Remnant Fellowship 20: Popping Popcorn, Waiting for the Bewigged Tiger King....

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 minute ago, formergothardite said:

And Joe has been a part of her life for so long. Didn't she say she was 16 when they started dating. Even though he was awful, it still must be emotionally weird to lose someone who had been in her life since she was a teenager. 

It seemed their relationship was extremely broken up. Like they would be together for awhile, then break up for awhile, then date again, then break up. That kind of relationship sucks so much. Because you never really feel like it’s over. But she probably finally felt it was over when he lied and accused her of sexually abusing their daughter. What an insanely fucked up thing to do. 

[DarkSideofHeaven]

23 minutes ago, Destiny said:

I need show to move on from the Smith case. I intentionally do not pay close attention to cases like these because it’s too close to my own childhood. What Sonya said was very reminiscent of my childhood and to this day, into my middle age, I can’t be in a room with a closed door. 

So far, the only thing that was new info for me was the fact that the Smiths might have killed two of their kids. I missed that fact, probably intentionally. 

I really want to hear her rationale for this belief, and the website is too damn convoluted for me to make sense out of it. 

What has me scratching my head is that the documentary mentions their baby died of SIDS. I remember clearly at the streaming of summer camp that the infant died of pneumonia. When did the story change? 

[Destiny]

What has me scratching my head is that the documentary mentions their baby died of SIDS. I remember clearly at the streaming of summer camp that the infant died of pneumonia. When did the story change? 

I have no idea. I didn’t know about that child at all. I avoid discussions of child abuse as a rule so I only knew the bare bones of that story.

[RFsurvivor]

2 hours ago, Animosus said:

I went to the link and was checking out "The Truth about the Way Down Documentary" from RF.  The video titled "Freedom to Choose who you Marry" is more about addressing this forum since it wasn't mentioned at all in the documentary. 

That one made me wonder as well. It felt like admitting guilt to something before it happened! That wasn’t talked about in the documentary at all!

[Roscoe]

To me the Smith case is so heartbreaking. I think deep down they weren't especially cruel or hurtful people, but I think people often don't understand how pervasive the culture of corporal abuse runs in Southern evangelical circles. Many kids I grew up with (even outside of the church) were hit, spanked, paddled, and allowed to go hungry as "discipline". I've spoken to other RF kids had punishments similar to what happened to little Josef. During the early years of RF, corporal punishment was explicitly encouraged.

My parents did not hit or spank me at all until they joined RF and they only did so on behalf of leadership. As Gina Wilson in the documentary mentioned, these little kids were expected to be absolutely still and pay complete attention in up to 3 hour services. If a kid acted out or was wiggly or basically acted at all like a normal kid it was treated as an indictment of one's righteousness as a parent. Parents who "spared the rod" would be berated for allowing their kids to go to hell and told that by not hitting them, that parent was unfit and evil themselves.

I honestly believe little Josef Smith was probably neurodivergant and maybe autistic. I knew him briefly when we were children at camp and he had a ton of what I'd later recognize as self-soothing behaviors. The church did NOT believe in any mental health conditions and often reported that autistic children in the church were "healed" of their autism. I think Josef was constantly acting out because he had no support for his condition, but that was seen as demons by his parents. Joseph Smith often described his son as being possessed by a demon that leadership expected the parents to exorcise.

Now, I personally think the Smith's infant son, Maleek, did die from SIDS or pneumonia. But I think little Josef's behavior continued to deteriorate as a natural result of the entire family's grief (which must have been profound but also repressed due to the church's refusal to allow negative feelings to be processed). The family was then encouraged by leadership to escalate the "discipline" of Josef until it got to abuse that resulted in his death.

It's horrible to think about and I certainly don't excuse the Smith parents for what they did, but they were true RF believers who were doing what was suggested/commanded by the people they regarded as the emissaries of God. The thing that scares me is that it could have easily been my parents who could have done that. I was a very well-behaved (*extremely anxious*) child, but if I had been neurodivergant or less well behaved or had more of a "will," and Tedd Anger or Gwen or any one of those leaders had told my parents to beat me, lock me in a box, or lock me in a room for days they would have.

Any true-believer RF parent would have done whatever they were told and the church told them to abuse. To be honest, I'd put a majority of blame for Josef Smith's death directly on Gwen Shamblin's shoulders. The parents are still responsible of course, but they were so enthralled to her teaching and desperate to be "good Christian parents" of "perfect Remnant children" that they broke their son.

 

 

[throwaway9988]

My parents also followed RF leadership's advice and locked me in the spare bedroom with just a Bible as a form of discipline (they were too lazy to take everything out of my room just to put it all back later).  I was allowed out to use the bathroom or for meals but otherwise I spent the whole weekend in there.  At first I tried reading the Bible out of sheer boredom, but I stopped because I got to Numbers or something that was just too boring.  Then I figured out that if I slept all day, I could stay awake the whole night sneaking out of the room to grab the family laptop to play games and watch music videos until morning.  They eventually let me out of the spare room and didn't try that method of punishing me again. It was a small triumph that helped keep me going lol. What sparked this punishment, you may ask?  They overheard me talking on the phone to someone from school, talking about how my parents were "weird."  I think their punishment choice mostly served to prove my point.

 

1 hour ago, DarkSideofHeaven said:

What has me scratching my head is that the documentary mentions their baby died of SIDS. I remember clearly at the streaming of summer camp that the infant died of pneumonia. When did the story change? 

I'm not sure, but in the absence of other evidence I have to go along with the investigator who was interviewed by the documentary when he said the baby died of SIDS per the medical examiner.  SIDS is a bit of a catch-all term that in reality could have different causes for different babies. Many people think some cases of SIDS can be due to accidental smothering during co-sleeping, or a baby rolling over onto its face during its sleep and then not being strong enough to roll back in order to breathe. That's why recommendations to reduce the risk of SIDS include swaddling the baby and placing the baby on its back in a crib that is empty of pillows or loose blankets that could accidentally cover the baby's face if it moves a bit. Having pneumonia or a cold, even perhaps in mild or subclinical cases, can contribute to difficulties with breathing that increase the risk of SIDS occurring.

I can imagine how someone explaining what happened to the grieving parents might have said something like "breathing problem" and then SIDS could get misinterpreted into pneumonia by someone.  I don't actually know though...

Edited October 1, 2021 by throwaway9988

[SilverBeach]

Hmmm...it seems that the commentariat has taken almost a visceral dislike to Dan Gryder. I've been cringing reading some of the vitriol directed at him.

I think he came here in good faith. He intensely dislikes RF and Gwen (RIP). I intensely dislike RF and couldn't stand Gwen. FJ has been very disapproving of her and the RF cult, which is why he probably thought he would find kindred spirits here. So, I find the FJ hostility puzzling. FJ has some unique aspects compared to other online communities, and newcomers are usually corrected and given time to adjust without being treated too harshly. If you viewed any of his videos, you would see his tone is very dry and sarcastic. But he's not the enemy. Why assume the worst about the man? 

DG may have misunderstood that FJ does not engage in activism no matter how harmful some of the people and groups discussed here might be. But that doesn't make his objective to do as much as possible to help RF implode a bad thing, in my opinion. These threads are full of the hurt, harm, and destruction wrought by RF and Gwen. A few tasteless remarks doesn't nearly equate to the damage done by them. Nonetheless, I hope he moves on for his sake as he clearly isn't welcome, and I don't see him accomplishing much here.  

I intend to get an HBO trial as I must see the documentary, will probably set it up tomorrow because I can't wait! I hope the former RF members are not triggered too badly, and that the fallout doesn't affect their family members who are still in the cult. 

[SilverBeach]

I read that BS RF response, which is right out of the Scientology playbook. It's all lies, they say! There's nothing bad about RF or Gwen! It's a perfect organization that has done nothing but good! Excuse me while I go vomit. If it wasn't clear before that RF is a cult, this response makes it obvious. There is never any valid criticism of a cult, they are just perfect in their very distorted opinion. RF can't fall fast enough

[cookingbutterchicken]

7 hours ago, Jacked said:

Just want to let all the survivors know that I am sending all the good vibes. I can’t fathom what this documentary might be bringing up emotionally.  But I can let you know I see you. And I hear you.

I can’t get through the 3rd episode thinking of kids I know that grew up here! I love those kids so much!  My heart is breaking for those still in it and out who are dealing with this documentary!! ❤️🙏🏼

[throwaway9988]

21 minutes ago, Destiny said:

I really want to hear her rationale for this belief, and the website is too damn convoluted for me to make sense out of it. 

They have rearranged their website since the last time I checked (which was admittedly years ago), but this is where I found it: https://www.remnantfellowship.org/about-remnant-fellowship/the-essence-of-god-christ

I wrote out a summary of it (which is like 1/20th of the length of what RF wrote, and therefore still very long and boring) but I can save it until the conversation about the documentary finally hits a lull in a few days.

[Destiny]

1 minute ago, throwaway9988 said:

They have rearranged their website since the last time I checked (which was admittedly years ago), but this is where I found it: https://www.remnantfellowship.org/about-remnant-fellowship/the-essence-of-god-christ

I wrote out a summary of it (which is like 1/20th of the length of what RF wrote, and therefore still very long and boring) but I can save it until the conversation about the documentary finally hits a lull in a few days.

I’d be interested to read your version when you have a chance. I don’t think this was the link I had before, so I may try to read that tomorrow. I’m getting sleepy now. I find this belief to be one of their weirder theologies and I’m curious AF how they support it. 

[RFfamANON]

9 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Her rise in popularity was in the 90s. And to be honest, that seems like the perfect time in history to start a godly weight loss cult. I look back at the 90s and realize how completely insane it was about thinness. Look at all the popular shows. The women were expected to not only be thin, but a size zero thin.

I thought the same thing and I also thought about the fact that women were not allowed to teach/preach in the CoC and all of a sudden these women had someone like Gwen preaching to them and how hungry (pun intended)  they must have been to hear a women - one of their own, someone who understood them - speaking and preaching about God and His will for them. That had to be intoxicating. 

[Nonbeliever]

8 hours ago, Freedbygrace said:

We have just finished watching the documentary and glanced through some of the posts here. I agree with one post which said there wasn’t a lot new but I would clarify that it is so for people here on FJ or others who follow RF. I was amazed at time when in the church how many local people had never heard of it. And this was after several news stories by the local media. 
 

As a former member I would say that while some of it was not new, it verified a number of rumors that we heard. What was new to us was everything about Joe Lara since he had not come on the scene when we left. All of that should bring many to doubt Gwen’s judgment. 
 

Something that my wife and I thought could have been done was to refute the testimony from Gwen at the beginning. It was at best half-truths or outright lies. Our testimony is that she was not one of the leaders but rather THE leader through whom everything was decided. Numerous people left because of continuing to be overweight; while they may not have been told to leave, their life was made so miserable that had to get out. The shunning happened all the time - our family was told we could not attend services because we had weight to lose. ( We could watch online but there were no guidelines for returning until they called us after several months and said we could attend again.) We know of many similar examples. The shunning was strong after leaving, which went along with the instructions to not socialize with non-RF (especially those who left) and that included social media. 

I just finished watching the first two episodes. I think the intention of the producers is to let Gwen’s deposition statements condemn her with her own words. The fact that her words are the exact opposite of the truth will be obvious to the viewer as the story unfolds.

[Freedbygrace]

@Roscoe your memory of catching Gwen misquoting the Bible and then being punished for mentioning it brought back memories for me. What happened to you was a part of the worship of Gwen Almighty (as she was called in the documentary). She could do no wrong and her word was elevated above Paul or John or even Jesus. I believe she chose leaders who knew little of the Bible so they could defend her in situations such as yours. 

[mango_fandango]

When Harry Potter first started coming out, I was too young to read/watch. I vaguely remember the hype surrounding Order of the Phoenix which came out (book) in 2003, when I was around 8, and I also remember people talking about going to see Prisoner of Azkaban in the cinema the following year. The first film I saw in the cinema was Goblet of Fire, so I have a little soft spot for that one.  
 
I first became aware of The Hunger Games when I read some article about the first film. I remember thinking “wow, that sounds horrible”, probably about the whole killing thing. I’ve come across a number of dystopian-future YA books, and they all have basically the same story/format. Girl aged 15-17, describing some big upcoming ceremony that their society has deemed important and how excited the protagonist is to go through it. Then they discover that things aren’t as they seem, and they get involved in fighting society. Somewhere along the line they usually fall in love with someone who’s an ‘outsider’ in some way. 

[RFSurvivor_2]

15 hours ago, Destiny said:

Dammit, I TOLD YOU TO LIE TO ME! I mean,  you COULD learn some Latin from watching Harry Potter. You know learning Latin leads DIRECTLY to summoning demons from the depth of Hades, right? You clearly needed guidance on proper behaviour.

It’s 6:00am and I’m over here dying of laughter! Thank you for this, @Destiny.

 

[nelliebelle1197]

7 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Hmmm...it seems that the commentariat has taken almost a visceral dislike to Dan Gryder. I've been cringing reading some of the vitriol directed at him.

I think he came here in good faith. He intensely dislikes RF and Gwen (RIP). I intensely dislike RF and couldn't stand Gwen. FJ has been very disapproving of her and the RF cult, which is why he probably thought he would find kindred spirits here. So, I find the FJ hostility puzzling. FJ has some unique aspects compared to other online communities, and newcomers are usually corrected and given time to adjust without being treated too harshly. If you viewed any of his videos, you would see his tone is very dry and sarcastic. But he's not the enemy. Why assume the worst about the man? 

DG may have misunderstood that FJ does not engage in activism no matter how harmful some of the people and groups discussed here might be. But that doesn't make his objective to do as much as possible to help RF implode a bad thing, in my opinion. These threads are full of the hurt, harm, and destruction wrought by RF and Gwen. A few tasteless remarks doesn't nearly equate to the damage done by them. Nonetheless, I hope he moves on for his sake as he clearly isn't welcome, and I don't see him accomplishing much here.  

I intend to get an HBO trial as I must see the documentary, will probably set it up tomorrow because I can't wait! I hope the former RF members are not triggered too badly, and that the fallout doesn't affect their family members who are still in the cult. 

I am really surprised to see you defending him. He has pushed out a ton of unsubstantiated nonsense and one current member here who actually has connections to the doc and the church has noted that Dan is not really a good source. Dan’s own behavior and background show his lack of reliability as well. Dude is pushing a completely made up theory about suicide FFS! He attacked kids and dug in. He has no real connection to RF and he came here to promote himself. He is not a regular member feeling his way around. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Michael hasn’t posted on his Instagram in 4.5 year. But today there’s a new picture of his family and he states he has the best wife and kids. His post just makes me sad. 

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

But he's not the enemy.

Pretty sure people who say they have no compassion for the children in cults because they are not innocent, need to be given a taste of their own medicine and victim blame children for not having dismantled a cult are actually the enemy. 
 

My thought are that Dan lives in a bubble where fat shaming women and girls is seen as amusing. Notice the times when he fats shames it has been women he picks on. When confronted with why his behavior isn’t acceptable, he just dug his heels in and kept saying increasingly worse things. Much like Bob, Dan couldn’t actually address the concerns people had. They are cut from the same cloth. 

[formergothardite]

58 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Michael hasn’t posted on his Instagram in 4.5 year. But today there’s a new picture of his family and he states he has the best wife and kids. His post just makes me sad. 

Whoever is advising them is doing a bad job. Suddenly trying to act in public like a devoted family man when there have been years of silence from him just screams desperation. 

[quiversR4hunting]

For anyone not wanting go click on the RF website and to make sure we have the press release words how they were on the website today, here is a copy of those points. Spoiler because it is long. 

Spoiler

Press Release: Official Response to HBO Max Documentary

Remnant Fellowship categorically denies the absurd, defamatory statements and accusations made in this documentary - yet another Hollywood attack on Religion.

Over the last 20 years, countless celebrities and public figures have had to endure allegations of child abuse, eating disorders, sexual abuse and more. While many of these situations might be accurate, there are definitely situations where people are falsely accused. In today's society, everyone should be highly discerning regarding anything they see on any media. We insist that the allegations made against our church are completely false and defamatory.

Our Christian beliefs are Bible-based. Our church is a place based on love, care, mercy, and kindness shown to people from all walks of life. We have helped thousands to find a relationship with God.

The church has also encouraged members to find their own personal relationship with God and has proven to restore numerous broken marriages and other relationships.

Our teachings have helped thousands to overcome strongholds, vices, and addictions.

Remnant Fellowship vehemently denies any accusation of child abuse in any form.   Children here are happy and healthy, being raised with the most love, care, support, and protection imaginable. The church’s stance is that parents should determine how they set boundaries and guide their children based on their own family decisions, as long as it is founded on love and protection. There is no harshness in God nor Jesus Christ – there is only gentleness. Countless parents have shared that they are more loving and kind to their children after they started attending Remnant than they were before.  

Our membership includes a high number of professional “mandatory reporters” who would be required by law to report any signs of abuse or concern, including over 90 medical professionals (including doctors, nurses, and psychologists), 7 legal professionals, 4 law enforcement professionals, and over 20 educators. These mandatory reporters have never reported any concern regarding the health or safety of any children at the church. 

We do not body shame or bully anyone, as we know that God created all of us uniquely with different sizes, shapes and weights. We also do not approach anyone about weight, but we help those who approach us wanting help. Otis Rickman, a Pulmonary and Critical care physician who attends Remnant, sums this up well: “Everybody’s different. God made us all different. We have big, sturdy, muscular people; we have thin, wispy people. We have all kinds of people.”

Thousands have said that their lives have benefited from the mere-Christianity message of Remnant Fellowship and the Weigh Down Ministries, but we know that there is no one message that can ever please everyone.

Over 40% of our resources are given away to members at zero cost, including free scholarships for classes or summer camp activities. Regarding tithing or donating, in our 20+ year history, tithing has been spoken about very few times. We have never passed a collection plate in any service; in fact, we address this aspect so infrequently, new members often have to inquire HOW to donate or tithe. Remnant Fellowship has never required any member to purchase any resource, book, or class. Money tithed to Remnant, like any other church, is used to help the needy, hurting, and poor, and to keep the basic church ministry operations going.

As any other church, Remnant Fellowship operates under all U.S. guidelines and laws.

Our Church’s services and assemblies are webcast each week and viewed by people all around the world at no cost. Anyone seeking to learn more are always welcome to visit anytime online or in person. This is a place full of love and mercy with welcome, open arms to everyone around the world! 

I swore I posted this last night but can't find it this morning - I need more sleep. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by quiversR4hunting
see italics

[Destiny]

1 hour ago, RFSurvivor_2 said:

It’s 6:00am and I’m over here dying of laughter! Thank you for this, @Destiny.

 

I’m telling you. First Latin, then Belial.

Seriously, I never did understand the fundie you learn something about fake witchcraft and suddenly you have the demons thing about any story that contains magic. 

[nelliebelle1197]

26 minutes ago, Destiny said:

I’m telling you. First Latin, then Belial.

Seriously, I never did understand the fundie you learn something about fake witchcraft and suddenly you have the demons thing about any story that contains magic. 

Never got that either. The whole of the OT and NT is full of magical things starting with the garden of eden and ending with the entire book of Revelation…

[Destiny]

17 hours ago, Freedbygrace said:

We have just finished watching the documentary and glanced through some of the posts here. I agree with one post which said there wasn’t a lot new but I would clarify that it is so for people here on FJ or others who follow RF. I was amazed at time when in the church how many local people had never heard of it. And this was after several news stories by the local media. 

I was saying something along these lines to someone privately. For me, the only new thing was the second Smith child, which I'm absolutely sure that had I actually read any of the news stories on the topic I would have known about. I learned nothing, and was a bit underwhelmed because we had people saying the dirt was finally coming out and so on.

All that said, WE are 100% NOT the target audience here. The members of FJ tend to be more familiar with the abuses of cults, the ways that fundamentalism controls their followers and so on, and if you've been following this thread you've been hearing these stories all along. The target audience is the person who might get sucked in to this cult, and hopefully the knowledge of how things work there might help keep that person from ever darkening the door in Brentwood, or clicking play on the livestream.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I was surprised that there are so many Brentwood people who know very little of RF. Maybe I’m just the type of person who researches stuff going on in my area. I guess they didn’t attract a ton of attention because they all put on this happy successful front and peoples just take them at face value.