Remnant Fellowship 20: Popping Popcorn, Waiting for the Bewigged Tiger King....

[Destiny]

5 minutes ago, Jacked said:

 Best college assignment I ever had was reading ‘The Red Scarf Girl’ for Modern World Civ toward the end of the semester. There’s a reason that professor is now the chair of the history dept. YA and children’s lit are my fav.

I'd never heard of this book before but it's now checked out from my library and on my kindle waiting for me to get off work. Thank you for the unintended recommend.

[Jacked]

9 minutes ago, Roscoe said:

We kind of lived by Gwen's whims. I remember one year at Summer Day Camp she did this whole thing about how birthday parties were evil, specifically because one of her granddaughters wasn't invited to some other girl's birthday party. So there was a whole sermon to the kids about how birthday parties were evil and selfish and instead you should fill out a RF book with your parents about how grateful you were to be alive.

 

I don't think this "edict" lasted very long, but I remember not having birthday parties that summer.

If I could I would throw you a party to make up for the one you didn’t have that year. 
 

 

[quiversR4hunting]

@Destiny my first thought of Gwen not liking Hunger Games is it might give people ideas that they are supposed to eat and people fight over having enough food to eat and rebel against leadership that won't feed them.

(I haven't read the book nor watched the entire movie but enough to think I have the gist of what is going on.) 

[Freedbygrace]

We have just finished watching the documentary and glanced through some of the posts here. I agree with one post which said there wasn’t a lot new but I would clarify that it is so for people here on FJ or others who follow RF. I was amazed at time when in the church how many local people had never heard of it. And this was after several news stories by the local media. 
 

As a former member I would say that while some of it was not new, it verified a number of rumors that we heard. What was new to us was everything about Joe Lara since he had not come on the scene when we left. All of that should bring many to doubt Gwen’s judgment. 
 

Something that my wife and I thought could have been done was to refute the testimony from Gwen at the beginning. It was at best half-truths or outright lies. Our testimony is that she was not one of the leaders but rather THE leader through whom everything was decided. Numerous people left because of continuing to be overweight; while they may not have been told to leave, their life was made so miserable that had to get out. The shunning happened all the time - our family was told we could not attend services because we had weight to lose. ( We could watch online but there were no guidelines for returning until they called us after several months and said we could attend again.) We know of many similar examples. The shunning was strong after leaving, which went along with the instructions to not socialize with non-RF (especially those who left) and that included social media. 

[Destiny]

Just now, quiversR4hunting said:

@Destiny my first thought of Gwen not liking Hunger Games is it might give people ideas that they are supposed to eat and people fight over having enough food to eat and rebel against leadership that won't feed them.

(I haven't read the book nor watched the entire movie but enough to think I have the gist of what is going on.) 

I mean, that's a point, but one of the ongoing themes of the trilogy is how excess leads to the fall of society, and the "evil" characters are prone to overeating. I'm not saying you are wrong, because Gwen doesn't seem to be overly familiar with the concept of nuance, but if that's where she went with it, she missed the point.

[Jacked]

Just now, Destiny said:

I'd never heard of this book before but it's now checked out from my library and on my kindle waiting for me to get off work. Thank you for the unintended recommend.

Glad I could be helpful. 
 

And I really ought to re-read it. That was 15 years ago. I don’t remember much about it. Probably because my childhood friend was murdered at the same time. I remember sitting in the history library reading the book and listening to Dido’s ‘Isobel’ on my iPod and trying not to sob.  
 

[quiversR4hunting]

1 minute ago, Destiny said:

I mean, that's a point, but one of the ongoing themes of the trilogy is how excess leads to the fall of society, and the "evil" characters are prone to overeating. I'm not saying you are wrong, because Gwen doesn't seem to be overly familiar with the concept of nuance, but if that's where she went with it, she missed the point.

Thank you for that insight, I might not skip it the next time it is on cable. (I know I can't watch it when my youngest is around, prone to nightmares, can't watch HP with her yet either.)

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 minutes ago, Destiny said:

I mean, that's a point, but one of the ongoing themes of the trilogy is how excess leads to the fall of society, and the "evil" characters are prone to overeating. I'm not saying you are wrong, because Gwen doesn't seem to be overly familiar with the concept of nuance, but if that's where she went with it, she missed the point.

Gwen’s big hair and excess would have fit in perfectly at the capital. 

[Destiny]

Just now, quiversR4hunting said:

Thank you for that insight, I might not skip it the next time it is on cable. (I know I can't watch it when my youngest is around, prone to nightmares, can't watch HP with her yet either.)

The ongoing themes of the book involve what happens when media and reality TV cultures go terribly wrong. Yes, there's the fight for freedom and so on, but the subtexts that are an indictment of our culture are fascinating. I would read the books. Some of that nuance is not as much there in the movies, especially in Catching Fire.

Just now, JermajestyDuggar said:

Gwen’s big hair and excess would have fit in perfectly at the capital. 

I actually thought exactly that the first time I saw her. She's like that aging stylist from Mockingjay ...  Tigressa was it? Who didn't know when to quit so she made herself into a joke.

[Freedbygrace]

"Permission to watch" wow, that screams cult. I don't understand adults joining a place with free will and then giving in to people telling what they can and cannot do in mundane everyday things such as TV shows/internet/books, etc. I don't understand how they can give up their own curiosity to the world. To me it's mind boggling. 
 

@quiversR4hunting to reply to your quote above. (And sorry for referencing it this way.) From the outside it is mind boggling. But in the middle of it you are blinded. Nobody joined RF to have our free will decisions taken away. It’s like the story of the frog in the pot of water. It will jump out of it’s boiling but it will stay if you start cool and slowly heat it until it’s too late. That’s why it can be embarrassing and has you thinking, “Was I really a part of that”?  I liked the woman on the documentary who explained she shaved her head to have a fresh start. 

[RFSurvivor_2]

35 minutes ago, Roscoe said:

Ooh! What was the reason, if you don't mind me asking?

See below.

35 minutes ago, Destiny said:

Again, I'm going to regret my question I'm sure, but what was it about Harry Potter and the Hunger Games that she found so objectionable? If it wasn't the witchcraft, was it the refusal to submit to authority?

Speaking from my experience during my time @ RF/and with WD:

- In regards to Harry Potter

Gwen’s adversity towards the concept/belief/religion of witchcraft was definitely strong, hence why it was one of the, if not the main reason towards her disdain towards Harry Potter. Stereotypical fundie stuff right here. 

- In regards to Hunger Games

I recall her sharing to the RFYouth during one of the Saturday evening gatherings, her decision to “ban” (or “guide to reconsider” as she would call it) the viewing and reading of The Hunger Games. Her reason was that she didn’t like the idea of “kids killing each other” which is understandable but to be frank, however ironic…

There definitely was much more to this however I unfortunately do not have any additional experiences to share.

While I strongly believe that the *don’t allow them to get too excited for something outside of the church* tactic was strong for both of these situations, however there were, as I stated, much more than meets to eye.

Edited September 30, 2021 by RFSurvivor_2

[Destiny]

Just now, RFSurvivor_2 said:

Her reason was that she didn’t like the idea of “kids killing each other” which is understandable to be frank, however ironic.

I totally get that, but it very much sounds like, as I suspected, that she completely missed the nuance of the book and the things the author was trying to say about our culture. That's unfortunate, because I think there's a lot to be gained from using the books as a jumping off point to reconsider our actions, both individually and as a culture.

re: Harry Potter, like I said, that Latin will getcha! First Lumos, then suddenly you're conjuring Belial.

[RFSurvivor_2]

3 minutes ago, Destiny said:

I totally get that, but it very much sounds like, as I suspected, that she completely missed the nuance of the book and the things the author was trying to say about our culture. That's unfortunate, because I think there's a lot to be gained from using the books as a jumping off point to reconsider our actions, both individually and as a culture.

re: Harry Potter, like I said, that Latin will getcha! First Lumos, then suddenly you're conjuring Belial.

You’re spot on! Well said!

[Roscoe]

One thing I do have to say, especially after having conversations with other ex RF members over the past few years is how insanely pervasive gaslighting is around RF. There was big control of information and you'd often get conflicting explanations from different leaders.

Whenever Gwen or leadership would do or say something crazy, or you'd hear about how someone was hurt, there would be an immediate clampdown on information. The church had an active "anti-rumor" position and all complaints were immediately seen as "divisive" and the "voice of Satan." People were terrified of speaking about anything, even things they were directly involved with. It made it deeply isolating to live through.

As a kid, even having basic questions and confusion was something that could get me into huge trouble. One time I remember vividly noticing that Gwen had completely misquoted a piece of scripture and blatantly misinterpreted its context. I was a kid who was expected to have daily 2 hour devotionals reading the Bible, so I was very aware of scripture. I told a parent that Gwen had gotten something wrong. I didn't even say it snottily or as a know-it-all, I just said "that's not what the Bible says." I got screamed at, smacked, then dragged into speak with my small group leader to apologize for thinking "I had a better idea than Gwen." I remember the leader basically telling me that I heard Gwen wrong and that she never made that obvious mistake and I was told to apologize for being divisive. 

It bugged me so much. Every time I heard that message (which was frequent because I was often replayed), I noticed the error and was reminded how I had been brutally punished for even seeing it. My own memory was frequently called into question and I was quite literally told that certain things (like women being told to go back to physically abusive husbands or kids being hit by their parents) never happened and I was remembering it wrong. I could have photographic and video evidence and still be told I was hearing it wrong and it actually said something else.

It wasn't until I got out and began speaking to other former members that I realized how much of the insanity I had witnessed had been real. I'm still working through a lot of the number RF did on my mind.

[WorseThan1Thinks]

 

47 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I haven’t seen the documentary yet, so I don’t know if they present him as a voice of reason or a wacky guy with a YouTube channel who is off his rocker. 

 

30 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

He is not in the first three episodes that I saw.

To be perfectly clear, Dan Gryder is not in these 3 episodes whatsoever.  The vast, vast majority of what these 3 episodes contain was in post-production BEFORE the crash.  Yes, episodes 4 & 5 will be post-crash.

I have a very, very (very) strong feeling we will not be seeing Dan interviewed in the upcoming episodes.  Mark my words.  The producers took this production very seriously and they're not going to want it marred by someone as off-putting as Dan has been.

Dan's approach is actually a damn shame.  He does absolutely have the aviation knowledge to shine a ton of light on what likely happened with the flight.  Dan absolutely DOES have multiple very good contacts giving him information.  But his videos also include some jumping to wrong conclusions/speculation.  That's all I'll say on Dan... it's a shame this board had to spend most of this morning (of all mornings!!) posting about him instead of Gwen and RF and the documentary.  

Back to the important topic at hand, the documentary was a dream come true for me to watch personally.  

[Jacked]

Well, I’m about to start watching the documentary. This may not be the best idea as I’m already so tired and depressed I could cry.

But throwing caution to the wind & here goes.

[Roscoe]

I also hope that Dan Gryder is not included in the documentary. I do not think he is a serious person who is qualified to talk about cults, especially since he apparently has no real familial or personal tie to RF. From what I gather, he's just a plane guy who first got into the RF-gawking after the plane crash and thinks he's helping by making nasty comments about children and gleefully talking about human beings being smashed into chicken cutlets. I do not like his attitude and apparent crusade to "expose all the cult members" including the "not-so-innocent children."

I was a child who grew up in that cult. Hell, I knew the little girl he made that snide linebacker comment about. If he thinks its appropriate to make that kind of comment about a preteen girl who has the misfortune of growing up in an anorexia cult, then I seriously question his judgment. And if he thinks he is helping by gleefully "exposing" and "destroying" the rank and file members who got sucked into a dangerously charismatic and seductive cult (or had the misfortune of growing up with it as the only thing they ever knew), he is not.

There are a lot of serious people who are working tirelessly to help people get out of the cult and expose the truth about RF. Dan Gryder is not one of them. I'd say he's actively feeding into the narrative frequently exposed in RF circles that the "haters" are cruel and thoughtless bullies who don't actually know anything."

[Destiny]

24 minutes ago, WorseThan1Thinks said:

He does absolutely have the aviation knowledge to shine a ton of light on what likely happened with the flight. 

To be honest, after doing some research, I'm not even sure that that is true. If you google him, he seems to be a joke in the aviation community with a history of making serious and spurious accusations, along with unsavory behaviour. I also don't see any qualifications related to being an accident investigator anywhere, even on his own site. Being a pilot doesn't make him an aircraft accident investigator any more than me having had a driver's license for more years than I care mention makes me an expert in highway accidents. I will say this though: he does have a type rating in the aircraft in question, so I have no doubt that he understands how to fly the plane.

Tl;dr: If the producers of this documentary have as much integrity as all y'all say they do: they should have a look at his reputation and behaviour and then find someone, ANYONE else to have that conversation for the documentary, or better yet, wait and see what the NTSB has to say and don't speculate.

[throwaway9988]

 

53 minutes ago, WorseThan1Thinks said:

To be perfectly clear, Dan Gryder is not in these 3 episodes whatsoever.  The vast, vast majority of what these 3 episodes contain was in post-production BEFORE the crash.  Yes, episodes 4 & 5 will be post-crash.

I have a very, very (very) strong feeling we will not be seeing Dan interviewed in the upcoming episodes.  Mark my words.  The producers took this production very seriously and they're not going to want it marred by someone as off-putting as Dan has been.

Dan's approach is actually a damn shame.  He does absolutely have the aviation knowledge to shine a ton of light on what likely happened with the flight.  Dan absolutely DOES have multiple very good contacts giving him information.  But his videos also include some jumping to wrong conclusions/speculation.  That's all I'll say on Dan... it's a shame this board had to spend most of this morning (of all mornings!!) posting about him instead of Gwen and RF and the documentary.  

Back to the important topic at hand, the documentary was a dream come true for me to watch personally.  

I agree, and I got exactly the same sense.  Although a few of the revelations in the documentary were news to me (because I left RF so long ago), everything else was stuff I already knew, and, like I said before, except for 1 or 2 nitpicky comments like the trinity, the documentary content I saw in episodes 1-3 was accurate according to what I know firsthand from being a member for 9-10 years.  I don't think the documentary makers would have achieved that level of accuracy if they were indiscriminately using footage of every single interview they performed without doing their due diligence to verify the information in those interviews first.  So someone who seems prone to repeating internet rumors as if they are verified facts, and someone who seems too cavalier with their speculations, (e.g. speculating that Joe Lara might have purposely crashed the plane in order to commit suicide--I don't wanna hear that crap unless you have Joe's fucking diary or signed affidavits from his secret confidants or something real to back that up! That sort of speculation is just muddying the waters and is not helpful!) might not be actually be featured in the documentary overly much, and if they are, the editor probably would only include the more verifiable things that other aviation experts seem to agree with and would hopefully cut the rest of the interview out.  

19 minutes ago, Destiny said:

To be honest, after doing some research, I'm not even sure that that is true. If you google him, he seems to be a joke in the aviation community with a history of making serious and spurious accusations, along with unsavory behaviour. I also don't see any qualifications related to being an accident investigator anywhere, even on his own site. Being a pilot doesn't make him an aircraft accident investigator any more than me having had a driver's license for more years than I care mention makes me an expert in highway accidents. I will say this though: he does have a type rating in the aircraft in question, so I have no doubt that he understands how to fly the plane.

Tl;dr: If the producers of this documentary have as much integrity as all y'all say they do: they should have a look at his reputation and behaviour and then find someone, ANYONE else to have that conversation for the documentary, or better yet, wait and see what the NTSB has to say and don't speculate.

Took the words out of my mouth right as I was typing them!

And yes, back to talking about the documentary itself.  It was very therapeutic for me to watch.  It was great to see a bunch of other ex-members (some of whom I had never heard of before) having all the same experiences and coming to the same conclusions I did.  When you come from a cult that is all about gaslighting like @Roscoe pointed out, the simple experience of having someone else affirm your experiences and agree that no, you aren't the crazy one...that's priceless.

1 hour ago, Roscoe said:

I don't know if y'all have seen this, but here's the official RF response to the documentary. Wild stuff.

 

https://www.remnantfellowship.org/official-response-from-gwen-shamblin-church-to-hbo-documentary/

Thanks for making us aware of this.  Looks like the typical RF obfuscation where they just repeat over and over: "Look at all the good fruit! This message must be true and good!" while hiding/ignoring the mountain of bad fruit and not actually responding to direct accusations in any meaningful or substantive way.

In the immortal words of Helen Byrd from the documentary: "Fuck outta here with that!"

Edited September 30, 2021 by throwaway9988

[freefromthin]

Yeah, they went to great lengths to try and refute the documentary. Gwen's old website has turned into a memorial of her life and they even have a link to their response to the documentary on there. None of this surprises me, though. 

Seems like the billboards might spark some conversation. Oh well, I guess they can just direct them to the video testimonies. 

[Nonbeliever]

2 hours ago, Roscoe said:

I don't know if y'all have seen this, but here's the official RF response to the documentary. Wild stuff.

 

https://www.remnantfellowship.org/official-response-from-gwen-shamblin-church-to-hbo-documentary/

This is right out if the Scientology play book. “Thousands have said…” so how could they all be wrong? 😑 

[throwaway9988]

5 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Please someone help me out here. The Angers are no longer in leadership positions. Why is that? It was probably mentioned a million threads back but I just can’t think of it. Tedd Anger has always made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. When he talks, it scares me. He scares me. Just as much as Gwen. What’s currently going on with the Angers?

You, me, and @Red Hair, Black Dress have been asking this every few months for years now,  haha.  I know, I know, I'm absolutely dying of curiosity about this too, for about four or five different speculative reasons.  But at this point I think we have to accept that no one currently on this forum has any firsthand knowledge about what went down, or if they do, they apparently aren't in a position to share it at this time.  I'm hoping the documentary will lead to a lot of people leaving Remnant, and I'm hoping one of those people will know something new about this leadership drama.  To me, it would just be so fascinating to get new details about how the leadership change went down.

 

As far as what Tedd and Candace are doing now, apparently they have both quietly retired from leadership but stayed within RF, and they are both realtors. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by throwaway9988

[RFSurvivor_2]

20 minutes ago, throwaway9988 said:

You, me, and @Red Hair, Black Dress have been asking this every few months for years now,  haha.  I know, I know, I'm absolutely dying of curiosity about this too, for about four or five different speculative reasons.  But at this point I think we have to accept that no one currently on this forum has any firsthand knowledge about what went down, or if they do, they apparently aren't in a position to share it at this time.  I'm hoping the documentary will lead to a lot of people leaving Remnant, and I'm hoping one of those people will know something new about this leadership drama.  To me, it would just be so fascinating to get new details about how the leadership change went down.

 

As far as what Tedd and Candace are doing now, apparently they have both quietly retired from leadership but stayed within RF, and they are both realtors. Although, interestingly, they work for a normal company and not for Brandon Hannah, even though they both would have seemed to be shoo-ins for direct promotions into the upper echelons of Brandon's company. Many other leaders have been directly promoted into the upper echelons of both Weigh Down and Exodus Industries at various points in time, so to me it is interesting that the same thing conspicuously didn't occur for Tedd and Candace.

Oh. So the WFG stuff involving the Days and Angers hasn’t been discussed here.

Well shit.

Edited September 30, 2021 by RFSurvivor_2

[throwaway9988]

20 minutes ago, RFSurvivor_2 said:

Oh. So the WFG stuff involving the Days and Angers hasn’t been discussed here.

Well shit.

Well we've discussed the Days being part of WFG and how it is a MLM.  We discussed the Angers having a history of going on their own business ventures outside of RF.  There was a bit of talk about Gwen not liking their businesses or something like that (apparently only Gwen is allowed to grift the RF members, nobody else is!), but nothing too concrete and nothing fully explained. 

If Gwen didn't agree with something (a student who wants to study psychology, someone who was already a chiropractor before joining Remnant, etc.) it seems like she almost invariably would tell those people that they need to choose between staying in Remnant and leaving to do their own thing, but if they stayed in Remnant they had to do things God's way (Gwen's way).  So I didn't quite know what to make of that speculation, since to me it seemed like the result of a clash between Gwen and the Angers/Days businesses would have been either the Angers/Days getting out of those businesses or getting out of Remnant.  This sort of halfway compromise where the Angers and Days keep their businesses but also stay in Remnant playing the roles of happy little members just didn't seem to fit the prior pattern.  Although...on second thought, maybe it does fit the pattern, since I seem to remember the chiropractor being able to both stay in Remnant and practice as a chiropractor after a year or two of going back and forth....But anyways, what I'm saying is all just speculation, so if you've heard anything to the contrary, please fill us in! 

Edited September 30, 2021 by throwaway9988

[RFSurvivor_2]

14 minutes ago, throwaway9988 said:

Well we've discussed the Days being part of WFG and how it is a MLM.  We discussed the Angers having a history of going on their own business ventures outside of RF.  There was a bit of talk about Gwen not liking their businesses or something like that (apparently only Gwen is allowed to grift the RF members, nobody else is!), but nothing too concrete and nothing fully explained. 

If Gwen didn't agree with something (a student who wants to study psychology, someone who was already a chiropractor before joining Remnant, etc.) it seems like she almost invariably would tell those people that they need to choose between staying in Remnant and leaving to do their own thing, but if they stayed in Remnant they had to do things God's way (Gwen's way).  So I didn't quite know what to make of that speculation, since to me it seemed like the result of a clash between Gwen and the Angers/Days businesses would have been either the Angers/Days getting out of those businesses or getting out of Remnant.  This sort of halfway compromise where the Angers and Days keep their businesses but also stay in Remnant playing the roles of happy little members just didn't seem to fit the prior pattern.  Although...on second thought, maybe it does fit the pattern, since I seem to remember the chiropractor being able to both stay in Remnant and practice as a chiropractor after a year or two of going back and forth....But anyways, what I'm saying is all just speculation, so if you've heard anything to the contrary, please fill us in! 

Thank you, I was able to look back (wayyyy back) into the older threads and indeed, WFG and Ted/Days connection is discussed there. 

From what I know, of course take it with a grain of salt as I have, Ted and Rob were doing shady, illegal shit involving WFG, which as a result got them both kicked out of leadership. Once again, take it with a grain of salt. I am still, till this day attempting to confirm the legitimacy of this rumor through some trustworthy contacts. This isn’t an accusation but more of a “I heard this” type deal.