[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh&Anna 27:How Many Robocalls Did Michelle Make to Warn People about Her Son

[WiseGirl]

I think it was @AussieKrissy who said she works with pedophiles. The chances of Turd ever recovering are slim. From Harvard Health Publishing

"Like other sexual orientations, pedophilia is unlikely to change. The goal of treatment, therefore, is to prevent someone from acting on pedophile urges — either by decreasing sexual arousal around children or increasing the ability to manage that arousal. But neither is as effective for reducing harm as preventing access to children, or providing close supervision."

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/pessimism-about-pedophilia

Turd should never be allowed near any of his children, nieces, nephews, any children ever.

[SnarkyLawyer]

1 minute ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Are you American?  I would love it if we focused more on rehabilitation and restitution rather than punishment for so many crimes. Since our criminal justice system is overwhelmingly comprised of poor people and poor people of color, the generations of unconscious and conscious bias has caused the powers that be in most cases to write off criminals and the incarcerated, leaving them without a real opportunity to rehabilitate. I would much prefer people with mental illness, even if they are violent criminals, to be housed in appropriate treatment facilities where even if they never get out they get the treatments they need and the psychiatric community can learn from them for the future.  And lower level criminals should get rehabilitation and job skills with the ability opportunity to work and have a decent place to try again when they get out. I don't know how it would work and it is likely a pipe dream, but I think most people can be rehabilitated if given the education, confidence, skills, tools and encouragement to succeed.

My daughter is now in law school, and we have been discussing this very thing. ???

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, ven said:

Rumor goes she has learning disabilities stemming from birth  

I'm not going to internet diagnose Pris and I hope this doesn't turn into a bunch of strangers tossing out theories about whatever difficulties she may or may not have.

My heart has always gone out to Pris and she's the one fundy in this entire shitshow I don't blame.  On the other hand her parents and David Waller can die in a fire...or separate fires, I'm okay either way.

 

[nokidsmom]

And I think the "childlike" mannerisms are encouraged more than we know.  Back in my days at an conservative evangelical college I was astounded to encounter some young women who basically acted like kids.   Not most of them but the few who did, it was rather disconcerting to deal with them.  I remember one discussion where one classmate basically engaged in baby talk.

[Jess]

1 hour ago, SorenaJ said:

If Josh gets convicted, would he lose custody over the kids, or would he still have a say in decisions like medical treatment, education etc.? 

I don’t really think Anna will divorce him, but if she does she would have a good case for custody with him only getting supervised visits. If she doesn’t divorce him it would be up to state CPS to impose any restrictions. 

1 hour ago, FunDieDumDum said:

 

If he’s found guilty of knowingly seeking out and viewing CSA material of a child under 12, it’s very likely that even after he’s released from prison his parole conditions would prohibit him from even seeing his kids without supervision, much less living with them.

If that happens, it’d be a while before Anna would even likely be faced with the decision of whether to let him back into the house with her and the kids. But once she is, I could see her saying no to living with him again, yet not be willing to divorce him because “marriage is for eternity”, blah blah.

 

He is being charged federally in the US there is no longer federal parol you serve your time minus good behavior and then your done so he won’t have any parole restrictions. State courts do pretty much always have parole and impose those restrictions. 

12 minutes ago, FunDieDumDum said:

Question to anyone more familiar with US federal law than I am (which is to say, not at all): if Josh is found guilty on the two counts he’s being charged with, could the judge order at least an evaluation of his kids who are old enough to be interviewed, to attempt to determine if any actual sexual abuse has occurred? Or is that not allowed even with a conviction on a charge that strongly indicates abuse is a possibility?

Now that the story has broken I would hope that state CPS is involved and will make sure that the kids are safe with Anna. Hopefully, they interview the children and if they need intervention they will receive it. If Anna does not cooperate they can go to a family court judge and get a court order to interview the children. In the US system these would be handled by completely different agencies and court systems. Josh is charged in federal court and any court matter in regards to his child would be in state family court. So, Josh’s judge will not have anything at all to do with any potential family court issues. The two systems do a terrible job of talking to each other in general, but given the high profile nature it is certain that someone has called in a report and local CPS will now open an investigation.

2 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

I have no idea what the law is regarding the children, but my hope is that a Guardian Ad Litem will be assigned for all the M's, and possibly the minor Duggar kids. The GAL would then set up interviews, exams if necessary, etc. I truly don't know if that will happen tho. If my grand kids got assigned a GAL during a routine divorce and custody hearing, you would think that in a case this serious the courts would assign someone to look out for the kids interest and only the kids interest. We can only hope. 

In order for a GAL to be assigned the CPS investigation would need to find something to justify opening a case. I think having these charges pending is a string indicator there may be grounds, but that doesn’t mean it will happen. If nothing happened to his children, Anna didn’t know, and he is not living at the house anymore the investigation may come back unfounded with no court case being opened.

[nelliebelle1197]

1 minute ago, SnarkyLawyer said:

My daughter is now in law school, and we have been discussing this very thing. ???

It's the kids like her who will make these changes. The people behind us see the inequities with clarity it seems!

[Cheetah]

Just wanted to say thanks to all of the admins and mods (not even sure if those are the same thing or if we have both here) for keeping everything running around here!  A big job especially when the threads move so quickly.

[nokidsmom]

3 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Anna can leave, it will be hard but she has options. She has a teaching degree that means a Christian private school would probably hire her. 

Agreed, there would probably be a school who would hire her, even if to help her out.  I expect that there's plenty of people in even fundie circles out there who would sympathize and lend her a hand.  

 

[SnarkyLawyer]

2 minutes ago, Jess said:

I don’t really think Anna will divorce him, but if she does she would have a good case for custody with him only getting supervised visits. If she doesn’t divorce him it would be up to state CPS to impose any restrictions. 

He is being charged federally in the US there is no longer federal parol you serve your time minus good behavior and then your done so he won’t have any parole restrictions. State courts do pretty much always have parole and impose those restrictions. 

Now that the story has broken I would hope that state CPS is involved and will make sure that the kids are safe with Anna. Hopefully, they interview the children and if they need intervention they will receive it. If Anna does not cooperate they can go to a family court judge and get a court order to interview the children. In the US system these would be handled by completely different agencies and court systems. Josh is charged in federal court and any court matter in regards to his child would be in state family court. So, Josh’s judge will not have anything at all to do with any potential family court issues. The two systems do a terrible job of talking to each other in general, but given the high profile nature it is certain that someone has called in a report and local CPS will now open an investigation.

In order for a GAL to be assigned the CPS investigation would need to find something to justify opening a case. I think having these charges pending is a string indicator there may be grounds, but that doesn’t mean it will happen. If nothing happened to his children, Anna didn’t know, and he is not living at the house anymore the investigation may come back unfounded with no court case being opened.

I don't mean to counter anything you said. Family Law isn't my specialty, although sometimes overlapped. From a law enforcement perspective, investigators now have legal reason to interview the family, to determine whether additional charges should be brought. So, for that reason alone, family members will be interviewed.

[nelliebelle1197]

7 minutes ago, Cheetah said:

Just wanted to say thanks to all of the admins and mods (not even sure if those are the same thing or if we have both here) for keeping everything running around here!  A big job especially when the threads move so quickly.

Just FYI- There are three admins - Curious, Destiny and Buffy- they do all the tech stuff and all the hard stuff; sister moms are just mods who can help out admin in some limited ways. Me, Coconut Flan and a couple others got sucked by Curious because we post too much :p. Helpmeets are moderators and basically the same as sister moms who did not get suckered by Curious!

Edited May 2, 2021 by nelliebelle1197

[Idlewild]

13 minutes ago, JessaBlessa said:

That explains Michelle's way of speaking.

I did comment in another thread pre Josh’s arrest that I have always assumed that baby voice was for public consumption. When the cameras aren’t rolling I bet she barks like a sergeant major.

[FunDieDumDum]

Thank you @SnarkyLawyer, @Jess and all others for the helpful information on the legal side of things. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see how this plays out.

In the meantime I hope that Anna and especially the kids are getting some real support, and not just more indoctrination, pressure and blame. ?

[Not that josh's mom]

I have some random thoughts after reading forever! 

A week ago Jill posted on her instagram about so much stress in their lives right now. That makes me wonder if she realized something was happening.

Do we know if Jill, Jessa, Jinger and Joy ever really got professional counseling? Or were they just talking with a church person?

Didn't the court info say Josh couldn't have "unsupervised" contact with children? Not that he couldn't have any contact? So he an still be around children if other adults are present?

Several people have mentioned Anna and children moving into the main house. Why couldn't she remain in her home, even windowless, and have help from the younger Duggar girls? And of course, financially from JB. It seems that would be one less disruption to those poor kids lives.

Not one of Josh's siblings is capable of being his guardian. They have all been taught that he is in authority. JD might stand to him, but why should he disrupt his family? 

If his picture wasn't so smug and if he wasn't smiling, at his intake video, I might  just possibly have thought  he understood the seriousness.  He assumes he'll get by with this like always.

Anna, JB and M absolutely must see there is a real problem! We all want to believe our kids couldn't  be horrible people, but this is impossible to ignore.

Didn't add a thing to what others have said, but needed to say it.

[seraaa]

10 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Are you American?  I would love it if we focused more on rehabilitation and restitution rather than punishment for so many crimes. Since our criminal justice system is overwhelmingly comprised of poor people and poor people of color, the generations of unconscious and conscious bias has caused the powers that be in most cases to write off criminals and the incarcerated, leaving them without a real opportunity to rehabilitate. I would much prefer people with mental illness, even if they are violent criminals, to be housed in appropriate treatment facilities where even if they never get out they get the treatments they need and the psychiatric community can learn from them for the future.  And lower level criminals should get rehabilitation and job skills with the ability opportunity to work and have a decent place to try again when they get out. I don't know how it would work and it is likely a pipe dream, but I think most people can be rehabilitated if given the education, confidence, skills, tools and encouragement to succeed.

I am not, but here in the UK we have many of the same problems, I believe. I agree with you! This is all so well said - it  would be a much better and more humane system which would help the indivduals, their families and society at large.

It gives people a real chance to learn from their mistakes and make a new start. I too dream of a system which is better about actually addressing harms and the causes of those harms.

[nokidsmom]

5 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

I did comment in another thread pre Josh’s arrest that I have always assumed that baby voice was for public consumption. When the cameras aren’t rolling I bet she barks like a sergeant major.

To the bolded: I think this happens but only when she's really mad and the family has learned to tiptoe around her to keep that from happening as often as it did before.  Because I didn't think the meltdown in the laundry room was an isolated incident.  Or just having a bad day.  It was all the time. 

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by nokidsmom
Clarification

[Idlewild]

I have no time for any of the Duggars and their dangerous beliefs.

However I do not see why any of the siblings should make any accommodations for Josh. It would meant they could have little or no contact with the children in their family and they will be known as the people with a CSE offender in their house. Stay in jail,Josh, you know it makes sense.

[irish_dancing_canadian]

Okay so I’m a couple forums behind trying to catch up but I do got some things to say, as we all do.

As much as I hate to say this, I’m not surprised this has all unfolded. If only Josh got proper help at the age of 15 he still could’ve turned into a decent adult. Now he’s forever ruined. 

Feeling awful for the M kids. The oldest two likely remember the first time dad went away for a bit and they’ll definitely remember this. I do hope they all get proper help. So sad that number 7 isn’t even born yet and she’s about to be born into quite the mess. 

Anna really has no more excuses. She has non fundie siblings who have offered help and I’m sure they still will. She needs to get out now. 

Next story I’m about to tell is about CSA to someone close to me so trigger warning. (Im on my phone so I’m hoping I’ve hid it correctly)
 

Spoiler

One of my best friends younger sisters was being molested by their step father. The mother caught him on a Saturday afternoon when he thought she would still be at work. She immediately kicked his ass out and called the police, divorced him ASAP. Got her daughter checked out by medical examiners and she’s been going to therapy. She also asked her even younger daughter if anything happened to her but luckily she ended up not being affected. 
And that’s what you do Anna. Cut him out and leave ASAP. 

 

[Mom to Nell]

7 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Just FYI- There are three admins - Curious, Destiny and Buffy- they do all the tech stuff and all the hard stuff; sister moms are just mods who can help out admin in some limited ways. Me, Coconut Flan and a couple others got sucked by Curious because we post too much :p. Helpmeets are moderators and basically the same as sister moms who did not get suckered by Curious!

Song title? Band name? 

[blackkatya]

3 minutes ago, Not that josh's mom said:

Didn't the court info say Josh couldn't have "unsupervised" contact with children? Not that he couldn't have any contact? So he an still be around children if other adults are present?

I'm guessing this is to allow for some sort of court-supervised visitation with the M's.

[seraaa]

19 minutes ago, WiseGirl said:

I think it was @AussieKrissy who said she works with pedophiles. The chances of Turd ever recovering are slim. From Harvard Health Publishing

"Like other sexual orientations, pedophilia is unlikely to change. The goal of treatment, therefore, is to prevent someone from acting on pedophile urges — either by decreasing sexual arousal around children or increasing the ability to manage that arousal. But neither is as effective for reducing harm as preventing access to children, or providing close supervision."

https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/pessimism-about-pedophilia

Turd should never be allowed near any of his children, nieces, nephews, any children ever.

Part of the tragedy of this whole situation is that it truly didn't have to end like this. Josh (and his parents!!) could have dealt with this head on, and if they had maybe he wouldn't be going to prison.

Shame, minimisation and secrecy lead to more pain.

Edited May 2, 2021 by seraaa

[Howl]

2 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

Stay in jail, Josh, you know it makes sense.

Yup, my thinking exactly.  His trial is set for early July, I think.  He can easily cool his heels in the slammer for a few months, or take the plea deal and start serving his time and save a lot on lawyer's fees.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

11 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

I did comment in another thread pre Josh’s arrest that I have always assumed that baby voice was for public consumption. When the cameras aren’t rolling I bet she barks like a sergeant major.

That's why she was so pissed when Derek had video of her, back when he went to the big house, yelling ...she didn't know a camera was on so she wasn't keeping sweet.

[nokidsmom]

12 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

However I do not see why any of the siblings should make any accommodations for Josh. It would meant they could have little or no contact with the children in their family and they will be known as the people with a CSE offender in their house.

As much as the family will want to circle the wagons, this is not the time to keep it "all in the family".    Josh should be not anywhere near his siblings and his married siblings with their own families actually have a duty not to let their kids anywhere near their uncle.

ETA: This obviously is something that JB and J'chelle will not understand given their own inability to protect their own kids from a molester, but they might find out it's a different deal when it comes to their grandkids. 

Edited May 2, 2021 by nokidsmom

[Idlewild]

@seraaa I’m in the UK too & have been a criminal lawyer for over 30 years (no longer practising but now involved in legal guidance etc). You are absolutely right - rehabilitation and tackling the cause of offending is so important - but it’s never a vote winner as it involves spending money and there’s always ‘better’ things to spend on.

The simple truth is that for many types of offending, deprivation is the key factor- lack of education, employment and opportunities. 
Tony Blair was scorned for his ‘tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime’ pitch - but he was the only one who came close to understanding the problem. In England and Wales the Misuse of Drugs Act will be 50 years old next year. We are no closer to winning the ‘war on drugs ‘ than we were in 1972. Radical change of approach is needed.

Incidentally, if you haven’t already you might want to look at the work of Timpsons  who provide employment opportunities for ex offenders- they do some great work.

Sorry for the UK diversion, back to Josh now! 

[Howl]

2 minutes ago, seraaa said:

Part of the tragedy of this whole situation is that it truly didn't have to end like this. Josh (and his parents!!) could have dealt with this head on, and if they had maybe he wouldn't be going to prison.

It's all of the tragedy, actually and why Gothardism and other Xtian rehab/Xtian counseling based on sin/redemption models are useless and can have disastrous outcomes like this.  

Josh needed an intense intervention w/ science-based counseling with a secular psychiatrist/credentialed psychologist as a teen and then as an adult, and he didn't get it.  Hopefully, he'll get some therapy/re-hab in prison.