[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh&Anna 27:How Many Robocalls Did Michelle Make to Warn People about Her Son

[Angelface]

36 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I’ve thought about that but I feel like JB had to know. They transferred assets to Anna and JB married off a ton.

The transfer of assets is more an indication that they thought that this was to do with financial matters/ tax issues. At least that is how I interpreted it. If Josh told JB that he was being investigated for financial reasons it makes sense to put his assets into Anna’s name.
Perhaps the charges have blindsided the whole family. Going to Big Sandy and speaking there is a very strange thing to do if you knew that Josh was going to be arrested and especially if you knew what the charges alleged. The baby announcement doesn’t make any sense in the light of all that has just happened. I think that there is a very real possibility that Josh hoped that he had hidden things sufficiently and that the federal investigation would be regarding financial matters. He may have had very little notice of the arrest. Why would the feds show their hand before they needed to or give any people connected with this any warning? JB may have worried that it was more than Josh was saying but he may have been kept in the dark. 
Josh appears to be someone who tells people what they want to hear and struggles to to face and to tell the truth even when it is staring him in the face and is beyond reasonable doubt. I don’t know if he believes his own excuses or if he hopes that he can buy himself some time to talk himself out of whatever mess he is in. 
IF the family has been blindsided by this I think that they are all going to need therapy to process it. 

[Nike]

3 minutes ago, Jess said:

 

Authorities do a terrible job of talking to each other. Also, these busts are usually done to get a lot of them at the same time. So, they probably took dozens of computers ect from people around the same time who were found  by the same source, then they had to review all the electronics. They probably had bigger fish who were distributing picked up who took priority. 

A bit of self-disclosure. My now ex was involved in possession and distribution of child pornography some years back. The police came to arrest him and when they found out we had children living at home the first thing they did was call social services. I live in the UK but I I thought that this was standard procedure. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, Scrappinmac said:

What about the lawyer, or someone connected to the lawyer? They would have to abide by the rules or risk losing their license. I don't know how any family member could be trusted.

This is someone who has to live with him.  How much money would it take to get a lawyer to agree to live with Josh and assume responsibility for him?

Of course no one in the family can be trusted, but that doesn't mean the court won't just stamp them approved anyway because they meet the criteria on paper.  The courts free dangerous people and even put kids with unfit guardians all the time so I don't have a lot of faith that they'll do the right thing.

I do have hope that they'll be more careful this time due to it being high profile.  If they release him to some younger sibling and something bad happens the judge will get a lot of public blowback.

 

4 minutes ago, Nike said:

A bit of self-disclosure. My now ex was involved in possession and distribution of child pornography some years back. The police came to arrest him and when they found out we had children living at home the first thing they did was call social services. I live in the UK but I I thought that this was standard procedure. 

It should be standard procedure, but in a system where they let him live with and have access to kids for damn near two years after they started investigating who knows what they consider their obligation.

I bet JB and M are praying the judge denies bail just to spare them the PR nightmare of either bailing him out and thus showing the public they support him, or letting him sit there and sending the message to the public that they don't.

 

[Xan]

24 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

The Tinker Toy House is uninhabitable? No one is living in that monster? What happened? 

I think the house @marmalade was talking about was the house that Josh and Anna bought and tried to sell.  That's the one that's uninhabitable.  Alas, the TTH is as it always was -- a sty that's full of people.

I'm sure Jim Bob will lean on someone to babysit Josh.  Maybe he even has hopes that the lawyers will get Josh off and they can try to paper over this.  My guess is, if he can't find a family friend to do it, he'll make Jeremiah be Josh's minder.

If Josh had any integrity (which I seriously doubt), he'd just make a plea deal and go on to jail.  If Josh has any brains (which is also debatable), he'd pressure Jim Bob into promising support for the M kids in exchange for Josh not spilling his guts to every person offering to ghostwrite a tell-all.  That's what should really keep Jim Bob up at night.  At this point, Josh has little left to lose by blabbing.

 

[Jess]

8 minutes ago, Scrappinmac said:

What about the lawyer, or someone connected to the lawyer? They would have to abide by the rules or risk losing their license. I don't know how any family member could be trusted.

Highly unlikely, his lawyer is his lawyer he isn’t going to let a client move in. It would raise a crap load of ethical issues to have a client live with you. 

2 minutes ago, Nike said:

A bit of self-disclosure. My now ex was involved in possession and distribution of child pornography some years back. The police came to arrest him and when they found out we had children living at home the first thing they did was call social services. I live in the UK but I I thought that this was standard procedure. 

It probably should be, but I think here with the system we have it can lead to this not happening. I obviously know zero details about Josh’s specific case. But often how these things happen is Federal agents arrest a distributor uncovers say 40 people he sent things to. They try to keep it secret so that people don’t delete things before they can get search warrants. Te Feds have local offices get warrents and do searches. These local guys just know they are going to pick up electronics for an ongoing investigation and may not even know it’s a CP investigation. All those people have phones, tablets, hard drives, lab tops, desk tops ect. so you end up with 200 devices to search. People decide on priorities so it really can take months/years to know one specific person had things on his computer and is being charged. Obviously if the local agents see child abuse they are mandatory reporters. Or if the images found are of his children. Morally it should be reported even if it doesn’t fall under mandatory reporting requirements, but people often prioritize their current investigation.

[Nike]

It's almost laughable that Michelle said "leave and cleave" when Josh married. Not only they've been supporting him and his kids but they are continuing to mop up his continuous messes.

[Scrappinmac]

8 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

This is someone who has to live with him.  How much money would it take to get a lawyer to agree to live with Josh and assume responsibility for him?

Of course no one in the family can be trusted, but that doesn't mean the court won't just stamp them approved anyway because they meet the criteria on paper.  The courts free dangerous people and even put kids with unfit guardians all the time so I don't have a lot of faith that they'll do the right thing.

I do have hope that they'll be more careful this time due to it being high profile.  If they release him to some younger sibling and something bad happens the judge will get a lot of public blowback.

 

It should be standard procedure, but in a system where they let him live with and have access to kids for damn near two years after they started investigating who knows what they consider their obligation.

I bet JB and M are praying the judge denies bail just to spare them the PR nightmare of either bailing him out and thus showing the public they support him, or letting him sit there and sending the message to the public that they don't.

 

I should have explained it better- my thought was for Josh to live with the lawyer or someone connected to the lawyer. The lawyer is a family friend and would have better control over Josh. It would be the lawyer's neck on the line if he doesn't keep an eye on Josh.  Denying bail is a good solution to the issue.

[QuiverFullOfCondoms]

I haven’t seen this mentioned (or have missed it), but given the nature of his charges the judge would probably order Josh not to have access to the internet and not poses or have access to any devices with internet access capability (eg smartphones, tablets, laptops, computers).

Since we know Josh does whatever Josh wants, good luck to his babysitter enforcing that! 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

14 minutes ago, Angelface said:

The transfer of assets is more an indication that they thought that this was to do with financial matters/ tax issues. At least that is how I interpreted it. If Josh told JB that he was being investigated for financial reasons it makes sense to put his assets into Anna’s name.
Perhaps the charges have blindsided the whole family. Going to Big Sandy and speaking there is a very strange thing to do if you knew that Josh was going to be arrested and especially if you knew what the charges alleged. The baby announcement doesn’t make any sense in the light of all that has just happened. I think that there is a very real possibility that Josh hoped that he had hidden things sufficiently and that the federal investigation would be regarding financial matters. He may have had very little notice of the arrest. Why would the feds show their hand before they needed to or give any people connected with this any warning? JB may have worried that it was more than Josh was saying but he may have been kept in the dark. 
Josh appears to be someone who tells people what they want to hear and struggles to to face and to tell the truth even when it is staring him in the face and is beyond reasonable doubt. I don’t know if he believes his own excuses or if he hopes that he can buy himself some time to talk himself out of whatever mess he is in. 
IF the family has been blindsided by this I think that they are all going to need therapy to process it. 

I believe it's likely most of the family was blindsided, I can't imagine them telling the other kids (or Anna) ahead of time with the mindset of hoping they'll find a way to weasel out of it and no one will have to know.

I cannot imagine, however, that JB and M didn't know.  JB is no scholar, but he's not stupid and wouldn't take Josh's word for something that will impact his brand like a nuclear bomb.  

As far as the Feds go, I also don't understand why they'd tip their hand, but so many people on here have posted that they generally do give advanced warning and offer to turn yourself in so it must be a thing.  I don't understand it, though.  Surely you risk dangerous people fleeing if you let them know you'll be around sometime soon to arrest them.

Sadly I think the baby announcement does make perfect sense.  I can easily see them not tellng Anna or just telling her everything will be fine, then they went along with the reveal to pretend everything was normal.  

The Big Sandy thing is what makes me think they didn't have advance warning.  I can see wanting to get the kids out of the house if you know it's coming, but to be there when the news breaks?  I can't imagine why that would be, unless it was again just about acting normal hoping this will somehow go away.

[Drala]

33 minutes ago, Smee said:

Gah, my eyes are falling out of my head with tiredness and I can’t catch up on all the posts. I find the discussion about addiction and pornography on the previous thread verrry interesting. I’m a PhD student looking into addiction, but from a humanities /literature angle. I’ve read some fascinating stuff about how addiction is defined and how it’s been understood differently in different time periods and contexts. I have SO MANY thoughts but no capacity to type them up now and by the time I wake tomorrow the thread will have tripled in length and moved on

I also found the discussion on pornography and addiction interesting. The posts on consensual sex work vs trafficking and how these things are associated or not with porn are also fascinating.  The thread moves so quickly, I don't have time to ask questions or comment.

[Nike]

Was the baby announcement a bit later than normal in Anna's pregnancy? Just wondering if those who know timed it close to arrest date to get as much sympathy as possible. 

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I hope Jed and Katy say no to taking on Josh, they are young newlyweds and don't need the responsibility of Josh. Same goes for Jana if she is about to get engaged then why should she deal with him either. Jim Bob and Michelle do share blame for how they acted when he offended first time but Ultimately Josh is an adult and this is his mess and his siblings shouldn't be expected to be the ones who make sure he follows bail conditions. 

They could also have JB (or Michelle) - move into one of their many houses with Josh temporarily to act as custodian. If I were them I’d have JB do it as he could exert the most control. 

I noticed in the Judge’s statement that she said “unsupervised visits by children” . Which means they might allow supervised visits. I don’t know if the custodian also acts as supervisor in that case, or if they hire someone, or a social worker is present.  I’ve seen several different arrangements for this, but generally with something this high-risk to kids it involves a paid and trained person sitting nearby while the parent and child(ren) play/visit for an hour or two in a neutral setting. Another family member - probably Anna - might be present too. But I’d be surprised if they let just family be the supervisor at this point.

I suppose the degree of restrictions the judge imposes, to the extent she has flexibility, might depend on if there are 1 or 2 csa images mixed in with 5,000 regular porn videos - or the other way around. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

17 minutes ago, Xan said:

I think the house @marmalade was talking about was the house that Josh and Anna bought and tried to sell.  That's the one that's uninhabitable.  Alas, the TTH is as it always was -- a sty that's full of people.

I'm sure Jim Bob will lean on someone to babysit Josh.  Maybe he even has hopes that the lawyers will get Josh off and they can try to paper over this.  My guess is, if he can't find a family friend to do it, he'll make Jeremiah be Josh's minder.

If Josh had any integrity (which I seriously doubt), he'd just make a plea deal and go on to jail.  If Josh has any brains (which is also debatable), he'd pressure Jim Bob into promising support for the M kids in exchange for Josh not spilling his guts to every person offering to ghostwrite a tell-all.  That's what should really keep Jim Bob up at night.  At this point, Josh has little left to lose by blabbing.

 

He doesn't have to pressure JB to support the M kids, the publicity of not doing so would make him look like less of a man in his circles and show the world he doesn't support those under his umbrella of protection.  And to not support them (and Anna) would show the fundieverse how important it is for women to be able to support their children should they end up alone.   That could result in smaller families and educated, employed/employable moms ...what would Jesus say about that?

ETA great point about fearing a tell all.  They do have to keep some value to Josh because you're right, if he thinks he has nothing to lose they have no control.

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[Nike]

3 minutes ago, Drala said:

I also found the discussion on pornography and addiction interesting. The posts on consensual sex work vs trafficking and how these things are associated or not with porn are also fascinating.  The thread moves so quickly, I don't have time to ask questions or comment.

My 2 cents. My ex was addicted to alcohol in his youth. He knowingly became addicted to cigarettes when he stopped drinking. He never wanted to go into games arcades because he said that he had an "addictive personality". When it emerged that he had been involved in child pornography he said that he "had been unable to stop". Of course, in order to get hooked on something you have to try it in the first place.

[FiveAcres]

At this point, I wonder if JimBob and Michelle are just tempted to throw Josh under the bus, especially after the lawyers get a chance to look at the discovery. 

"This is the hardest thing we have ever done in our lives. However, we can no longer support Josh since he has refused the grace of God to give him the strength to overcome his weakness. Although we will always love Josh, we deplore the choices he has made, and we feel that we now must focus on helping our beloved daughter-in-law and her children to heal. After Josh has faced the consequences of his actions, and accepted the grace of God which is available to all of us, we will welcome him back into the family." 

Tough love, baby. Aren't conservatives all about the tough love?

[Freejin]

1 minute ago, FiveAcres said:

At this point, I wonder if JimBob and Michelle are just tempted to throw Josh under the bus, especially after the lawyers get a chance to look at the discovery. 

"This is the hardest thing we have ever done in our lives. However, we can no longer support Josh since he has refused the grace of God to give him the strength to overcome his weakness. Although we will always love Josh, we deplore the choices he has made, and we feel that we now must focus on helping our beloved daughter-in-law and her children to heal. After Josh has faced the consequences of his actions, and accepted the grace of God which is available to all of us, we will welcome him back into the family." 

Tough love, baby. Aren't conservatives all about the tough love?

If only. 

[Cults-r-us]

46 minutes ago, Smee said:

Gah, my eyes are falling out of my head with tiredness and I can’t catch up on all the posts. I find the discussion about addiction and pornography on the previous thread verrry interesting. I’m a PhD student looking into addiction, but from a humanities /literature angle. I’ve read some fascinating stuff about how addiction is defined and how it’s been understood differently in different time periods and contexts. I have SO MANY thoughts but no capacity to type them up now and by the time I wake tomorrow the thread will have tripled in length and moved on

I remember reading teenage Josh developed a porn problem. I also recall Danica Dillon complaining he acted like he believed porn was real. (I also recall reading an interview with D.D 's sister who said while they did have sex, DD. Made up the part about Josh throwing her around for publicity)

I believe this was addressed in his rehab because remember he was only allowed a flip phone? It was apparently a recurring compulsion he could not control.

So, in conclusion, coupled with Josh's young age, lack of normal life experience, mysogynist cult attitudes, overriding horniness and probable personality disorder, porn was damaging for him without an outside influence to put things in perspective.

46 minutes ago, Smee said:

Gah, my eyes are falling out of my head with tiredness and I can’t catch up on all the posts. I find the discussion about addiction and pornography on the previous thread verrry interesting. I’m a PhD student looking into addiction, but from a humanities /literature angle. I’ve read some fascinating stuff about how addiction is defined and how it’s been understood differently in different time periods and contexts. I have SO MANY thoughts but no capacity to type them up now and by the time I wake tomorrow the thread will have tripled in length and moved on

I remember reading teenage Josh developed a porn problem. I also recall Danica Dillon complaining he acted like he believed porn was real. (I also recall reading an interview with D.D 's sister who said while they did have sex, DD. Made up the part about Josh throwing her around for publicity)

I believe this was addressed in his rehab because remember he was only allowed a flip phone? It was apparently a recurring compulsion he could not control.

So, in conclusion, coupled with Josh's young age, lack of normal life experience, mysogynist cult attitudes, overriding horniness and probable personality disorder, porn was damaging for him without an outside influence to put things in perspective.

[picklepizzas]

Yeah I’m definitely on team blindsided, for all of them, mostly because of the shocked brevity of their statements. If JB and M knew this was coming I somehow feel they’d have had a better statement prepared than the one they did. I can easily believe josh just shrugged off the 2019 raid to his family as baseless persecution for being famous and Christian and, as time went on without any follow-up I could see the family mostly forgetting about it (or at least assuming it was something mundane). 
 

also, bc I saw this discussed a couple of times - in the article I read they said that Jill commented on Friday that she’d just found out the day before.  He was arrested on Thursday - so she found out the same day all of us did, she wasn’t told a day ahead of time  

I am also team Amy re: was he smiling?! I had the exact same reaction when I watched the booking video and couldn’t tell if I was just primed to think that bc of the mugshot. The fact that she saw it too, tho, makes me feel like maybe he was! Wtf

i really hope Anna is questioned as part of this investigation. That might actually be the wake-up call she needs - separated away from her usual influences with investigators that can impress upon her how serious of a possibility it is she could lose the kids if she doesn’t cooperate/shape up and comply with court orders on their safety. I think the only way Anna leaves is if she thinks she will lose the kids if she doesn’t. 

 

[Drala]

2 minutes ago, Nike said:

My 2 cents. My ex was addicted to alcohol in his youth. He knowingly became addicted to cigarettes when he stopped drinking. He never wanted to go into games arcades because he said that he had an "addictive personality". When it emerged that he had been involved in child pornography he said that he "had been unable to stop". Of course, in order to get hooked on something you have to try it in the first place.

When you think about the harsh penalties for getting caught with child porn and the extreme stigma associated with being charged with or convicted of CSA, a person who indulges in this sort of activity would seem to be unable to control their behavior.  Such a lack of self control can be described as either insanity or addiction.

[Free Felicity]

As far as the Big Sandy thing, do they get paid to appear/speak there by any chance? If so, maybe they wanted the income before the well was to run dry? Perhaps they agreed to be there well before an arrest was imminent? Even if they knew it was coming, maybe they didn't want to jump start the rumor mill by having a last minute cancelation? 

I hope he stays locked up until trial or a plea deal and sentencing. His siblings should no longer have to put up with his mess and be responsible for him. 

I know that legally speaking he doesn't have a record, but his vile actions toward his sisters are well known publicly and not disputed. I wonder if that would be enough to be considered in sentencing and if his sisters could testify against him as character witnesses? I know that wouldn't be easy on them and they shouldn't have to testify but perhaps it might help them feel justice was served a little bit for them too?

I'm so angry that he wasn't stopped sooner. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

13 minutes ago, Cults-r-us said:

So, in conclusion, coupled with Josh's young age, lack of normal life experience, mysogynist cult attitudes, overriding horniness and probable personality disorder, porn was damaging for him without an outside influence to put things in perspective.

That is a lot of excuses you've bundled up in a lovely package for him.

The millions upon millions of current and former teenage boys who dealt with over riding horniness, lack of life experience, raised by people with sexist attitudes who never sexually abused anyone would like a word.

13 minutes ago, Drala said:

When you think about the harsh penalties for getting caught with child porn and the extreme stigma associated with being charged with or convicted of CSA, a person who indulges in this sort of activity would seem to be unable to control their behavior.  Such a lack of self control can be described as either insanity or addiction.

Or it could be someone who was raised to think he's exempt from consequences and in magical thinking will risk it thinking getting caught is for other people.

I doubt very much these are the first such images he's received, you do something illegal long enough without getting caught you get a false sense of security.

21 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

At this point, I wonder if JimBob and Michelle are just tempted to throw Josh under the bus, especially after the lawyers get a chance to look at the discovery. 

"This is the hardest thing we have ever done in our lives. However, we can no longer support Josh since he has refused the grace of God to give him the strength to overcome his weakness. Although we will always love Josh, we deplore the choices he has made, and we feel that we now must focus on helping our beloved daughter-in-law and her children to heal. After Josh has faced the consequences of his actions, and accepted the grace of God which is available to all of us, we will welcome him back into the family." 

Tough love, baby. Aren't conservatives all about the tough love?

They should hire you because that's really good...and literally the only approach from a PR standpoint they could take.

 

[QuiverFullOfCondoms]

4 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Or it could be someone who was raised to think he's exempt from consequences and in magical thinking will risk it thinking getting caught is for other people.

I doubt very much these are the first such images he's received, you do something illegal long enough without getting caught you get a false sense of security.

He was likely raised with the belief that earthly/secular rules don’t really apply to him, and only Godly/ATI rules apply to him.

[FiveAcres]

2 minutes ago, QuiverFullOfCondoms said:

He was likely raised with the belief that earthly/secular rules don’t really apply to him, and only Godly/ATI rules apply to him.

...and when you have the urge to sexually assault a five year old, it is her fault because she tempted you. (Evil little hussy)

[Mama Mia]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

 

I doubt very much these are the first such images he's received, you do something illegal long enough without getting caught you get a false sense of security.

While I really hope it’s “only” a couple of videos he’s received - I think it’s far more likely it’s quite a few. It wouldn’t make much sense for the Feds to go to all this trouble and expense if it’s something he could explain away as a very bad result when he searched for “hot young girls” or whatever. 

[nelliebelle1197]

1 hour ago, Scrappinmac said:

What about the lawyer, or someone connected to the lawyer? They would have to abide by the rules or risk losing their license. I don't know how any family member could be trusted.

Why would a lawyer give up his life to live with Josh Duggar? The Duggars have some resources but they are not at a level of wealth like a Howard Hughes where they can pay professionals with careers, family and advanced degrees to throwing away lives and livelihoods.