(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 49: Dialing More Numbers than Mommy's Robo-Calls

[Beermeet]

2 hours ago, Pleiades_06 said:

I think people are projecting how THEY would feel on her shoes.

I‘ve noticed a few posts on this thread suggest that lack of education/lack of intelligence are what led Anna/Priscilla to make the choices they did. If Priscilla really does have a learning disability, it’s incredibly ableist to assume that would lead her to join a cult. Just want to point out many traditionally educated, intelligent people make bad moral choices-the Bates parents met in college, Zsu Anderson was at Uni when she met PP, etc. I wish education   was the answer but it’s only part of the equation. 

The Keller girls were born into the cult. 

[zee_four]

13 hours ago, Bassett Lady said:

I can just see that, written, in icing, on a very non-fundy  birthday cake. 
 

Yes, the absolutely-adult Anna must start acting like an adult, take responsibility for her own choices, accept reality, and begin making choices for her children that prioritize their safety, health, and education. 
 

Anna is now an adult by every conceivable measure and must now start to behave as such. 
 

The cult needs to STOP marrying off uneducated and naive “on paper only” adults. 

My 34th birthday is in July if anyone on FJ wants to send me a cake... 

9 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Oh for me, this is one of my biggest wonders about these folks. Sure JB could have amassed money by living frugally, but having 19 kids plus spending money on political campaigns is NOT LIVING FRUGALLY. Could JB have legally amassed the amount of money to support 10 growing families (house, clothe, insure, plus pay for transportation costs and utilities on all those homes), not to mention planes? And we know JB and M are rather lax when it comes to rentals, upkeep and occupancy. He might be a cunning and angry man, but I do not see him as tenacious or particularly driven. I don’t know, the math seems fuzzy to me. I would love to see JB’s financials and also to have a professional assess them for any misappropriation or fraud.

Someone here mentioned the political campaign might have been a way to launder money for Smuggar's legal defenses. I mean any lawyer worth their salt expects a deposit based on the severity if the case*, so a big one in Smug's, but as the trial went on I'm sure they'd want more than whatever OfMeech wheeled and dealed originally.

If it were anyone else is in the world I would believe that is the ONLY reason to put yourself out there on a political ticket, especially claiming "family values" when there's such publicity about what your oldest golden child did involving CSAM. But.... TIJBWTA and he might honestly have his Lego Aquanet coiffed helmet head so far up that tight okole of his he -actually- thought it was a good idea. :shrugs: 

Edited February 5, 2022 by zee_four
*originally autocorrected to car which is relevant but in a different way...

[EmCatlyn]

9 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Am I the only one who couldn't give less of a shit about how satisfied Anna was sexually?  If hated it, so what?  If she misses it because they shared rule 34 of doing in slipping around in a tub of chickenetti getting the Velveeta all up in their backdoors who cares?   If Josh couldn't find Satan's doorbell with a map and a flashlight who cares?  

Honestly, if anyone's sex life is totally besides the point it's a monster who gets off on torturing children and his enabler.

A lot of parents have to forgo sex when separated or split up and no one cares because they sell batteries everywhere.  

Not bitching at you, I've posted my own hypotheticals about her life that are equally irrelevant, but just to the concept that whether or not she misses sex with him makes me kind of sick given we know what he fantasized about and that consensual, mutually enjoyable sex with an adult woman wasn't topping his list.

 

What interests me is the way many people will link sex with how Anna feels about Josh (usually to imply that she can’t possibly want to have sex with him).  I think we need to separate Anna’s obvious commitment to Josh-her-husband from her sexual feelings (if she has any).  

As for Josh, I don’t know what he fantasizes when he is with Anna (or anyone else, or by himself) and I sure as hell don’t want to think of it.  

 

[formergothardite]

7 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

My speculation is that I think she psychologically benefits from the cult teaching. It is much more spiritual to tell herself she is obeying God by submitting to authority rather than deal with the complexity of boundaries and what it means to have married a predator. She might have cult grounds for separation (divorce probably depends on how they define infidelity, I imagine), but I believe the broader cult teaching gives bonus suffering kudos to women who stay with abusers.

I’m not sure we can blame Anna deciding to loudly and proudly defend a child predator entirely on the cult. If she desired to protect her children she absolutely, positively could use the teachings of IBLP to do so. IBLP gives men a bunch of chances to repent and change their ways, but in the end if they don’t they are to be left in the hands of the authorities. Josh is not repenting and is currently locked up. She could go all “you left your hedge of protection and God is going to make your life miserable until you admit what you did and change” if she wanted to. She doesn’t want to. 

Anna isn’t seeming to think that she gets an extra head pat from Jesus if she stays with a monster who is a danger to her children. She is making it very clear she rejects all evidence and views Josh as innocent. There is no evidence that she views this as suffering for Jesus by standing by an abuser. She is saying no matter the facts, she believes he is innocent and she wants him home. 

[Mama Mia]

14 hours ago, SassyPants said:

If these 2, who married as teens and went on tp have 19 children are financial wizards, those skills would be priceless in today”s society. They could start an enterprise teaching other undereducated prolific procreators how to do the same. I am not joking here, if the Duggars’ financial earnings are above board and they are as successful as some think, the bulk of society is doing it all wrong.

I think people have laid out how they did it pretty well. They lived very cheap, bought cheap properties in an extremely low cost area and scrimped and saved as the properties started bringing in revenue and bought more properties. The cell phone towers were a huge lucky/shrewd break. The smartest thing they’ve done, imo, is have their income producing investments be things that are also useable and tangible - meaning they can be both used and re-sold. It’s flexible. And then training the kids in the skills that make those assets more valuable/sustainable. They have houses. Grown kids can live in houses. You need food, rental money is coming in to buy the food. The houses need maintenance, your family knows how to do that. Same with cars. It’s steady.  The TLC money and speaking gigs added a big level of extras and gave them cool trips and better clothes, but I don’t think the basics would have changed without TLC. Maybe a smaller Big House - but they were presumably already building that. Maybe not the planes. Instead of Jessa making a living off being a social media person, which does pay well, and why not? - she’d be living close to the same life, but being the main real estate broker for the family while Ben was driving Uber and Youth Pastoring. 
 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

13 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

They weren’t courting at all? Didn’t they spend time together first before he showed up and ambushed her at the restaurant?

It was long-distance, and not as formal as the later made-for-TV courtships, but Josh had very much been talking to Anna and her father with the goal of marriage. I think there had been visits after they met and liked each other at Big Sandy. Anna knew that her parents wouldn’t let her get married until she turned 20, so she knew it was coming up soon. It’s in the Duggars’ first book, presented as a role model. That really backfired on them, didn’t it?

 

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think being in a cult has some part of why Anna is standing with Josh, but I dont think it is the only reason. Ive heard lots of times where mainsteam, non fundie people have had their kids taken off them because despite being warned against it by CPS, they chose their pedophile partner over their kids and refused to end their relationship and not let them in the house or around the children. This could be Anna's future if he gets a short enough sentence that there's still minor kids in the home when he gets out.

I dont understand it. Why would anyone, especially a parent, want to associate with a pedophile? Does she have no maternal instinct at all? Does she honestly, 100% believe he is innocent? Even after being in court every day and hearing the evidence? I hope one day she sees the light and leaves him before he gets out.

I think Anna is the only one who believes Josh is innocent or is defending him. I think Michelle and JimBob know he did it, they only paid for his defence and didnt cooperate with the court because they didnt want him going to jail and ruining the family's reputation. They know what a monster Josh is, they'd just rather nobody knew about it and have been brushing it under the rug since he was a teenager. I dont think any of his siblings believe he is innocent, especially the older ones who were either molested by him or were old enough to understand what that meant when it happened. I think even the ones who arent outright speaking against him are only doing it to stay on the good side of their parents or because theyve been conditioned since childhood to not talk about Josh's sins. Im sure there are many more skeletons in the Duggar closet, and most of those are Josh's (but tbh I think there's also dodgy financial stuff going on too).

[mpheels]

3 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

I think people have laid out how they did it pretty well. They lived very cheap, bought cheap properties in an extremely low cost area and scrimped and saved as the properties started bringing in revenue and bought more properties. The cell phone towers were a huge lucky/shrewd break. The smartest thing they’ve done, imo, is have their income producing investments be things that are also useable and tangible - meaning they can be both used and re-sold. It’s flexible. And then training the kids in the skills that make those assets more valuable/sustainable. They have houses. Grown kids can live in houses. You need food, rental money is coming in to buy the food. The houses need maintenance, your family knows how to do that. Same with cars. It’s steady.  The TLC money and speaking gigs added a big level of extras and gave them cool trips and better clothes, but I don’t think the basics would have changed without TLC. Maybe a smaller Big House - but they were presumably already building that. Maybe not the planes. Instead of Jessa making a living off being a social media person, which does pay well, and why not? - she’d be living close to the same life, but being the main real estate broker for the family while Ben was driving Uber and Youth Pastoring. 
 

Right. I think it’s easy to overestimate their cost of living, largely because most people in the US are used to spending 25% or more of our income on housing. They had to pay rent for a bit when they sold one residence before the big house was ready, and for a few months in Little Rock when Josie was born. Otherwise, they haven’t had a monthly housing payment to speak of.

[SassyPants]

Where would they get the cash to purchase multiple commercial buildings without utilizing bank mortgages? And support double digit numbers of children at the same? The life they were living must have been awful, and I would also question the logic and reasoning of the adults (IF THEY TRULY ARE WEALTHY) who would have been plowing cash into real estate and political campaigns all at the same time when there was documented food scarcity within their home. Documentation = Michelle mentioning meals containing only rice and Jill mentioning hiding in the bathroom and eating food she had hoarded. Yes, plenty of people live on rice and/or beans alone (when eaten together is a nutritional meal), but most of these folks likely aren’t do so by choice.

[neuroticcat]

13 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Where would they get the cash to purchase multiple commercial buildings without utilizing bank mortgages? And support double digit numbers of children at the same? The life they were living must have been awful, and I would also question the logic and reasoning of the adults (IF THEY TRULY ARE WEALTHY) who would have been plowing cash into real estate and political campaigns all at the same time when there was documented food scarcity within their home. Documentation = Michelle mentioning meals containing only rice and Jill mentioning hiding in the bathroom and eating food she had hoarded. Yes, plenty of people live on rice and/or beans alone (when eaten together is a nutritional meal), but most of these folks likely aren’t do so by choice.

They explain it in their first book. They really did live by “buy used and save the difference” and basically flipped up. So they bought their first house - I think it was a foreclosed fixer upper or something and lived incredibly lean - JB worked multiple jobs towing and at a gas station market and M ran the car business. When they owned their house outright they sold it and immediately reinvested in a better house. They did his again and again, so every time they sold something they would have the cash to reinvest. They did this with everything - vehicles bought at auction, construction equipment, etc. As they both said, you make your money when you buy it, so they bought things dirt cheap like the disgusting foreclosures shown on the show, fixed them up, and then made money. They also lucked out with things like the show and the cell tower.

In early days they ran the car lot out of their front living room and M would keep the kids in the back bedroom when a customer came, and it sounds like JB was gone working a lot. I remember M laughingly explaining that when they made some money once she really wanted a new washing machine but JB bought some bizarre construction excavator or something. She was sad but appreciated his wise investing, etc. etc. I imagine financial strain also contributed to the laundry room meltdown.

The financial strategy wasn’t just only their idea, it was actively taught by IBLP and JB used to pitch the Jim Simmons money seminar to everyone. I think they just really aggressively and successfully lived out this philosophy. Once they were on the show, any extras were paid for by TLC which also was pretty shrewd in my opinion. Sure, they’ve had day to day expenses, but they live pretty moderately in low cost of living Arkansas. They can buy their cars at auction, buy discount food, get real estate/contractor rates. They own their properties. They probably pay very little in taxes because of so many dependents/child tax credits. I imagine they work out rates with dentists or doctors. Who knows? Maybe even TLC paid for braces so it could be on a show.

I do think it probably was an awful day to day experience and probably felt like poverty even if they had big bank accounts. The early pre TLC shows record that. There were no special extras, food from a can, very little personal items in the home, thrift store shopping and kickball for fun. They probably would have still built their house with cash but it would have taken forever without TLC. The show changed their lives dramatically - as it did for the Bates family. I don’t think they would have been as wealthy as they are now without the show,  it I do honk they would have provided for minimal needs. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by neuroticcat

[neuroticcat]

9 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I’m not sure we can blame Anna deciding to loudly and proudly defend a child predator entirely on the cult. If she desired to protect her children she absolutely, positively could use the teachings of IBLP to do so. IBLP gives men a bunch of chances to repent and change their ways, but in the end if they don’t they are to be left in the hands of the authorities. Josh is not repenting and is currently locked up. She could go all “you left your hedge of protection and God is going to make your life miserable until you admit what you did and change” if she wanted to. She doesn’t want to. 

Anna isn’t seeming to think that she gets an extra head pat from Jesus if she stays with a monster who is a danger to her children. She is making it very clear she rejects all evidence and views Josh as innocent. There is no evidence that she views this as suffering for Jesus by standing by an abuser. She is saying no matter the facts, she believes he is innocent and she wants him home. 

I am not blaming her choices on the cult - she is the one responsible for them - but I think the cult offers insight into why she seems to be making a choice that makes no sense to most people outside of it. I am speculating here that religious belief is tied up to every decision for devout cult members - I don’t see that as a pass for her.

Also, we don’t know if Josh repented. He could have said he did, and she could have decided to forgive him. She could be following the verse about Christian wives staying with unbelieving husbands to “win them over.” She could think she will save him if she’s loyal enough. She could think he didn’t do it. She could have justified it in a million ways, but I think that unless she deconstructs from cult teaching any decision she makes going forward is inseparable from her religous motivation. I mean IBLP spiritualized everything. Without therapy or deconversion, why would we expect her to somehow think like the outside world does?

In her world, victim does in fact equal extra head pats. Leaving, even for the children’s sake - though I’m not sure why anyone would expect ATI people to prioritize children’s well being - would equal selfishness.

[onekidanddone]

I don’t think Josh repented because in his sick mind he hasn’t done anything wrong 

[formergothardite]

34 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

her world, victim does in fact equal extra head pats.

I'm not disagreeing that there are people who would give her head pats, but at this point in IBLP I strongly suspect there are a hell of a lot of folks who are giving her the side eye for sticking up for Josh. The IBLP of the 60s and 70s and even 80s and 90s isn't the IBLP of today. 

What I'm pointing out is that there is zero sign Anna right now, views herself as a victim who is only staying because she feels a sense of religious obligation. All signs point to her refusing to believe any evidence that Josh is a monster  and that she will do nothing to protect her children if she gets Josh back. And in that sense she is like way, way too many women. This could have absolutely nothing to do with her religion, she could just be one of those women who put a man over their kids. 

Anna is telling us with her words and actions that she rejects any proof her husband did terrible things and that she will stand by him no matter what the authorities show her. There is zero signs that she is only doing this out of a sense of obligation. Until she says differently we should take her at her word that she is behaving this way because thinks he is innocent. 

 

3 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

I don’t think Josh repented because in his sick mind he hasn’t done anything wrong 

And part or repenting is accepting the punishment which he is clearly not doing. 

[onekidanddone]

I’ll add that even if JB and Jshell know he did it their cult teaches that there is no victim. So in a sense they know but they don’t care

[formergothardite]

What is it about Anna that makes people start coming up with reasons and excuses for her horrible behavior? Jill Rod who had just as warped of a childhood as Anna and who was married off as a barely legal teen bride to an older, more worldly man who is a shit husband never gets "poor Jill, she is so brainwashed" comments. Or posts about how she needs therapy and to deconstruct. People fully blame Jill for being horrible person. It is weird that Anna is a grown ass fundie woman who has spent years spewing hate and yet she doesn't get treated like other fundie women. If Jill Rod defended a convicted pedophile no one would be giving her any sympathy.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

What is it about Anna that makes people start coming up with reasons and excuses for her horrible behavior? Jill Rod who had just as warped of a childhood as Anna and who was married off as a barely legal teen bride to an older, more worldly man who is a shit husband never gets "poor Jill, she is so brainwashed" comments. Or posts about how she needs therapy and to deconstruct. People fully blame Jill for being horrible person. It is weird that Anna is a grown ass fundie woman who has spent years spewing hate and yet she doesn't get treated like other fundie women. If Jill Rod defended a convicted pedophile no one would be giving her any sympathy.

I think a huge part of it is personality. Anna doesn’t constantly talk about how she’s more godly than others. She doesn’t shame others for wearing pants. She doesn’t crash random children’s funerals. I’m not saying Anna is better than Jill. I’m just saying Jill’s personality rubs people really wrong. It’s easier to believe bad stuff about someone when you hate their personality. Anna is much quieter than Jill too. So there’s a lot of room for speculation. Jill posts constantly. She leaves us very little time to speculate because she posts so often. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[Tatar-tot]

 

23 hours ago, SassyPants said:

If these 2, who married as teens and went on tp have 19 children are financial wizards, those skills would be priceless in today”s society. They could start an enterprise teaching other undereducated prolific procreators how to do the same. I am not joking here, if the Duggars’ financial earnings are above board and they are as successful as some think, the bulk of society is doing it all wrong.

The key to their financial success is TLC.  Prior to the TLC bailout they were POVERTY STRICKEN.

Edited February 6, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy
double posting within - fixed formatting

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

They explain it in their first book. They really did live by “buy used and save the difference” and basically flipped up.

Because they said something in a book doesn't make it true.  I consider fact coming from either of them about as related to the truth as most of WOACBs posts, as in not at all.

2 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I am not blaming her choices on the cult - she is the one responsible for them - but I think the cult offers insight into why she seems to be making a choice that makes no sense to most people outside of it.

You are because you keep bringing them into it ever after someone here who was in the same cult repeatedly says it doesn't apply in this situation.  I don't understand why you're so desperate to cling to this point when many, many fucked up women who are not in cults make the same sick choice of man over children.

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Anna doesn’t constantly talk about how she’s more godly than others.

Tell that to the women she shouted at outside clinics, the protests she brought her children to.  

[Antipatriarch]

On 2/4/2022 at 5:41 PM, backyard sylph said:

She can in a way, but if her tweet is public, then anyone can just stick her name in a tweet about it and say what they like. She can sort of block direct replies, but not entirely. Other than if she made it wholly private, there are several ways around any cut-offs she'd like to try. I mean, it would be easy for her to just ignore them all, anyway, by just never looking at notifications or her own thread. 

Most people know to get screenshots quickly of a tweet they think the author might delete or that might be banned, so at least she can never pretend it wasn't put out there. People did that with TFG every time until he was banned. 

That's right. The ability to choose who can reply to a tweet is a relatively new Twitter feature. (link) It gives you the ability to "moderate" that tweet thread, so you and others who read it won't see opinions you don't agree with. As you say, it's easy to quote-tweet or just screenshot if you want to say something about someone else's tweet, but they won't see it unless they go searching.

[JermajestyDuggar]

8 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Tell that to the women she shouted at outside clinics, the protests she brought her children to.

I didn’t know she did that.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

What is it about Anna that makes people start coming up with reasons and excuses for her horrible behavior? Jill Rod who had just as warped of a childhood as Anna and who was married off as a barely legal teen bride to an older, more worldly man who is a shit husband never gets "poor Jill, she is so brainwashed" comments. Or posts about how she needs therapy and to deconstruct. People fully blame Jill for being horrible person. It is weird that Anna is a grown ass fundie woman who has spent years spewing hate and yet she doesn't get treated like other fundie women. If Jill Rod defended a convicted pedophile no one would be giving her any sympathy.

Anna appears to be entirely reliant on her in-laws, and very much acts like a dependent offspring of theirs. For all of her faults, Jill Rod is much more of an adult.

[formergothardite]

Anna also tried to take over black history month and turn it into an anti-abortion thing.
She may not have crashed a funeral but she is currently defending a convicted pedophile. So I think we can all start treating her no differently than Jill Rod. 

[EmCatlyn]

12 hours ago, formergothardite said:

…

Anna isn’t seeming to think that she gets an extra head pat from Jesus if she stays with a monster who is a danger to her children. She is making it very clear she rejects all evidence and views Josh as innocent. There is no evidence that she views this as suffering for Jesus by standing by an abuser. She is saying no matter the facts, she believes he is innocent and she wants him home. 

Thanks for your insights. As you note,  Anna’s post has made it pretty clear that she is not sticking by Josh because she believes it her duty regardless of what he has done.  It’s good to know IBLP does give someone in her situation options.

Anna is clearly saying that she doesn’t believe he is guilty.  However, I don’t think she is saying “no matter the facts.”  I think she is saying, “everyone else has the facts wrong.”

Denial and self-delusion seem to be the biggest problem here. Maybe it is the only way she can function.  If she had to confront that she was married and bound to a man who watched the CSAM found on his computer, she might not be able to bear it.

 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

What is it about Anna that makes people start coming up with reasons and excuses for her horrible behavior? Jill Rod who had just as warped of a childhood as Anna and who was married off as a barely legal teen bride to an older, more worldly man who is a shit husband never gets "poor Jill, she is so brainwashed" comments. Or posts about how she needs therapy and to deconstruct. People fully blame Jill for being horrible person. It is weird that Anna is a grown ass fundie woman who has spent years spewing hate and yet she doesn't get treated like other fundie women. If Jill Rod defended a convicted pedophile no one would be giving her any sympathy.

I think people formed opinions about Anna when they first saw her on the show as an awkward fundie girl not yet out of her teens. Jill Rodrigues is a thoroughly despicable, vile person known for taking happy selfies in front of the caskets of dead children she only knew through the tragic news of their deaths. First impressions stick.

As for Anna the Enabler, I don't think she cares whether Josh is guilty or not. "At least I have a husband", no longer has one for all intents, and she wants him back no matter what. I don't know for sure how JRod might handle the same situation, but if I had to guess, I'd say she'd start out similarly. But I can see JRod moving on with her life a lot faster than Anna will. Anna could not have had a nice life with that selfish, useless pig, but she had a husband and now she doesn't. That's all that matters to her.     

[patsymae]

On 2/4/2022 at 9:03 PM, onekidanddone said:

They weren’t courting at all? Didn’t they spend time together first before he showed up and ambushed her at the restaurant?

But weren't the Duggars also seeking out ANY wife for Josh? Bobbye Holt said that both sets of parents assumed Josh and their daughter's courtship or whatever it was would lead to marriage, and that was when the daughter was 14 years old! so the Holts had sense enough to at least pull the plug on that, but it left JB and M with the need to find a substitute in a hurry, at least in their minds. No doubt in my mind they trolled til they hit on the Kellers, and once they knew the Kellers were amenable, it could have been any Keller daughter.

PS--Anna is disgusting. Full stop.