[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh & Anna 31: Charged on 2 LaCounts

[Destiny]

Continued from here:

 

I'm going to reiterate this again, and probably include it in a separate post so I can sticky it, but, again:

DO NOT POST YOUR SPECULATION ON WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE HAPPENED TO MINORS. 

Doing so will take you on a trip to the Closet.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Destiny

[mango_fandango]

I haven’t been able to keep up with the speed of these threads, so can someone explain what the “La” bit in the title means? Is a reference to the county he’s in? 

[Destiny]

Reposting so I can sticky it:

DO NOT POST YOUR SPECULATION ON WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE HAPPENED TO MINORS. 

Doing so will take you on a trip to the Closet.

[FrumperedCat]

7 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

I haven’t been able to keep up with the speed of these threads, so can someone explain what the “La” bit in the title means? Is a reference to the county he’s in? 

It's the name of the Reber patriarch who's family is housing Josh, bit of a pun.

[neuroticcat]

Was posting right as the thread got re-started. Someone had mentioned that we don’t know what the family life was like after Caleb and if there was miscarriage grief or neglect or “spoiling” or “appropriate parenting.” 

I think it’s a valid point that we have very little idea of what might have gone on pre-TLC. By the time of the first specials, they were getting outside help and things were likely somewhat better or polished up for the public. Even JB’s campaigning might have done a little of that . It’s easy to make Josh 100% a villain as though he was spoiled and then acted out, but I think he was just as much a victim of the cult as anyone and had the added reality of being the firstborn who maybe remembered a little bit of normalcy - didn’t he go to normal kindergarten or something? - perhaps with fondness.

The hints we do have of pre-TLC family life are egregious abuse on every level - emotional, spiritual, psychological, physical, and sexual. There were so many children, supervising each other with parents who were working multiple jobs. There were no older teens yet to alleviate this burden or bring in some less of the dogma. Nope, the parental authority would have been absolute and zealously and rigidly aligned with ATI principles. We know there was food scarcity from Jill. We know there was financial instability from the early books - at the very least even if there was sufficient income it was always being reinvested or used for the political campaign. Michelle wrote that she felt bad for wanting a new washing machine for goodness sake but Jim Bob reinvested some money they made into some sort of farm equipment. We know they were crammed into a tiny house square footage wise with zero privacy. Little to no education. Little to no outside relationships - those that were outside of the cult were likely were viewed with distrust. The cult’s gaslighting that all of this was “loving” and “God’s will.” Again and again those kids would have heard their parents’ schpiel and seen people fawn over them within and outside of ATI. If child training hadn’t beaten any resistance out of them, they would have been conditioned to question their own impulses that things were not the way they were suppose to be - continuing into the teenage Journeys and conferences. 

All of this was likely much worse in the early years, and it seems false to me to speculate that Josh was somehow excluded from all of it. He, like all the other older kids, was probably also required to indoctrinate his younger siblings into it. I know we know all of this at FJ, but sometimes I think the commonalities of it can make us a bit numb to all the layers of the abuse and how egregious it all really is with the added punch of TLC spinning it as quaint. I imagine Josh - like nearly all abusers, criminals, and pedophiles - has horror stories of his own victimization. As we’ve discussed to no end this doesn’t excuse him of responsibility or make us required to like him, but it reminds me, at least, that we really so know little of what has gone on in that - or any ATI family (like Anna’s) - over the years.

I think we can say with confidence that it isn’t benign, they weren’t simply grieving a miscarriage or whatever. They were actively abusing their children - and each other -  since they went all-in for ATI.I have yet to encounter anyone who has come out of deep ATI/IBLP without serious trauma and baggage. 

[NakedKnees]

I am about twenty pages behind right now but I did a quick skim and do not think this has been brought up yet (sorry if so). Brenda Marie Davies of the "God Is Grey" Youtube channel posted an hour-long interview with Jen of the Fundie Fridays YouTube channel.

I follow Brenda but not Jen- no offense to Jen (she is extremely likely a long-time, active reader here) but a lot of what she had to add seemed lifted straight from FJ. I'm actually okay with that. Plenty of people would rather get info from YouTube than a message board, and Jen isn't presenting herself as a representative of FJ, so I don't think it's against the rules. All of this to say... I think Fundie Fridays might be a worthier YouTube channel than WOACB. 

Anyway here is the video: 

 

 

I attempted a recap below but it's not that great. I was multitasking and very little information was new to me- let alone will be new to the whole of FJ.

Spoiler

4:00- Jen of Fundie Fridays comes from an atheist background, got interested in talking about fundamentalism via the “Duggar wormhole”

6:55- Desperately hoping crime was money laundering before finding out what it was

7:20- Connection between fundamentalism/purity culture and sexualized crimes like this

9:06- Brenda pronounces Duggar like DOO-gar. Is that common?

10:16- selection of old Duggar clips, including cringeworthy FRC era

11:30- FRC background. Offshoot of Focus on the Family, Dobson related, anti marriage equality and birth control, considered hate group

12:40- I kissed Dating Goodbye, “Joshua Harris is a good guy now” says Jen. Mmm… debatable but okay. He wrote the foreword for Brenda’s memoir “On Her Knees.”

13:49- Chaperoned dating. Friendship is hard to form with partner when your dad is reading all your text messages.

15:51- assessing someone as a potential spouse after a few conversation induced a lot of anxiety for Brenda.

17:10- turning to CSA/CP material case with Josh

17:57- Brenda doesn’t recommend you go down rabbit hole surrounding “Top 5 worst of the worst” quote

19:50: Jen states that they took Josh’s phone during raid because mobile devices can sometimes have “killswitch” programs to adjust what might be apparent on his computer. Also talks about horror at picturing Anna driving Josh to turn himself in. Used desktop and screensaver in addition to password to show that computer with CSA belonged to Josh.

22:10- Brenda quotes Phillipians 4:8 to explain avoiding dark internet rabbit holes. Salaciousness of subject matter can make it hurtful to spend a lot of time looking at it.

23:15- Covenant Eyes discussion

23:30- Jen believes porn addiction is real, but fundies have a warped view of what constitutes it. You’re considered an “addict” for looking at consensual porn once. More examples of conflating CSA with other types of porn in fundie communities. Comparison to “gateway drug” mentality. No sex education.

27:18- review of Duggars’ media popularity and beginnings of downfall during Joshgate 1.0

28:08- brings up that police investigation only happened because Oprah (presumably Oprah’s team) emailed police about tip they received

28:43- brings up Razing Ruth scandal and connection to Josh. Jen cites this as evidence that Josh’s crimes were known in his community.

30:00- TLC is an exploitative channel in general

30:25- Ashley Madison scandal

31:27- Jen finally mentions Free Jinger by name, in regards to “porn addiction” redaction screenshots during Joshgate 2.0

32:36- Danica Dillon. FF says she didn’t use the term “sexual assault,” but I think she has since then

34:00- Joyful available-ness, Michelle’s infamous sandwich quote

35:20- Repressing feelings in conservative Christianity (related to this being what Anna has to do to stay with Josh). She gets elevated by Duggars for suppressing her emotions. Brenda and Jen comment they are here for Anna if she needs it.

36:50- IBLP Abuse wisdom booklet, discussion of Bill Gothard and IBLP, ATI, and scandals.

39:00- Brenda feels a lot of anger about fundie idea that your body and what happens to it doesn’t matter. You belong to God, your father, your husband.

42:10- Brings up Jacob Roloff allegations against TLC staff. Relates to culture of failure to report abuse.

44:00- No systems in place to respond to abusers who call out for help. Brenda uses Jeffrey Dahmer as an example of this. Brenda talks about “these people” (pedophiles) going into her DMs to talk about their feelings and her attitude is “Who CAN they tell?” That being said, is against viewing this as an “orientation.”

47:50- Juvenile molestation is different from adult molestation. Goes into discussion of Megyn Kelly interview, lawsuit to have documents sealed. Not showing Jill/Jessa interview because Brenda and Jen think they did it under some level of duress/ did not want to do it.

53:59- Jen comments “safeguards” Michelle described in interview were not true, there is photo evidence. Brenda comments that if these safeguards are true, they are still sad because of how they prevent boys from experiencing normal love and intimacy because of unfairly applying an adult framework to children’s behavior.

56:00- commentary on “God’s forgiveness” in this context being problematic.

57:30- unfair comparisons of trans people to child molesters. Played robocall, Megyn Kelly interview. Brought up how Michelle whispered to JB to stop talking- I actually didn’t know that, but it’s clear in the interview clip.

1:02:00- Cycle of abuse. Brenda gives 15-y/o Josh credit for asking for help at age 14, but he did not receive the help he needed.

1:03- Some discussion of snark communities. Trying to make it more about learning and understanding than just being mean to others.

 

I love God is Grey and recommend following Brenda for sex-positive, liberal, formerly conservative/evangelical content.

[finnlassie]

This has been such a wild ride that I've had to take a bit of a break from FreeJinger. I've now watched Emily D. Baker cover this on her youtube channel and her way of explaining the law and procidures has made this much easier to manage and understand.

TW: How I have had to deal with CP in my life

Spoiler

I saw literal CP as a literal child (10yrs old), and as a teenager was coerced to read some really disgusting things (yaoi i.e. gay hentai, but shota, which is the........ touching little boys version ) by my online friend group so that I could keep hanging with them. These things are VERY imprinted in my mind and I don't think I'll ever forget some of the images I saw, especially when I was 10. How I came across those images, I don't fucking know and I never wanna know/remember how my internet curiousity got me there. All I know is that I was disgusted and disturbed by it then, and still am, and fuck trauma, fuck every sick person that exploits children, fuck fuck fuck fuckety fuck.

Cases on this very subject will always fascinate me, though, but I think it's only now in the past couple of years that I've learned that I REALLY need to distance myself from the topic if I feel even the SLIGHTEST discomfort.

 

I shall now retreat to watch some sweet, endearing puppy videos.

[Cam]

Well my post got lost during the switch to a new thread on this topic. But the gist of it said: what a tragedy some parishioners deflect and deny the facts of priest pedophilia.  These kind of parishioners do not want the comfort zone they have created for themselves within their church to be disrupted. 

Also, yes, too many priests are coddled and babied by women parishoners. 

And too, there is abuse of nuns by priests as well. Sadly, when a nun reports a priest, whether for sexual sins, physical abuse, financial crimes or whatever, she is often shunned by the other nuns for “tattling”. Anything to keep as much wrongdoing hush hush. And to intimidate other nuns from reporting a priest. 

It’s creepy. 

[hoipolloi]

I've never had the impression that Josh gave a rat's ass about anyone but himself. How his crimes can be spun as less heinous than they are is a mystery to me, but the fact that his dad is spending big, big bucks for the legal team suggests that JB thinks it's possible to mitigate the damage. Personally, I'd like nothing better than if this destroyed the Duggar brand for all time. 

Re: My wishes for the Rebers, especially LaCount "Headship" Reber: 

1. That Mrs. Reber and the daughter would leave that house immediately for the duration.
2. That Headship Reber fully experiences all possible aggravation, expense, and turmoil resulting from his decision to let Josh stay at his home.
3. That Josh fucks up without involving innocent parties and goes back to jail ASAP.
4. That Headship Reber gets charged for being a negligent guardian or whatever, and either pays a fine or goes to the pokey himself.

[Stephanie66]

Off topic a little, but:

Does anyone else think that due to Josh being in prison when M7 is born, Anna will suck up and name her Michelle? 

[Dandruff]

58 minutes ago, Stephanie66 said:

Does anyone else think that due to Josh being in prison when M7 is born, Anna will suck up and name her Michelle?

Doubt it - I don't think Anna needs the Duggars that badly.  How about "Maudlin"?

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when Josh got the call to turn himself in and needed to ask Anna to drive him to the police station.  That conversation must have been something.

[fundiewatch]

I really feel like we could get Mercy Duggar. 

[Bad Wolf]

Misery Duggars, or Miserie.

[SillyDillys]

I am very surprised that she hasn't named one of her daughters Michelle or given it as a middle name. She idolizes that woman, I remember on 19kac she said that she often says 'what would michelle do?' when she gets overwhelmed. 

[choralcrusader8613]

She said on the Josh & Anna: Our Story episode that they were considering it back when Marcus was a baby. IDK if it was a joke or not, but who knows how she feels about that name now.

ETA for newbies: that was filmed soon after they went to DC.

Edited May 11, 2021 by choralcrusader8613

[QuiverFullOfCondoms]

I just remembered that at every single surprise pregnancy announcement from Anna for Josh, Josh was always less than excited. He was always like “oh fuck no, not again!”. Deep down he must be relieved he doesn’t have to deal with all these kids anymore.

[RainbowSky]

Michelle is obvious and her dad is Michael so either would appear to be for both of them. They have a Michael so....

[SassyPants]

Bringing something over from the last thread- Just because many of us cite the responsibility of JB and M in this very, very aberrant debacle, it does not mean we are dismissing Josh’s adult responsibility in it.

They are all part of the problem. They are all dysfunctional.

[choralcrusader8613]

11 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Bringing something over from the last thread- Just because many of us cite the responsibility of JB and M in this very, very aberrant debacle, it does not mean we are dismissing Josh’s adult responsibility in it.

They are all part of the problem. They are all dysfunctional.

Exactly. They may have poured the soil and even allowed some bad plants to grow before trying to rip them out, but at some point, Josh chose to build that "fortress" he claimed Satan made in his heart.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Dandruff said:

Doubt it - I don't think Anna needs the Duggars that badly.  How about "Maudlin"?

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when Josh got the call to turn himself in and needed to ask Anna to drive him to the police station.  That conversation must have been something.

Since “Maudlin” comes from “Magdalen,” the name may be an especially appropriate one, given the situation. ?  Mary Magdalen was associated with weeping (at the cross). She was also (mistakenly) associated with sexual sin and repentance.  I believe fundies still believe she was a reformed prostitute. (In fact, she was almost certainly a favored disciple, and either the first or one of the first to whom the resurrected Jesus appeared.)

As for the conversation between Josh and Anna when he had to turn himself in, I suspect that very little was said beyond that he needed a ride.  She would already have known that there was an investigation, and Josh strikes me as someone who would not waste too many words on Anna.

[kmachete14]

A tweet I saw posted on FB that I feel is relevant to fundie thinking 

[EmCatlyn]

13 minutes ago, QuiverFullOfCondoms said:

I just remembered that at every single surprise pregnancy announcement from Anna for Josh, Josh was always less than excited. He was always like “oh fuck no, not again!”. Deep down he must be relieved he doesn’t have to deal with all these kids anymore.

I have always thought that he didn’t mind having more children. (After all, Anna cares for them and JB supports them, and it does add to Josh’s stature.)   What he minded was that the attention shifted to Anna whenever she was pregnant.  

[amaznmom2u]

Speaking of the prev thread.... I was looking at those real estate purchases. 

What the hell kind of property can you buy for 2k, even in Arkansas?

[luv2laugh]

I wish a team of PhD research psychologists could study the Duggar family dynamics. It would be fascinating to see a breakdown of their analysis on what may be nature vs. nurture.

Also, I think Anna hasn't wanted to leave Josh (besides the cult, finances, fundie peer pressure etc) because she's deeply emotionally enmeshed with him. If Josh died tomorrow, I don't think she would be able to emotionally function for a long time. I think she lives in fear of not experiencing daily life with him. He will likely spend some time in prison so, she will have to learn how to adjust without him. I wonder if once she overcomes the big adjustment to his absence, she will still want him to return (whenever he's released).

Edited May 11, 2021 by luv2laugh

[OrchidBlossom]

I just read @formergothardite’s insights on community reactions (and @HerNameIsBuffy thank you for pointing it out! These threads are moving so fast I missed it). It makes a lot of sense. I hope it means she may divorce him. Although if I were her I’d be wary of what it would mean for his ability to get custody, I suppose if he does end up convicted he’d probably get supervised visitation (although family law isn’t my specialty so I’m not sure of the exact risk, but it seems low).
 

@Jackie3 I think you did make a great point about how his obligations don’t necessarily shift, although that isn’t entirelyyyy true (in the sense of how complicated child support can be, I mean: that right now he presumptively managed his own money so he decided how much money to allocate to Anna’s needs or the M’s needs versus his own wants, and I’m somehow guessing he didn’t give them the same consideration a judge will when Josh is ordered to pay a % of his income to Anna). But you’re definitely right that at first blush he may not see it as likely to change much. But I guess I just see him as like, such a lazy MFer. And if there are civil suits down the line for this or other behavior, or if his lawyer fees for the criminal case dry up the well, he will also be a broke MFer. I don’t see the Bank of JB funding a divorce action though I could see him funding a defense to Anna divorcing him, maybe. That’s sort of why I can more easily see Josh just bouncing, but not going through the effort to find a lawyer, pay a lawyer, figure out custody and child spousal support, go to mediations, all that. And I guess if he’s planning to be a deadbeat, being a deadbeat dad can be a bit tricky in this day and age if you’re relatively high profile. It’s much easier to find someone and garnish their bank accounts, etc. than it once was. I can’t imagine Anna would be at a loss for lawyers volunteering to help, both fundie and non, if she wanted to go after him. If josh wants to go deadbeat, might be easier to just disappear! Then again I don’t know if he’s smart enough to think that all through... 
 

I could be wrong. I mean I hope I’m wrong somehow, someone needs to divorce someone and the sooner the better!