Remnant Fellowship 20: Popping Popcorn, Waiting for the Bewigged Tiger King....

[Destiny]

Looks like Remnant cancelled this weekend's service.  It was just cancelled earlier today (was supposed to be at 5pm).   
lol
What Michael and Elizabeth are doing are the EXACT opposite of leading. They are practically no shows for 4 months and now this. That's not leading... that hiding and retreating.   At their most pivotal 'hour' (these past 4 months and especially now), they are practically nowhere to be seen.  

Cancelling a church service for anything short of the direst of reasons is so strange to me. I can think of zero times that ever happened when i was a practicing Christian.

[nelliebelle1197]

6 minutes ago, WorseThan1Thinks said:

Looks like Remnant cancelled this weekend's service.  It was just cancelled earlier today (was supposed to be at 5pm).   

lol

What Michael and Elizabeth are doing are the EXACT opposite of leading. They are practically no shows for 4 months and now this. That's not leading... that hiding and retreating.   At their most pivotal 'hour' (these past 4 months and especially now), they are practically nowhere to be seen.  

I don't know.... Elizabeth lost her mom and her husband. Michael lost his mom and apparently has depression. I can understand not being able to face the hard things right now, especially this. On a human level, I doubt these siblings were given appropriate tools by Gwen to lead and or even survive.

[Destiny]

Shouldn’t there be a whole cadre of people who can run services if they can’t or don’t want to? (for completely legitimate emotional reasons. NO judgement there.) That’s really what confuses me. Years ago, the pastor of my church had a death in the family. The details are lost in my brain now, but they had people who could step in and preach their services for them. I don’t understand why that structure doesn’t exist so they can continue on with or without the shamblin family.

[RFFriend]

6 minutes ago, Destiny said:

Shouldn’t there be a whole cadre of people who can run services if they can’t or don’t want to? (for completely legitimate emotional reasons. NO judgement there.) That’s really what confuses me. Years ago, the pastor of my church had a death in the family. The details are lost in my brain now, but they had people who could step in and preach their services for them. I don’t understand why that structure doesn’t exist so they can continue on with or without the shamblin family.

In  most normal churches, there is backup in case of illness, death, etc.  But, RF is far from that.  Plus, I think the people that might have been the backups were on the plane.

Didn't someone say the Days were supposed to be on the plane and gave up their seats for the Martins after David wasn't going to officiate the wedding?  I think they took a commercial flight down to the event in Florida instead, but took another flight back when they heard what happened.  If that's true, I am sure they are so glad they weren't on the plane.

[formergothardite]

32 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

When I stated that DG was not the enemy, I was limiting the scope of this statement to this topic. Victim blaming children in cults for not dismantling them makes no sense. Was he ever asked why he said such an absurd thing? If he believes in fat shaming, he should love RF and Gwen! In any case, yes, DG appeared to not comprehend why FJ had issues with him, but I don't think he's cut from the same cloth as RF and Gwen. Where's his cult? He's guilty of saying tasteless and insensitive things, but genuinely seems to hate RF, however I don't know the man and don't want to know him so I can't definitively say one way or the other. He's a bit player in all of this.

 

He was questioned and he either ignored people or replied by saying something even worse. Having did a bit of a dive into Dan when he first started discussing Gwen, it became quickly apparent that much like Gwen, he likes attention, adoration and doesn't tolerate anyone saying he is wrong. It has been pointed out to Dan here by former members that some of the things he claims are flat out wrong, but he won't back down or correct anything. He doesn't have a cult but he has that same attitude of giving no fucks about who he hurts or spreading false information and wanting no one to ever say he is wrong just like Gwen, Bill, Doug the Tool and all the other fundie leaders. That is what I meant when I said he was cut from the same cloth. 

 

[formergothardite]

Right now an enterprising and motivated person could probably take over RF. I’m surprised no one has “volunteered” to lead some services while they work on permanent leadership. That happened at a church my parents attended when the pastor died suddenly leaving a leadership void. A deacon volunteered to lead the services and then promptly took over the church. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Right now an enterprising and motivated person could probably take over RF. I’m surprised no one has “volunteered” to lead some services while they work on permanent leadership. That happened at a church my parents attended when the pastor died suddenly leaving a leadership void. A deacon volunteered to lead the services and then promptly took over the church. 

I figured there would be some fighting amongst some of the higher ups wanting the power. But the expectation on Elizabeth might be holding that back. 

[Alisamer]

1 hour ago, Destiny said:

Cancelling a church service for anything short of the direst of reasons is so strange to me. I can think of zero times that ever happened when i was a practicing Christian.

Same. I mean my church BURNED DOWN while the pastor was out of the country on vacation and they still didn’t cancel a service. In fact several other churches in town, of other denominations, immediately (like while the fire was burning still) offered use of their facilities. 
 

my church will cancel for severe ice storms, but that’s about it. 

[RFfamANON]

1 hour ago, Destiny said:

Cancelling a church service for anything short of the direst of reasons is so strange to me. I can think of zero times that ever happened when i was a practicing Christian.

Totally agree. And IIRC it is the ONE thing you have to do in order to be considered a church for IRS purposes. 

[RFsurvivor]

Looks like Remnant is trying to control the narrative. They have shared their statement on social media but have limited who can comment and I’m sure someone is watching like a hawk. Not a great look.

[WorseThan1Thinks]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I don't know.... Elizabeth lost her mom and her husband. Michael lost his mom and apparently has depression. I can understand not being able to face the hard things right now, especially this. On a human level, I doubt these siblings were given appropriate tools by Gwen to lead and or even survive.

That's part of my point.  Michael and Elizabeth have very limited experience/tools in leadership.  Yet, they are supposed to be the new leaders.  It's a train wreck in the making.  Especially with Michael.

1 hour ago, Destiny said:

Shouldn’t there be a whole cadre of people who can run services if they can’t or don’t want to? (for completely legitimate emotional reasons. NO judgement there.) That’s really what confuses me. Years ago, the pastor of my church had a death in the family. The details are lost in my brain now, but they had people who could step in and preach their services for them. I don’t understand why that structure doesn’t exist so they can continue on with or without the shamblin family.

This is such a vital aspect of RF.  Gwen only allowed herself to preach.  If she wasn't available (on one of her many vacations or just felt like sitting in the front row time after time), there simply wouldn't be a live sermon.  It was either videos of Gwen from the past or testimonies.  It sure feels like Gwen thought she was the only one qualified.  And what does that imply?

1 hour ago, RFFriend said:

In  most normal churches, there is backup in case of illness, death, etc.  But, RF is far from that. 

Exactly!!  

1 hour ago, RFFriend said:

Plus, I think the people that might have been the backups were on the plane.

I don't think so.  I never saw those other 6 (or again, anyone other than Gwen) give a 'sermon' at RF.  Sure, David Martin would praise Gwen up and down after she spoke.  Dave would lead the worship, Brandon would give the welcome or the opening or closing prayer sometimes.  But nobody would seemingly be allowed on Gwen's throne to actually preach.  That was for her.  

[nelliebelle1197]

39 minutes ago, WorseThan1Thinks said:

That's part of my point.  Michael and Elizabeth have very limited experience/tools in leadership.  Yet, they are supposed to be the new leaders.  It's a train wreck in the making.  Especially with Michael.

This is such a vital aspect of RF.  Gwen only allowed herself to preach.  If she wasn't available (on one of her many vacations or just felt like sitting in the front row time after time), there simply wouldn't be a live sermon.  It was either videos of Gwen from the past or testimonies.  It sure feels like Gwen thought she was the only one qualified.  And what does that imply?

Exactly!!  

I don't think so.  I never saw those other 6 (or again, anyone other than Gwen) give a 'sermon' at RF.  Sure, David Martin would praise Gwen up and down after she spoke.  Dave would lead the worship, Brandon would give the welcome or the opening or closing prayer sometimes.  But nobody would seemingly be allowed on Gwen's throne to actually preach.  That was for her.  

What about Ted Anger?

[TDHuggies]

10 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

What about Ted Anger?

I had always assumed it was going to be Elizabeth, Ted and Candace that would take over. Ted is charismatic and can command a room. But since he stepped down or was demoted it seems those who are making decisions don’t want him back. 

[Mela99]

I had no idea this lady existed, I honestly thought she was a meme (that hair).

Steve and I just now started the first episode the of the HBO series and I ….

Damn, yo.

Damn.

That poor Delaney.

[freefromthin]

3 hours ago, ManyGoats said:

Right, but my question is -- did it air live?

Sorry for not being clear. It did air live, because I know someone who watched it online.

[nelliebelle1197]

42 minutes ago, TDHuggies said:

I had always assumed it was going to be Elizabeth, Ted and Candace that would take over. Ted is charismatic and can command a room. But since he stepped down or was demoted it seems those who are making decisions don’t want him back. 

But aren’t most of those people gone now?

[danvillebelle]

I just watched all three episodes.  DAMN.  I feel kinda bad for Michael Shamblin; I think he suffers with clinical depression and is a lot like his father, never really wanting in on Gwen's crazy.  Much respect for Natasha and how hard she fought for her daughter.

My absolute favorite moment in the whole thing was when former member Helen Byrd said "How the hell you gonna get a divorce and then before the ink is dry, you're engaged?  Get the fuck outta here with that.  MISS ME WITH THAT."  I laughed so hard. 

[Blue]

On 10/1/2021 at 10:58 AM, Truth sets you free said:

Sweet Delaney's wedding...you can see her parents in the background.

 

 

Everytime I see these videos I'm thankful that our family has mostly "aged out" of all these weddings. There were a few years where we had family in every.single.wedding album and video and it was so depressing.

[Pathologic Antagonist]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

But aren’t most of those people gone now?

No, but their magnetic personas were never honed by Gwen for true leadership of their cult for any sustained time.

Think of it this way. It's one thing to recite a litany of familiar Gwenspeak for a week or so on a webcast and look sensationally commanding. Any of the 120 can do that, with varying levels of competency and conviction (given what Remnant views of Shepherd X or Shepherdess Y).

That ship has sailed. The endless regurgitation of the party line is clearly what this disheartened people are not waiting on. ANY group of any persuasion will demand leadership in one way or another, voting with their feet if necessary and last weekend's disastrous Feast attendance is a most ominous sign.

It's quite another to be anointed as being the One to bear a visionary and commanding direction and sustain it energetically, with passion and clarity in terms that rally a disheartened, drifting congregation of people whose catechism is based upon coercion. Such a leader doesn't just inspire in the footlights but deftly handles day to day administration that inspires the hoi polloi to rededicate themselves to a lifestyle immersed in group micromanagement imposed by a firm authority line of compliant underlings .. who fall in line with that vision.

The fire and energy to reacquire and sustain that level of authoritarian control is something that neither of the heirs apparent, Michael and Elizabeth, are even vaguely close to emulating, let alone adopting as a critical aspect of their public persona. The reasons are all too obvious and have been discussed here. If Gwen's position can be likened to the assassinated Joseph Smith of Mormonism, her children are not showing the assumption of any kind of Brigham Young mantle of authority.  

The critical need is for the firm grip by a trusted figure upon reins of a fresh vision of thought reform imposing new order and direction. This is a group dynamic that Gwen mastered well but which she let slip in the months before her death. Her plunge into eros undid her focus and contributed to the start of an erosion in Remnant that is turning slowly into a full scale collapse and crisis of leadership. Gwen may have technically had a line of succession beginning with Elizabeth, but to what degree of genuine leadership along the lines I just described she was permitted to exercise was actually quite limited. To take the helm of Remnant now is a job that I don't see any candidates truly arising to assume. 

As I said previously, I am certain there are junior puppetmasters rising up in the internecine intrigues of the leadership. Someone is keeping the bills paid, or ignored, the lights on, the business phones answered, etc.  I personally suspect that if history of cultism is any measure, that there may be a very quiet and earnest effort by certain shepherds or figures in the congregation to explore creating new splinter groups who will break away from RF. It's something that I suspect is going to start happening.

Remember this quote from Dune Messiah: one of the antagonists speaking about the ruling emperor's power structure .. "He has bishoprics, islands of authority. At the center of each island is a man. Men learn how to gain and hold personal power. Men are jealous."

Their pretty picture of unity is a sham. Within Remnant, the authority line has created a lot of opportunity to take advantage in a situation where ambition is. 
   
Now it may be that Elizabeth and Michael may yet pull out of what is certainly a crushing set of circumstances of loss and challenge to assay to leadership. Each day that goes by makes the question marks get bigger and the bite of doubts even in the most devoted RF members certainly are finding teeth getting sharper and longer by the day.

  

Edited October 3, 2021 by Pathologic Antagonist

[Queen Of Hearts]

7 hours ago, WorseThan1Thinks said:

Looks like Remnant cancelled this weekend's service.  It was just cancelled earlier today (was supposed to be at 5pm).   

lol

 

Sooooo when their "prophetess" and the other church leaders die in a plane crash it is business as usual and the RF party of the day (in that case, a wedding) goes on as planned, but when a cable TV documentary comes about RF they go into hiding and cancel church services.   Sort of tells you all you need to know about the cult, doesn't it?

[RFSurvivor_2]

18 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Sort of tells you all you need to know about the cult, doesn't it?

Good point!

[hoipolloi]

39 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Sort of tells you all you need to know about the cult, doesn't it?

Yep. The fact that NO ONE, not even Gwen, planned or prepared for a future without Gwen is stunning.

No wonder Michael & Elizabeth are floundering. I really get a sense of "circling the drain"here.

[throwaway9988]

Underrated line from the documentary: 

“Well, she might smear her poop on the wall at night, or you may have to sleep with one eye open, but she’s not too bad.”

Edited October 3, 2021 by throwaway9988
And it would have been even funnier if that line had been about Gwen!

[AmazonGrace]

11 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Right now an enterprising and motivated person could probably take over RF. I’m surprised no one has “volunteered” to lead some services while they work on permanent leadership. That happened at a church my parents attended when the pastor died suddenly leaving a leadership void. A deacon volunteered to lead the services and then promptly took over the church. 

What with the documentary, maybe no one particularly wants to be known as the new face of crazy?

If it was just a matter of collecting the money on the way out, sure, but it's got to be a hassle with the publicity right now.

[formergothardite]

I was thinking last night how Bill Gothard had IBLP in the situation as RF. He was the one and only prophet, they basically showed videos he made back in the 80’s with him occasionally coming out with new material that was just old material rewritten. He had no one really trained to take over. He didn’t die, but he is gone. But when the scandals and horrific teachings started getting a lot of attention, the Bates family was there to get everyone to stab him in the back and then revamp the cult. Granted they didn’t have to deal with an HBO documentary, but former members were going on major news channels discussing the abusive teachings. 
 

The Bates have managed to take over a cult without it bringing negative attention to their reality tv show or social media accounts. They weathered the storm. But there seems to be no Bates in RF. I suspect Joe was the closest to being the person who could have taken over and revamped it during a crisis. If no one steps up, I do think it has a chance of collapsing or splintering into several groups. 
 

If the leaders have any common sense they will seek out the Bates on how to do damage control. Gil and Kelly are horrible people, but good at sugar coating evil.