[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 31: Charged on 2 LaCounts

[Mrs. Kravitz]

5 minutes ago, Cults-r-us said:

Why did he not after the raid immediately enroll himself in anti pervert therapy in preparation for his anticipated arrest?

That would have made him look super guilty. I think he's still going to try the "I was framed!" defense, as ridiculous as it might be. 

[Emkay]

The first suggestion I saw that he was being ‘framed’/the evidence was ‘planted’ was that it was because Sarah Huckabee Sanders made a statement supporting him after Joshgate #1, and it was an attempt to ruin her campaign for governor. I can’t remember where I saw it, though, and a quick Google didn’t come up with anything. So who knows? 

[AussieKrissy]

30 minutes ago, Cults-r-us said:

Why did he not after the raid immediately enroll himself in anti pervert therapy in preparation for his anticipated arrest?

A) Because he was hoping he could pray it all away. b) to arrogant to think he would be charged. C) doesn’t think he has done anything wrong and doesn’t believe he needs treatment. D) enrolling would imply guilt. E) he is an arrogant fu k and just wanted to continue on being a stain on society and did not want to go back to Jesus Gaol.  

[marypat57]

 

@HoneyBunny  

I am so sorry to hear of your experiences at the Catholic Church you attended.  I attend a rather large multicultural parish where we celebrate Mass in English, Spanish, Italian and Kreyol each week.  I don’t think I’ve ever heard one of our priests give a political sermon, except to remind you to exercise your duty to vote.  I’m grateful to be able worship in a warm, welcoming place.
Not every Catholic parish is like the ones you describe.  Not every priest is like those priests.

Give the Jesuits a chance.  You ma find them worth the trip.

[Jackie3]

10 hours ago, AreYouThereGothard? said:

The Willises acknowledged the crimes he committed, actually thanked law enforcement and District Attorney for how they handled the case, and recognized the victims and what they’ve gone through. Their show was cancelled and they’re out of the limelight. Granted, this was after his arrest and conviction, but it disgusts me how the Duggar parents’ focus is on “pray for Josh!” when other conservative religious families can acknowledge the wrong-doings of the offender and CSA in their own families. 

Reasonable? The mother, Brenda Willis, knew her daughters were being r*ped. They told her, years before, when they were children. She did nothing. The fact that her lawyer can write a good press statement means nothing. That's 10x worse than anything Anna Duggar has done (assuming Josh left their kids alone, of course).

5 hours ago, Mrs. Kravitz said:

That would have made him look super guilty. I think he's still going to try the "I was framed!" defense, as ridiculous as it might be. 

No, he's going to plead. It's just a matter of time. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Jackie3

[HerNameIsBuffy]

12 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

A) Because he was hoping he could pray it all away. b) to arrogant to think he would be charged. C) doesn’t think he has done anything wrong and doesn’t believe he needs treatment. D) enrolling would imply guilt. E) he is an arrogant fu k and just wanted to continue on being a stain on society and did not want to go back to Jesus Gaol.  

This, although not sure about your first point as I honestly don't think anyone with even a cursory belief in God could do what he did.  Not without being suicidal over the guilt.

I don't want that to be misinterpreted as I think people who believe are somehow better, they are not.  But ime there is guilt that goes along with true belief which we're not seeing here.  

I'm agonistic (kinda) at this point and I feel more guilt over my bad language than he's shown for any of this.

I know we only see the public perception, but the "jokes" he's made about incest on 19 and Counting after having molested his sisters belies any guilt whatsoever.  IMO he's devoid of even basic conscience.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

As we have been discussing nature vs nurture I looked for a study I had read about signs on psychopathy in brain scans and although this isn't the one I was looking for it's interesting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933872/

The study I was looking for was done by a doctor who said the results of his study showed he himself was predisposed to psychopathy, but he was non-violent and not involved in criminal acts so his theory is that some people with the predisposition will become psychopaths (current terminology Antisocial Personality Disorder) and others can develop functional emotions even with the pre-disposition if raised in a healthy environment where compassion is modeled, taught, and expected.

He said he could see predisposition by brain scans, as referenced in the article I linked above.  Their brains don't respond to horrific images the way typical people do.

Still looking for the link, but if anyone knows what I'm talking about and can link me I'd appreciate it.

Found it:  https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-neuroscientist-who-discovered-he-was-a-psychopath-180947814/

(if the article I linked above is valid I am definitely not a psychopath, I have a hyper startle reflex to the point it's an actual problem for me at work.)

Edited May 15, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[Cults-r-us]

15 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

This, although not sure about your first point as I honestly don't think anyone with even a cursory belief in God could do what he did.  Not without being suicidal over the guilt.

I don't want that to be misinterpreted as I think people who believe are somehow better, they are not.  But ime there is guilt that goes along with true belief which we're not seeing here.  

I'm agonistic (kinda) at this point and I feel more guilt over my bad language than he's shown for any of this.

I know we only see the public perception, but the "jokes" he's made about incest on 19 and Counting after having molested his sisters belies any guilt whatsoever.  IMO he's devoid of even basic conscience.

I bet he doesn't know how he feels, since his whole life he seems to act and (sneakily) react like an amoeba. He does not seem reflective, but he does seem consciousless and unremorseful. Narcissm or antisocial personality disorder?

I am sure it is stressful having Anna lead her #Bebest life as a fundie fertility goddess, what with his failure to have a career, no birth control and living under the thumb of his parents. On the other hand, he may like Anna and the Mkids, because they like him(!) and keep his folks happy.

As I said before, he probably is very compartmentalized in his life, the family man Josh who  and the sneaky, rebellious, acting-out-his -anger gross, pervert Josh.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, Cults-r-us said:

I bet he doesn't know how he feels, since his whole life he seems to act and (sneakily) react like an amoeba. He does not seem reflective, but he does seem consciousless and unremorseful. Narcissm or antisocial personality disorder?

I am sure it is stressful having Anna lead her #Bebest life as a fundie fertility goddess, what with his failure to have a career, no birth control and living under the thumb of his parents. On the other hand, he may like Anna and the Mkids, because they like him(!) and keep his folks happy.

As I said before, he probably is very compartmentalized in his life, the family man Josh who  and the sneaky, rebellious, acting-out-his -anger gross, pervert Josh.

From the second article I linked above:

Quote

“I got to the bottom of the stack, and saw this scan that was obviously pathological,” he says, noting that it showed low activity in certain areas of the frontal and temporal lobes linked to empathy, morality and self-control.

This is why we have such a hard time understanding people like him who are capable of things that horrify us.  Because their thought process is so different we can't understand it anymore than we can understand how an amoeba feels about their day....that was a really good analogy you made.

I disagree that he could like Anna and the kids.  If he had even a soupcon of feelings for his kids he wouldn't be able to have done what he did and it's been clear he gives no fucks about Anna from the start.  

(I've been trying not to post and was doing so well until this morning, clearly I have low activity in the "control your damn typing and keep your opinions to yourself" sector of my brain.)

Edited May 15, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[Nike]

14 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

And looks like Jill is the living proof. 
Parents  that shuns Jill and protect Josh. Well I think Satan is fully in their hearts and they don’t even know it. Their judgement day could be pretty interesting. 

I wonder whether Josh has something on JB. Ultimately JB only cares about JB and if he thought that dropping Josh would save his image he would. He would say the right things "will always love him but he needs to pay etc" . However if JB has secrets of his own and Josh knows, he may just be protecting his own backside 

[Cults-r-us]

17 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

From the second article I linked above:

This is why we have such a hard time understanding people like him who are capable of things that horrify us.  Because their thought process is so different we can't understand it anymore than we can understand how an amoeba feels about their day....that was a really good analogy you made.

I disagree that he could like Anna and the kids.  If he had even a soupcon of feelings for his kids he wouldn't be able to have done what he did and it's been clear he gives no fucks about Anna from the start.  

(I've been trying not to post and was doing so well until this morning, clearly I have low activity in the "control your damn typing and keep your opinions to yourself" sector of my brain.)

What I mean is he can both like them and not like them at the same time. He likes Anna because of her loyalty, their shared history, her joyful availability and she keeps his parents happy. He likes the Mkids because they are likable. He resents them because this isn't the life he wanted, the embarrassment of not being to provide due to his career failure. The Dr. Jekyl and Joshie Hyde sides of his personality don't communicate. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, Cults-r-us said:

What I mean is he can both like them and not like them at the same time. He likes Anna because of her loyalty, their shared history, her joyful availability and she keeps his parents happy. He likes the Mkids because they are likable. He resents them because this isn't the life he wanted, the embarrassment of not being to provide due to his career failure. The Dr. Jekyl and Joshie Hyde sides of his personality don't communicate. 

I'm not a psychiatrist and don't know him so you could be right.  I think it's more likely he knows how to hide his inhumanity much of the time than that any genuine affection or loyalty exists, but only he knows.

6 minutes ago, Nike said:

I wonder whether Josh has something on JB. Ultimately JB only cares about JB and if he thought that dropping Josh would save his image he would. He would say the right things "will always love him but he needs to pay etc" . However if JB has secrets of his own and Josh knows, he may just be protecting his own backside 

I think it goes without saying that Josh has family secrets JB/M don't want to get out...but I wouldn't assume they are sexual secrets based on this.  I can see them being just as upset if their hypocrisy was detailed, especially if Josh came out telling some horrific things of his own that they knew and covered up.

(Not saying you were implying that, but I've seen it elsewhere.)

Between Gothard, the cop, and belonging to the cult where it's not considered odd to protect men from their sexual urges by enforcing modesty standards for little girls show a very disturbing normalization of pedophilia in their culture.  I hope if Josh does know any other predators that he sings when he cuts his eventual plea deal.  

[Bastet]

I remember jb claiming he discovered that incest among families he knows is common. (This prompted a discussion about how it is more likely in patriarchal families.)  It wouldn’t surprise me that he confided this in josh. JB may now get how damaging this is to his brand. 

[Cults-r-us]

13 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I remember jb claiming he discovered that incest among families he knows is common. (This prompted a discussion about how it is more likely in patriarchal families.)  It wouldn’t surprise me that he confided this in josh. JB may now get how damaging this is to his brand. 

Resenting your family at times is pretty normal. For example, "Oh rattones!" I exclaim as I realize I have been walking without wearing the fit-bit. Mr. Cults laughs heartily and I do not feel warmly disposed towsrd him at all.

Meanwhile, I have been thinking that Josh's (and J B's) personality is common in corporate America.  I know my own boss is a narcissist with her favorites and always some poor soul she treats like a turd on the bottom of her shoe who gets to ride along until she scrapes then off. If Josh hadn't been denied education and decent vocational experience, he too could be kicking around his employees like the zillion toxic workplaces that exist.

Christian workplaces might be  worse (or it seems worse because we expect better). I just met a lady who worked for Catholic Charities for several years and was terminated because she hurt her back. A lady I know was written up at her hospital for calling in too late when her husband was in the E.R.  Just lok at that thread on Dave Ramsey! 

 

 

[ContrastingButtons]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

As we have been discussing nature vs nurture I looked for a study I had read about signs on psychopathy in brain scans and although this isn't the one I was looking for it's interesting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933872/

The study I was looking for was done by a doctor who said the results of his study showed he himself was predisposed to psychopathy, but he was non-violent and not involved in criminal acts so his theory is that some people with the predisposition will become psychopaths (current terminology Antisocial Personality Disorder) and others can develop functional emotions even with the pre-disposition if raised in a healthy environment where compassion is modeled, taught, and expected.

He said he could see predisposition by brain scans, as referenced in the article I linked above.  Their brains don't respond to horrific images the way typical people do.

Still looking for the link, but if anyone knows what I'm talking about and can link me I'd appreciate it.

Found it:  https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-neuroscientist-who-discovered-he-was-a-psychopath-180947814/

(if the article I linked above is valid I am definitely not a psychopath, I have a hyper startle reflex to the point it's an actual problem for me at work.)

Yes!  The doctor wrote a whole book about it.  I really liked it.

Edited May 15, 2021 by ContrastingButtons

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

The Physiatrist and the Iceman is a fascinating interview with Richard Kuklinski and Dr Dietz. Really explains how nature and nurture can create a broken human.  I’d post a link but y’all know I can’t on this iPhone with my crap connection.  

The interview is three parts but really informative.

[Jackie3]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

He said he could see predisposition by brain scans, as referenced in the article I linked above.  Their brains don't respond to horrific images the way typical people do.

 

Well, it's a lot more than predisposition. Criminals in prison experienced far more abuse and have much higher ACE scores than the average person.

ACE is "Adverse Childhood Experiences" and is a measure of the level of stress a person experienced in childhood. It measures things like physical and emotional abuse, neglect, etc.

2 hours ago, Cults-r-us said:

I disagree that he could like Anna and the kids.  If he had even a soupcon of feelings for his kids he wouldn't be able to have done what he did and it's been clear he gives no fucks about Anna from the start.  

 

People are capable of incredibly compartmentalization. I mean, the Nazis had families and kids too, yet they spent their day killing other people's kids.

[somanybooks]

I remember JB saying that two-thirds of the families they knew had experienced molestation, which I think is the word he used. I recall being shocked at the time because nearly all the families they know are their same brand of fundamentalist. Now, after doing so much more reading about patriarchy I am no longer shocked.

Edited May 15, 2021 by somanybooks

[Jackie3]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

JB may now get how damaging this is to his brand. 

Their brand is finished. They have no brand. This is the end of the Duggars, and it's also the beginning of a family implosion. 

No church is going to have them speak. No one will buy a used car from them, or even step on their lot. No one is going to go to their stupid home church. No one will give Michelle a mother of the year award.  I'm not sure whether people will even sell real estate to JB (though he could still buy through a straw man, I guess).

Adultery, porn. . . you can get past those things. I see politicians who have cheated on their wives making comebacks all the time, and white collar criminals as well. Pedophilia is another story. There is no way to come back from that. Everyone (fundies, athiests, mainstream religious people) finds it abhorrent.

The result? We have 18 Duggar kids with no education who have been relying on the Duggar brand for income. Many of them have good sized families themselves. There will be no cars to sell and fewer homes to renovate, and so there'll be a greatly reduced income to distribute. What will Josiah, Jedediah, Jeremiah, Joseph, etc do for income? So there's going to be a lot of in-fighting. 

The Duggar kids have gotten used to a nice lifestyle. They won't be happy with $1000 a month from JB instead of the usual $3000. Someone will write a book to get more money. If I were an agent, I'd be emailing them soon. 

I predict a tell-all book by one of the kids (not Josh) within the next 2-3 years. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

25 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

Well, it's a lot more than predisposition. Criminals in prison experienced far more abuse and have much higher ACE scores than the average person.

He did brain scans on more than just prison population, he also did most of his family and others without criminal behavior.

[feministxtian]

10 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

We have 18 Duggar kids with no education who have been relying on the Duggar brand for income.

and they're all screwed. Although, don't discount the leg humpers...

[HerNameIsBuffy]

25 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

Their brand is finished. They have no brand. This is the end of the Duggars, and it's also the beginning of a family implosion. 

There are still people on FJ talking about Jana and the Wiseman guy right now, even to the point of talking about their SM and who is in Branson, which ones may be courting, etc.  

I won't believe the brand is finished until TLC gives more than the tepid "Josh wasn't part of Counting On" response that they did.  If there is a Jana wedding and TLC and People refuse to cover it then I'll buy their brand is dead in the mainstream.  But as of now there is still interest in these people outside of the scandal.  

Gothard stuff coming to light should have been the end of ILBP but people still shell out serious money for their nonsense.  And frankly the molestation stuff should have killed the brand for TLC and didn't - they just rebranded and then let JB and M back on.

Also, if JB/M can spin it effectively in time some of those people absolutely love redemption arcs especially if the topic is salacious enough.  Redemption could be posing it as Josh was, or the family being redeemed from having to weed one of it's precious flowers out of the garden.

I also don't think most people are going to refuse to do real estate transactions with the family as a whole or refuse to use their services outside maybe the car lots which looked sketchy anyway.  They used to have a towing service....I doubt very much someone calling for a tow is going to refuse because the vendor is Duggar owned.  Besides, leave their name off of things and when was the last time you knew the names of owners of services or stores you frequent?  

 

[ILoveJellybeans]

Psychopathy, and whether its nature or nurture is an interesting one, because my brother is a psychopath. We had a dysfunctional childhood, but for some reason, only he turned out this way, and the signs were there for being young. I often thought that our childhood activated something that was inside him all along.

Under a spoiler if you want to know more details, he was a disturbing kid.

Spoiler

 

My younger brothers are 18 months apart, raised exactly the same. There was no discipline and we were always allowed to watch whatever we wanted on TV, and my brothers were watching all manner of violent horror movies by the time they were two, over and over again all day every day (literally just on a loop all day). The younger of the two was never bothered by the violence, didnt seem to mind it, but he always took these scary images into a normal and friendly perspective. He would play nice games with action figures of movie monsters and draw pictures of horror movie serial killers doing wholesome things. He sort of got bored of horror movies when he was about six-his friends hadnt heard of what he liked, so he started getting into the things other six year olds thought were cool and liked that a lot better. 

The oldest of the two was obsessed with the violence, acting it out by playing violent games that broke his toys and drawing pictures of bloody scenes of death and destriction. He loved the violent bits, and would rewind the goriest bits and watch it over and over. He then moved on to video games, spending every waking moment playing violent games. He never had an interest in anything that wasnt violent, all the things for kids his age were for babies. By the time he was eight, I seriously thought he would grow up to be a serial killer. He was so violent towards his younger siblings, especially his little brother. Made his life a misery and was constantly bullying him and being cruel to him, and he never showed remorse. Mum didnt beleive in mental health care and said "boys will be boys"

When he was 10, he was looking up crime scene photos, videos of executions, information on school shooters and serial killers, constant graphic content of real world crimes. He had violent tantrums that lasted hours where he would alternate between screaming and calm, cool detatchment. The sort of kid who could pause a tantrum, look you right in the eye and say calmly "this is what happens when you dont let me do what I want" and then go right back to screaming. the sort of kid who drew pictures of himself committing terrorist attacks and shooting people, and wrote stories about murderers and gangsters with graphic details. The sort of kid who asked to buy gas for a science project (the answer was no, obviously) and then rejected any safer ideas for a school project and said he would just do something else...but the checklist in his room along with a bottle and a rag painted a much darker picture. He stole a knife from the kitchen at age 11, school reported that he had told another kid he had a knife and was going to murder them. He denied it when the school asked him about it, and the knife was never found. I guess he hid it somewhere when his plan was foiled.

He got worse in his teenage years, very physically intimidating and still throwing massive tantrums, running away from home, staying out late, he claimed to be killing small animals for fun but I never found any evidence he did it (other than that one mouse, when he was 12, that was already dead when he found it and decided to dissect it). He's been in prison since the day he was 15 and walked into his school carrying a weapon. Thankfully only one person was injured and nobody died.

Our younger brother, despite the same childhood, is normal. Possibly the most well behaved teenage boy ever, pleasant to be around. He's off to college soon, wants to be a game designer. 

 

 

[allyisyourpally5]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

There are still people on FJ talking about Jana and the Wiseman guy right now, even to the point of talking about their SM and who is in Branson, which ones may be courting, etc.  

I won't believe the brand is finished until TLC gives more than the tepid "Josh wasn't part of Counting On" response that they did.  If there is a Jana wedding and TLC and People refuse to cover it then I'll buy their brand is dead in the mainstream.  But as of now there is still interest in these people outside of the scandal.  

Gothard stuff coming to light should have been the end of ILBP but people still shell out serious money for their nonsense.  And frankly the molestation stuff should have killed the brand for TLC and didn't - they just rebranded and then let JB and M back on.

Also, if JB/M can spin it effectively in time some of those people absolutely love redemption arcs especially if the topic is salacious enough.  Redemption could be posing it as Josh was, or the family being redeemed from having to weed one of it's precious flowers out of the garden.

I also don't think most people are going to refuse to do real estate transactions with the family as a whole or refuse to use their services outside maybe the car lots which looked sketchy anyway.  They used to have a towing service....I doubt very much someone calling for a tow is going to refuse because the vendor is Duggar owned.  Besides, leave their name off of things and when was the last time you knew the names of owners of services or stores you frequent?  

 

A redemption approach is possible but I just think in general the public reaction to a pedophile and CSA crimes is always considerably higher and I don’t think there’s coming back from this.

I think Josh has totally screwed up life for himself, his kids (now forever known for what their dad has done) and Anna (especially if she stands by him). I think JB and Michelle are done too. They won’t be happy and I’m sure they’ll try hard. I’m sure they won’t be 100 % done in their own circle within IBLP but I doubt they will be held up as the golden shining example anymore. 
The remaining Duggar’s - the last few, so Jackson and under, I believe may have an easier wrath just due to their age, If the income disappears I’m sure all will be married off as they turn 18.Is Josie 12? 6 more years of having to feed and provide. I do think this may make people less attracted to “be a Duggar” though and after what Jeremy said about that 50 page questionnaire - “fill in this questionnaire and I will decide if you are godly enough to join are family where we believe and ignore the fact that incest is common and have a pedophile son who we defend and love but don’t do the same for a daughter who we disagreed on some stuff with”. 
I take it back. Most of the Duggar’s are screwed.

 

[DalmatianCat]

3 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Their brand is finished. They have no brand. This is the end of the Duggars, and it's also the beginning of a family implosion. 

The result? We have 18 Duggar kids with no education who have been relying on the Duggar brand for income. Many of them have good sized families themselves. There will be no cars to sell and fewer homes to renovate, and so there'll be a greatly reduced income to distribute. What will Josiah, Jedediah, Jeremiah, Joseph, etc do for income? So there's going to be a lot of in-fighting. 

The Duggar kids have gotten used to a nice lifestyle. They won't be happy with $1000 a month from JB instead of the usual $3000. Someone will write a book to get more money. If I were an agent, I'd be emailing them soon. 

Obviously, no one really knows, but I don’t think life for the married Duggars or teen boys will change all that much because I don’t believe JB is really cutting monthly checks to everyone. I think he takes most of the money from the show and re-invests it in a variety of different businesses, but I don’t think he gives a monthly paycheck to any child who is not actively working for one of his companies as opposed to a company they started on their own (there may be a lot of gray area here). I do think he expects them to get out on their own and make their own money. I think he gives them a little help starting out with housing...they can either choose a property owned by the family or a modest housing allowance and maybe a little seed money to start a business, but in general, I don’t think he’s funding most of kids. I think a lot of the kids choose similar businesses (selling cars, towing, real estate, etc.) but I think most of those are owned by individual kids and they keep that money.

My main reason for thinking this is:

1) Abbie made the comment that after getting married it was weird not getting a regular paycheck because that was how things worked in her family...you worked a job and got a paycheck. She and John David said something to the affect of waiting on investments and sometimes you had to wait for money to come in and that was new to her and made her nervous sometimes. Definitely didn’t sound like they were getting a monthly check from dad (and I don’t think Abbie was lying...it seemed like a genuine comment and something that did still worry her occasionally).

2) None of the Duggar kids seem to be living a luxurious lifestyle outside of (possibly) Jinger and Jeremy. Unlike the Sister Wives they’re not driving Lexus’ or BMW’s. Unlike the Bates girls they’re not regularly going to the salon and getting their nails done or buying lots of new clothes for themselves and their kids. Jessa has a couple Old Navy dresses she wears a lot, Jill seems to get clothes from Amy in exchange for advertising, Joy likes t-shirts and denim skirts, and they all seem to like that big consignment sale where they get tons of used clothes and toys for their kids. They also don’t seem to go on “big” vacations like Disneyworld (Josie was just there) or Sandals (Carlin and Evan). Outside of their honeymoons, most of their trips after getting married seem to be the beach (Jessa and Ben/Joe and Kendra), camping (Joy and Austin) or to visit family/friends. I think they did go skiing a few years ago for the show.

If anyone’s lifestyle would take a hit, I think it would be JB and Michelle’s, but not the kids who are out on their own.