(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 49: Dialing More Numbers than Mommy's Robo-Calls

[formergothardite]

10 minutes ago, sleepygirl1 said:

I glad to hear that. When I say poor Anna I mean this is just a sad situation all around. Posting documents that were already out a month ago, acting all excited about it, is sad and she is poor example of a mom and this poor situation. Will she live in the big house for the next 7+ years under Jim boob eyes and have to keep smile and talking to a child molester on the phone? That is a poor situation.

But she is choosing it. There is zero evidence she is being forced into this. She, like plenty of other women, is choosing a man over her children. When someone tells you who they are, believe them. Anna is telling us she wants a monster back in her bed having access to her children. No poor Anna. Save the pity for her children. 

Like I said earlier, these sort of people rely on being given a pass for their horrific behavior because people think they couldn't possibly understand what they are doing. Anna sides with a man who sought out the worst stuff and she continues to get head pats and the "poor Anna" treatment. Is there anything she can do to get people to hold her fully responsible for her actions? It is hardly like she is currently a sheltered young women who is a shrinking violet. 

[Bassett Lady]

4 hours ago, Smee said:

I’m kind of amazed that there’s so much discussion around whether she could be a teacher or not

The show touted her “degree” in education. She has made many comments and posts on “homeschooling “ her kids. 
 

If she did have an actual education degree and had been providing a thorough education to her brood she would have several years of experience under her belt. 
 

She might be able to take her diploma mill, non-accredited, worthless degree and be employed at a non-accredited religious school, but the pay at such locations is notoriously low. I know of one small school in that region that pays teachers $8,000 per year. 
 

The highest pay, at a non-accredited school, of which I am aware is $24,000. 
 

Even an emergency certification, for public school teachers, requires a minimum of an accredited bachelor’s degree. 
 

Even paraprofessional positions, such as classroom assistant , in a public school,  require a minimum of a high school degree, which she does not have. Our local public school’s paraprofessionals all have, at minimum, 60 credits of college. Many of them hold an Associate Degree and are working towards their Bachelor Degree.

 

Our local paraprofessionals make between $18,000 and $24,000 per academic year. 

[SassyPants]

2 minutes ago, Bassett Lady said:

The show touted her “degree” in education. She has made many comments and posts on “homeschooling “ her kids. 
 

If she did have an actual education degree and had been providing a thorough education to her brood she would have several years of experience under her belt. 
 

She might be able to take her diploma mill, non-accredited, worthless degree and be employed at a non-accredited religious school, but the pay at such locations is notoriously low. I know of one small school in that region that pays teachers $8,000 per year. 
 

The highest pay, at a non-accredited school, of which I am aware is $24,000. 
 

Even an emergency certification, for public school teachers, requires a minimum of an accredited bachelor’s degree. 
 

Even paraprofessional positions, such as classroom assistant , in a public school,  require a minimum of a high school degree, which she does not have. Our local public school’s paraprofessionals all have, at minimum, 60 credits of college. Many of them hold an Associate Degree and are working towards their Bachelor Degree.

 

Our local paraprofessionals make between $18,000 and $24,000 per academic year. 

Does she have a GED (took me a minute to remember what it was called. I wanted to write IUD which would have been infinitely more useful to her over the last 12 years).

[Bassett Lady]

8 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Does she have a GED (took me a minute to remember what it was called. I wanted to write IUD which would have been infinitely more useful to her over the last 12 years).

I cannot find any mention/proof of a GED attained by Anna. 
 

As to an IUD, it also would have been useful, but in her particular case ABSTINENCE would have been preferable.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Bassett Lady

[HerNameIsBuffy]

22 minutes ago, Bassett Lady said:

I cannot find any mention/proof of a GED attained by Anna. 
 

As to an IUD, it also would have been useful, but in her particular case ABSTINENCE would have been preferable.

I knew a guy who said he was badly injured once when his girlfriends IUD strings were really hard, unbeknownst to him, and at the first thrust it cut the head of his penis so badly there was a lot of blood.  He was afraid of PIV intercourse for a long time afterwards, even once she had it removed.

I'd be okay if Josh got his penis good and sliced up before abstinence.

Edited February 4, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy

[EmmieJ]

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

And a Lori Alexander. It is easy to forget there are plenty of fundie women who are just as vile and hateful as the men. 

It is going to be nerve wracking if he gets a new trial. Anna apparently is fairly confident he will get it and they can shift the blame to someone else. 

I think the evidence presented at the first trial made a very solid case.  I haven't searched for or read the appeal brief, but if Josh's legal team does win on appeal and a new trial is ordered, I believe the outcome will be the same.  There is just too much evidence that shows he was the one who downloaded that content.  So JB will spend even more money on the appeal and if successful, another trial and more time for Josh's perversions and the Duggar family to be in the spotlight yet again.  Seems like a lose-lose proposition to me.  I hope that JB feels physical pain every time he has to write a check for the high-priced attorneys that are representing Josh - because I cannot imagine that Josh has much in the way of finances himself.  He may have flipped a few houses but it seems very unlikely that he came away with over a $1 million in profit.  He sure wasn't making bank at that pathetic car lot.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, EmmieJ said:

I think the evidence presented at the first trial made a very solid case.  I haven't searched for or read the appeal brief, but if Josh's legal team does win on appeal and a new trial is ordered, I believe the outcome will be the same.  There is just too much evidence that shows he was the one who downloaded that content.  So JB will spend even more money on the appeal and if successful, another trial and more time for Josh's perversions and the Duggar family to be in the spotlight yet again.  Seems like a lose-lose proposition to me.  I hope that JB feels physical pain every time he has to write a check for the high-priced attorneys that are representing Josh - because I cannot imagine that Josh has much in the way of finances himself.  He may have flipped a few houses but it seems very unlikely that he came away with over a $1 million in profit.  He sure wasn't making bank at that pathetic car lot.

I'm so baffled by their finances.  We all assume JB and M are paying the legal fees because Josh never seemed to have any money, but they just sold 5 acres of their own compound for about $45k.  If they're hurting for money that they have to parcel out their land for under 50k, how are they swinging the legal fees?

One of the biggest mysteries for me about fundies are their finances.  I read on here Jessa and Ben gifted his parents a trip to Scottland a few years ago, just bought a new house, yet she has no major sponsorships and he can't be making much as an associate pastor and JB's lackey.

Where does their money come from?  

[EmmieJ]

6 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Where does their money come from?

I sure would like to know!  We know that JB was keeping the TLC money until Derick pushed the issue and made him pay some for the time he and Jill were on the show.  I wonder if there was any similar arrangement made between JB and Jeremy, done very quietly.  I've been wondering how Jeremy and Jinger are affording their life in L.A.  But the TLC gravy train has ended.  JB looks well off on paper but I believe a great deal of his wealth is in properties he owns.  I presume he rents out a number of them to non-family members, so that would be a regular source of income.  He could have an investment portfolio - perhaps that generates a monthly income as well.  I think he leases some land to a cell phone company so they can have a tower placed there, so that is another source of monthly income.  

As to outgoing finances, who knows?  We presume that he is helping Anna financially, so that she can at least buy groceries and clothing, plus incidentals.  Are some of his sons employed by him?  I suspect some financial shenanigans because that is right up his (JB's) alley.  We'll probably never really know.

[Antimony]

Well, looks like this confirms my belief that Anna just doesn't believe he did it. I'm having a horrible day, but at least there is somebody out there being more stupid than me. Incredible. 

Also love that she just didn't even...make a good case for herself. In PR terms, linking a (apparently broken at first link?) to a court document that is long and dense is not really a convincing tale. I suppose she can't really just accuse Caleb out right, either. 

[Bassett Lady]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

She, like plenty of other women, is choosing a man over her children. When someone tells you who they are, believe them

This is so true. It took me a long time to understand that. When someone shows you who they are, believe them. 
 

When you see someone be dishonest, cruel, mean, selfish, sneaky, unprincipled, or shady, in one area, understand that they WILL do those same things in any area of their life. 
 

Also, if they will do something with you, they will do it to you. So, if they will cheat on a romantic partner with you they will also cheat on you. 
 

I worry about their courtship model because the unmarried couple never get to see how the other person freely behaves. 
 

I wanted to wait for a sexual relationship until after marriage, and shared my feelings with my boyfriend (who is  now my husband) and he not only said he understood, but then his behavior backed up the verbal agreement. He didn’t push my physical boundaries nor did he try to cajole me, or shame me, or harangue me into changing my mind. His words and actions were consistent and respectful. 
 

No big surprise, he has been a supportive and respectful husband. 
 

When they have a totally supervised courtship there is never a chance to see how they act of their own free will. 

Had Josh and Anna been able to spend time alone does anyone think he would have managed to behave in a way consistent with his professed beliefs? 

[ElizaB]

Thinking back to the time of Anna and Josh's courtship/engagement two things come to mind. 

1.) Was any of it really Anna's choice? 

2.) In Anna's eyes Josh was a celebrity. 

 

The first point being- the entire courtship and engagement was an agreement between Josh and Anna's father that she wasn't heavily involved in. Even their phone conversations were just group talks with their siblings. Then Anna was proposed to with a camera in her face by a man she didn't really know. Yes, she has absolutely made horrible choices since marrying him- but I am just not entirely sure how much actually marrying him was much of a choice by her. 

The second point- in their world the Duggar family is complete celebrity. These people don't watch a ton of T.V or listen to popular music. The Duggar family had a TV show that many fundi families watched (maybe the only thing they did), were well known for their many kids, and were often keynote speakers at ATI conferences. To a lot of these young fundi kids the Duggars were HUGE. So when Josh took a liking to Anna it must have seemed like the mega celebrity was bringing her into his world. She could have easily got sucked in. 

 

**Now I am NOT defending Anna's choices since marrying Josh- I am simply saying why I think she married him in the first place.

[JermajestyDuggar]

If we are talking 19 year old Anna courting Josh, I would likely have some empathy. Same for the other young and naive fundie women who married in their teens or very early 20s and weren’t sure of what they were in for. But Anna Duggar will be 34 in June. Thirty fucking four. She’s a grown woman. She has lived in DC, she has access to the internet, she must have access to money in a bank account (who knows how much), she has the support of at least some family members, and she’s given birth to 7 kids. She’s lived. She’s aware. She’s choosing to live in denial. She’s making all of her choices as an adult. My only hope is that Josh gets 10+ years and he gets out too late to have more kids. I don’t hold out hope that she will ever leave him. 

[Bassett Lady]

1 minute ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Thirty fucking four

I can just see that, written, in icing, on a very non-fundy  birthday cake. 
 

Yes, the absolutely-adult Anna must start acting like an adult, take responsibility for her own choices, accept reality, and begin making choices for her children that prioritize their safety, health, and education. 
 

Anna is now an adult by every conceivable measure and must now start to behave as such. 
 

The cult needs to STOP marrying off uneducated and naive “on paper only” adults. 

[theotherelise]

As always, I'm just so very sad for the M kids. Even if you disregard all the terrible parts of the religious cult, this is such an unhealthy environment for them to grow up in. They are going to be told to believe a lie and will not be able to process what has actually happened. And how long will Anna let the kids think that their dad is going to come home soon? I am so sad for the day Mackynzie finds out the truth. I want freedom for the Ms. 

[waltraute]

Seven children, several sexual misconduct scandals, and a CSAM conviction later...WHY she married him doesn't factor into my assessment of Anna at all. She is staying - that's all I can see.

ETA: Oops, I see I've cross-posted with @JermajestyDuggar .

Edited February 4, 2022 by waltraute

[HerNameIsBuffy]

15 minutes ago, waltraute said:

Seven children, several sexual misconduct scandals, and a CSAM conviction later...WHY she married him doesn't factor into my assessment of Anna at all. She is staying - that's all I can see.

ETA: Oops, I see I've cross-posted with @JermajestyDuggar .

Exactly.  I mean we all feel bad for the kids in this cult, but once they are fully fledged adults that's not the point anymore.

We all feel bad for the M kids but if they grow up to abuse their kids or marry men like their dad and keep their kids with them they aren't going to get a pass either.  Adults are responsible for their choices and if not by their 30s after 7 kids then when?

 

[EmmieJ]

47 minutes ago, ElizaB said:

The first point being- the entire courtship and engagement was an agreement between Josh and Anna's father that she wasn't heavily involved in. Even their phone conversations were just group talks with their siblings. Then Anna was proposed to with a camera in her face by a man she didn't really know. Yes, she has absolutely made horrible choices since marrying him- but I am just not entirely sure how much actually marrying him was much of a choice by her. 

 

44 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

If we are talking 19 year old Anna courting Josh, I would likely have some empathy. Same for the other young and naive fundie women who married in their teens or very early 20s and weren’t sure of what they were in for. But Anna Duggar will be 34 in June. Thirty fucking four. She’s a grown woman. She has lived in DC, she has access to the internet, she must have access to money in a bank account (who knows how much), she has the support of at least some family members, and she’s given birth to 7 kids. She’s lived. She’s aware. She’s choosing to live in denial. She’s making all of her choices as an adult. My only hope is that Josh gets 10+ years and he gets out too late to have more kids. I don’t hold out hope that she will ever leave him. 

When I rewatched the footage of Josh's surprise proposal to Anna - yes, she looked totally taken by surprise and somewhat shell shocked.  I'm pretty sure she had no idea Josh was (supposedly) interested in her, and they hadn't been courting at all.  In her life experience at that time, it was clear that her parents knew of this proposal and approved, Josh Duggar was the oldest son of the fundie famous Duggar family (an approved celebrity), and she had been raised to want one thing only:  get married young and have as many babies as possible.  So of course, she said yes.

But it also seems to me that despite her initial awkward uncertainty of what the hell was happening, she fairly easily transitioned into excitement at the impending wedding, and enjoyed being featured on the tv show.  Then when Josh got the job in D.C., her life was even more exciting.  I think she thoroughly enjoyed being semi-famous, and the perks that came with marrying into the Duggar family at that time.  When the initial Ashley Madison scandal not only cost Josh his cushy D.C. job, but cast Josh and family off the tv show (for the most part), she was bitter about it.  She's been thinking that Josh (and by extension, her) have been treated unfairly ever since then.  She isn't going to be reflecting on her life choices anytime soon.  She got hooked on being fundie famous and is bitter that it has seemingly come to an end.  She can't accept it.  Too bad for her.

[LilMissMetaphor]

I'm always baffled by the amount of fanfic on the Duggar forums in particular....ten pages ago someone was all "I bet Anna can't wait to have a break from sex with Josh"...Um, besides being gross, what possible reason would you have to believe this? They have eleventy children, not all conceived pre-scandal, either.  She's probably DYING to DTD with him again.

[backyard sylph]

I did a search for Anna on Twitter because I didn't want to go to her actual account. People are nearly uniforming @ing her with frustration and some anger that she is sticking to this pointless narrative. They won't get through to her, of course, but I understand the impulse. 

[Smee]

29 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I'm always baffled by the amount of fanfic on the Duggar forums in particular....ten pages ago someone was all "I bet Anna can't wait to have a break from sex with Josh"...Um, besides being gross, what possible reason would you have to believe this? They have eleventy children, not all conceived pre-scandal, either.  She's probably DYING to DTD with him again.

While I think Anna has made it clear all the discussion about her leaving is wishful thinking, this one isn’t out of the realm of possibility. Fundie women can’t say no and Josh is a self-proclaimed sex addict, so the number of children doesn’t indicate anything much about HER libido or sexual interest in him.

 I’m Anna’s age and I married young (21), in love with the idea of being a wife and mother. I was excited to have all my kids and would have loved more if my husband hadn’t been against it. I left him last year and not having to have sex anymore has been one of my favourite things.

[ifosterkittens]

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

My suspicion is that David may 100 percent believe Josh did this,  but like Jim Bob he wants to get back control of Josh. Josh isn’t going to sit quiet for years and I bet they know it. Who knows what awful things were done to teen Josh at that training center. Eventually Josh is bound to start blabbing all the secrets to random people in prison who will then leak it out. I bet The Sun is just dying to get the scoop from Josh on what his family was like and what IBLP did to him all those years ago. 

Would anyone care what Josh had to say if it wasn't substantiated by someone else? Josh isn't credible. The IBLP documentary by Amazon will likely have lots of credible sources, and Josh could say he experienced such abuse or knew whatever awful thing comes to light, but alone his story isn't one I'm willing to believe. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

29 minutes ago, backyard sylph said:

I did a search for Anna on Twitter because I didn't want to go to her actual account. People are nearly uniforming @ing her with frustration and some anger that she is sticking to this pointless narrative. They won't get through to her, of course, but I understand the impulse. 

On twitter is there a way for cowards like her to block the feedback so they don't see it?  I know she had her insta comments turned off.

I know people can do what they want with their SM and I'm being unreasonable, but I'm irritated she put that out there while blocking feedback.  If she feels so strongly about it she should be able to defend it.

[Cam]

Yes, I think the lure of the TV show hooked a number of the Dugger kid spouses to hop on board.

I’m wondering about Michele. She and JB issued a few joint statements. But she did not attend trial. In the Christmas video Jessa just posted, she and JB are not shown together in the footage we see. There was no  joyful (golf course humping) bond displayed between them like TLC always branded them. JB is in numerous scenes interacting with others but Michele is only seen by herself from behind briefly. Then she goes to California to visit Jinger with her kids and no JB. I think it was Jinjer who posted the most outspoken statment after the trial. Does Michele have a stronger belief of Josh’s guilt than JB and Anna and being a fundie wife, just not able to voice it? 
 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

20 minutes ago, Cam said:

Yes, I think the lure of the TV show hooked a number of the Dugger kid spouses to hop on board.

I’m wondering about Michele. She and JB issued a few joint statements. But she did not attend trial. In the Christmas video Jessa just posted, she and JB are not shown together in the footage we see. There was no  joyful (golf course humping) bond displayed between them like TLC always branded them. JB is in numerous scenes interacting with others but Michele is only seen by herself from behind briefly. Then she goes to California to visit Jinger with her kids and no JB. I think it was Jinjer who posted the most outspoken statment after the trial. Does Michele have a stronger belief of Josh’s guilt than JB and Anna and being a fundie wife, just not able to voice it? 
 

I have never felt Michelle was anything less than an equal partner in their marriage and the headship nonsense was their preferred dynamic and played up to be performative in their culture and for the show.  If anything JB is her figurehead.

I'm not sure why people still think JB and/or Michelle think Josh is innocent.  He is their child.  Think about it, if your child was convicted of this and you truly believed they were innocent would your statement have not been about a miscarriage of justice?  About how he was wrongly convicted and you're going to fight this to bring the truth to light?  That yes, there were horrible incidents in the past but he's not guilty of this and you are sick he's being punished for a crime he didn't commit.

If this was your child, wrongly convicted, would you have a Christmas celebration with all and sundry?  Would you have an ugly sweater party?  Maybe a low key thing for the kids, but would you invite outsiders to your NYE bash and post the festivities online?

No parent would do that if they felt their child was sitting in jail for a heinous crime they didn't commit.  

They have given absolutely no indication they feel he is innocent so Idk where this fan fiction is coming from.

Edited February 4, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy

[EmCatlyn]

2 minutes ago, Smee said:

While I think Anna has made it clear all the discussion about her leaving is wishful thinking, this one isn’t out of the realm of possibility. Fundie women can’t say no and Josh is a self-proclaimed sex addict, so the number of children doesn’t indicate anything much about HER libido or sexual interest in him.

 I’m Anna’s age and I married young (21), in love with the idea of being a wife and mother. I was excited to have all my kids and would have loved more if my husband hadn’t been against it. I left him last year and not having to have sex anymore has been one of my favourite things.

No one can really know how Anna really feels about sex with Josh, but I am glad you brought up this up.  It is simplistic to assume that, if she is defending him and wanting him back, it means that she was happy with their sex life and wants to resume it.  She could very well have had a great sex life, but it is also possible that their sex life was a burden and that though she misses him in other ways, she is relieved that she is getting a vacation from being sexually available all the time.

One of my father’s brothers married a woman who was brought up very strictly and, as my uncle put it to my dad, “not prepared for marriage.”  Without going into details, their sex-life was limited and not pleasurable to either of them because my uncle was a sensitive man who didn’t really enjoy making love with someone who was just “doing her duty.”

My point is that my aunt was totally committed to my uncle, defended him when he made stupid business moves (blamed others for his mistakes) and hated being separated.  She just didn’t like sex.

Given how Anna was brought up and how Josh is not a “sensitive man” and was probably not considerate of Anna in bed (since he wasn’t considerate anywhere else), it’s a reasonable guess that she might miss his lovemaking least of all.

Their sex life is their business.  But it probably has very little to do with what Anna says about Josh and their marriage.  Her bizarre loyalty is almost certainly not rooted in sexual compatibility. 😉🙃😉