulling in big money from any of that.

Edited February 6, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy

[onekidanddone]

6 hours ago, EmmieJ said:

 

When I rewatched the footage of Josh's surprise proposal to Anna - yes, she looked totally taken by surprise and somewhat shell shocked.  I'm pretty sure she had no idea Josh was (supposedly) interested in her, and they hadn't been courting at all.  In her life experience at that time, it was clear that her parents knew of this proposal and approved, Josh Duggar was the oldest son of the fundie famous Duggar family (an approved celebrity), and she had been raised to want one thing only:  get married young and have as many babies as possible.  So of course, she said yes.

But it also seems to me that despite her initial awkward uncertainty of what the hell was happening, she fairly easily transitioned into excitement at the impending wedding, and enjoyed being featured on the tv show.  Then when Josh got the job in D.C., her life was even more exciting.  I think she thoroughly enjoyed being semi-famous, and the perks that came with marrying into the Duggar family at that time.  When the initial Ashley Madison scandal not only cost Josh his cushy D.C. job, but cast Josh and family off the tv show (for the most part), she was bitter about it.  She's been thinking that Josh (and by extension, her) have been treated unfairly ever since then.  She isn't going to be reflecting on her life choices anytime soon.  She got hooked on being fundie famous and is bitter that it has seemingly come to an end.  She can't accept it.  Too bad for her.

They weren’t courting at all? Didn’t they spend time together first before he showed up and ambushed her at the restaurant?

[DalmatianCat]

48 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Unless what someone recently stated here is true that they gifted Ben's parents a trip to Scotland a few years back.  How many people even with good jobs can afford to do that for their parents in their mid-twenties?

And she has no sponsors of note, and after one ad for Native in her recent video she lost that due to public outcry.  She's not pulling in big money from any of that.

Granted, I hate traveling, but a quick google search I just did showed that a couple’s trip to Scotland is around $2,500. I know families with 3 kids who easily spend twice that much going to DisneyWorld every other year. Airlines run deals and specials all the time and I follow an influencer who was just lamenting that she could travel to and from and stay in a hotel in Paris for only $1,500 which was less than a US destination she was looking at. I’m sure Jessa snagged the airline tickets and possible hotel or trip package on a flash sale. I can see her and Ben being able to swing the trip (it’s on their Instagram). Ben and Jessa live in a low-income area…if my guess that they are bringing in around $50,000 in influencer money is correct, I predict their actual living expenses are probably only $40,000 a year. Jessa’s frugal.

I admit…I have no clue how Jinger and Jeremy are making it, but Jessa’s finances make sense to me.

[Pleiades_06]

7 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I'm always baffled by the amount of fanfic on the Duggar forums in particular....ten pages ago someone was all "I bet Anna can't wait to have a break from sex with Josh"...Um, besides being gross, what possible reason would you have to believe this? They have eleventy children, not all conceived pre-scandal, either.  She's probably DYING to DTD with him again.

I think people are projecting how THEY would feel on her shoes.

I‘ve noticed a few posts on this thread suggest that lack of education/lack of intelligence are what led Anna/Priscilla to make the choices they did. If Priscilla really does have a learning disability, it’s incredibly ableist to assume that would lead her to join a cult. Just want to point out many traditionally educated, intelligent people make bad moral choices-the Bates parents met in college, Zsu Anderson was at Uni when she met PP, etc. I wish education   was the answer but it’s only part of the equation. 

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, Pleiades_06 said:

I think people are projecting how THEY would feel on her shoes.

I‘ve noticed a few posts on this thread suggest that lack of education/lack of intelligence are what led Anna/Priscilla to make the choices they did. If Priscilla really does have a learning disability, it’s incredibly ableist to assume that would lead her to join a cult. Just want to point out many traditionally educated, intelligent people make bad moral choices-the Bates parents met in college, Zsu Anderson was at Uni when she met PP, etc. I wish education   was the answer but it’s only part of the equation. 

Didn’t the parents initiate all of their kids into the cult? I don’t think anything other than parental decision making caused any of these people to join a cult. The problem lies in why they stay in the cult and worse, initiate their own kids into the cult.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, Pleiades_06 said:

I think people are projecting how THEY would feel on her shoes.

I‘ve noticed a few posts on this thread suggest that lack of education/lack of intelligence are what led Anna/Priscilla to make the choices they did. If Priscilla really does have a learning disability, it’s incredibly ableist to assume that would lead her to join a cult. Just want to point out many traditionally educated, intelligent people make bad moral choices-the Bates parents met in college, Zsu Anderson was at Uni when she met PP, etc. I wish education   was the answer but it’s only part of the equation. 

I think with Priscilla it's not about being ablest, at least not regarding learning disabilities.

The rumors for years of possible brain damage due to being born premature and then a severe childhood head injury...obviously no one knows her medical details, but if un addressed brain damage did rise to the level of cognitive impairment limiting her ability to assess her situation and critically think beyond cult brainwashing that's a very different scenario than just chalking up people with learning disabilities or the uneducated to being prone to cults.

[SassyPants]

50 minutes ago, DalmatianCat said:

Granted, I hate traveling, but a quick google search I just did showed that a couple’s trip to Scotland is around $2,500. I know families with 3 kids who easily spend twice that much going to DisneyWorld every other year. Airlines run deals and specials all the time and I follow an influencer who was just lamenting that she could travel to and from and stay in a hotel in Paris for only $1,500 which was less than a US destination she was looking at. I’m sure Jessa snagged the airline tickets and possible hotel or trip package on a flash sale. I can see her and Ben being able to swing the trip (it’s on their Instagram). Ben and Jessa live in a low-income area…if my guess that they are bringing in around $50,000 in influencer money is correct, I predict their actual living expenses are probably only $40,000 a year. Jessa’s frugal.

I admit…I have no clue how Jinger and Jeremy are making it, but Jessa’s finances make sense to me.

They live in student supplied housing, which is likely more affordable and over the years they have shilled a lot of crap (T-shirts, caps, books, podcasts, Jesus). Of course, the math still doesn’t add up, IMO.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think most people could join a cult if the circumstances were right. Just think to your absolute worst time in your life. Where you felt helpless, depressed, stressed, or just had no idea what to do with your life. And now imagine someone swooping in and “helping” you to fix your life. Many times cults will get people at low points in their lives. Or times when they have no direction but really want to do better and be better. I think that’s when you are more vulnerable to joining a cult. And most people have times like that in their lives. But those people just didn’t have a cult trying to recruit them then. 

[Pleiades_06]

7 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Didn’t the parents initiate all of their kids into the cult? I don’t think anything other than parental decision making caused any of these people to join a cult. The problem lies in why they stay in the cult and worse, initiate their own kids into the cult.

You’re right-stay in a cult.

I feel very uncomfortable with the discussion about brain damage and judgement as it’s complicated. A close family member has brain damage and still wouldn’t participate in a group like this. I really think people like to find reasons why people join-or in this case, stay-in cults. It’s convenient resort to classist/ableist, etc tropes when actually, people of all walks of life can be vulnerable if the conditions are right.

[Smee]

I think people stay in cults for much the same reason people stay in domestic violence relationships- because nothing is ever 100% one thing. Abusers have moments (however few and far between as time wears on) of love and kindness and making the victim feel cherished, and victims are worn down to think they don’t deserve better and wouldn’t get better anywhere else, they are “lucky” to have a partner/a God who loves them SO “fiercely and passionately” and wants what’s best for them. “It’s for your own good” says the controlling man who won’t let you have your own phone, or the pastor who tells you to endure the suffering as part of God’s plan. As the generational cycle of violence has kids looking to their parents for what’s acceptable to do/tolerate in a marriage or romantic relationship, so being born into a cult makes it harder to think critically about whether God really DOES want you to live under a headship and “educate” your bazillion kids at home. Abusers use an “us vs them” mentality to make their victims think not only is the abuser on their side, but the rest of the world isn’t. Fundies love to remind each other that Jesus said the world will hate you.

But there’s a difference between staying in a cult and pretending an incarcerated child abuser is innocent. Anna’s psychology surely includes some cult brainwashing, but as others have said, even IBLP and the rest of the Duggars are not telling her to defend Josh now.

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

As @formergothardite has said time and again, not when he has done this.  Even Debi Pearl is in favor of them  only being allowed home if repentant after serving their time and being repentant.  When Debi Pearl is a bigger advocate for child safety than Anna Duggar it's time to stop giving her a pass because it's the teaching of the cult.  She is allowed to divorce under these circumstances without jeopardizing her soul even according to them, we need to stop pretending otherwise.

I don’t disagree with you and don’t intend to give her a pass. She is choosing to stay in the cult and I imagine uses its headship doctrines to justify her decisions. My speculation is that I think she psychologically benefits from the cult teaching. It is much more spiritual to tell herself she is obeying God by submitting to authority rather than deal with the complexity of boundaries and what it means to have married a predator. She might have cult grounds for separation (divorce probably depends on how they define infidelity, I imagine), but I believe the broader cult teaching gives bonus suffering kudos to women who stay with abusers.
 

I didn’t know  Debi Pearl’s teaching included repentance - thought it was just welcome them home once the children were out of the house. Anyway, I have no idea if fundies would consider CSA grounds for divorce, but even if they do, some women still stay with predators and I imagine have spiritualized reasons for doing it.

[JDuggs]

This is where I found the info about the senior Seewalds’ trip.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by JDuggs
Trying to get picture under spoiler