[CW: Child Sex Abuse] Josh&Anna 27:How Many Robocalls Did Michelle Make to Warn People about Her Son

[ladyicantxplain]

24 minutes ago, The Baby Humanist said:

I totally agree. Moreover, I read yesterday that if anything, her own upbringing was even more rigid than that of the Duggars, and that she literally did not know the mechanics of sex at all before the wedding night.

Regarding the sexual relationship of Josh and Anna:  

Having been in one of these cults, and subsequently pastoring women OUT of said cults, I can say: these women were raised to literally BE children. Many of the women who are quiver full also subscribe to that awful theology in the book called Fascinating Womanhood, where women are TOLD to "become childlike" so that they will amuse their own husbands!  (Tying little pink satin bows in their hair, stomping their feet like angry little girls when he does something they do not like, etc. ad nauseam.)

It should come as ZERO surprise that Josh was attracted to children. Particularly little girls, though I concur with others who have said that the boys should all receive counseling and be interviewed by experts in trauma as well.

Women in the cults who are virgins and have sex with these men get treated like children in bed, too. I know from listening to dozens of them. Their pervert husbands who were brainwashed into thinking of women as "little girls" to be mocked and dominated ask them to wear little girl's clothing/undergarments and act like little girls and talk like little girls during sex.

Yes, I know some of this can be regular "kink" between people who do not have pedophilic illnesses in their minds, but I have seen this time and again in these cult survivors.  It is a correlation worth mentioning, beyond all the others that have already been discussed here.

I burned my copy of Fascinating Womanhood and decided to be a GROWN ASS WOMAN - and my life is infinitely better. I can only pray that Anna has an eye-opening from all of this and hope for the same for her.  Maybe she can set other women free from these cults...

[Idlewild]

12 minutes ago, Lgirlrocks said:

If porn is considered cheating (in their circles. I don’t consider it cheating) and Josh has been caught cheating before (sleeping with other women) she could divorce him and be biblically sound in doing so. Cheating is the one thing, according to the Bible, that makes divorce okay. 

Matthew 5:32

English Standard Version

32 (A)But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and (B)whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

I’m sure Anna has been told that multiple times. She didn’t want a divorce. If anything she loved the added attention of the humpers praising her for being a ‘strong godly wife who has put her marriage before her selfish desires’ and all the rest of the BS. The reality is of course she put fame and money above her children’s safety. And she probably always will.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Idlewild

[formergothardite]

36 minutes ago, Unicorn28 said:

Pa Keller would be a good person for third party because of his ministry and he could come to Arkansas and stay in one of JB empty houses with Josh. He would be close to Anna to talk with her and he would be honest with Josh about prison life and wouldn't let him break any rules. 

The thing I wonder about is what consequences is there on the third party person if they allow Josh to break the rules? Will they face prison time? 

I really hope not Pa Keller. His prison ministry is just teaching IBLP  and the last thing Josh needs is to live with someone filling his head with more of Gothard’s creepy teachings. 

[FunDieDumDum]

Question to anyone more familiar with US federal law than I am (which is to say, not at all): if Josh is found guilty on the two counts he’s being charged with, could the judge order at least an evaluation of his kids who are old enough to be interviewed, to attempt to determine if any actual sexual abuse has occurred? Or is that not allowed even with a conviction on a charge that strongly indicates abuse is a possibility?

[nelliebelle1197]

32 minutes ago, Cheetah said:

Confused by the navigation... why is this thread in SOTDRT rather than in the Quiverfull of Duggars?  For a minute I thought there were 2 threads on the current Josh situation.  (Not that it matters to me but was just curious).

My fault. I was merging posts and did it backwards because honestly, we don't have to do it very often since most of our folks know the lay of the land.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, FunDieDumDum said:

Question to anyone more familiar with US federal law than I am (which is to say, not at all): if Josh is found guilty on the two counts he’s being charged with, could the judge order at least an evaluation of his kids who are old enough to be interviewed, to attempt to determine if any actual sexual abuse has occurred? Or is that not allowed even with a conviction on a charge that strongly indicates abuse is a possibility?

They should be doing it now since the charges preclude him being alone with a minor....if they are going to try to mitigate future harm with that they need to investigate if it's already occurred.

I hope this is being handled sensitively already.  I also hope they respect the privacy of the kids which means we shouldn't know the results of the evaluations.  And this should be all kids on the compound, not just his.

They should also be interviewing every adult in regards to anything they may have seen, sometimes weirdness is obvious in retrospect.  

[nelliebelle1197]

10 minutes ago, FunDieDumDum said:

Question to anyone more familiar with US federal law than I am (which is to say, not at all): if Josh is found guilty on the two counts he’s being charged with, could the judge order at least an evaluation of his kids who are old enough to be interviewed, to attempt to determine if any actual sexual abuse has occurred? Or is that not allowed even with a conviction on a charge that strongly indicates abuse is a possibility?

They will be interviewed and evaluated regardless, I believe. @SnarkyLawyer was a prosecutor; can you verify?

ETA: Jinx, sort of, @HerNameIsBuffy!!

Edited May 2, 2021 by nelliebelle1197

[nokidsmom]

Quote

I've been thinking much the same thing since hearing about the federal charges against Josh.  He's facing a life out from underneath JB's control and away from responsibility for Anna & the kids.  It's a hell of a way to get out of a life he doesn't appear to want, but at some level, he may be feeling relieved.

Quoting @Drala from the last thread.   Since hearing of Joshley's arrest and the charges, I wonder how on earth he could manage to make life even worse for himself.   Granted, his reputation and employability was completely shot to hell after the Joshgates 1.0/2.0 and while I am not surprised at a Joshgate 3.0 happening, though I always thought it would likely be financial shenanigans or maybe cheating again.  

That he's sunk even deeper to the point that his life is basically over at 33, makes me wonder if he didn't think he had anything more to lose.   He had a chance to forge a life beyond his dad's control (even if it was the FRC) and he blew it.   He's unemployable by anyone except his dad and even dad knows now he can't trust him at all.   He's married to a wife who stuck by him but continues to have kids with him, kids he can't support, and possibly doesn't want. 

His reputation is in tatters, his family is pissed off at him no matter what they say and he's been forced to live among same family because his life choices landed him there with no escape (perhaps because he couldn't be bothered to help himself but that's another discussion).  So I wonder if he didn't think he could suffer any worse consequences for whatever reason: entitlement, arrogance, suffered enough, etc. than what he has. Of course he is wrong, because it's possible even after you think you have lost everything, there still can be more to lose.   He's walking proof of that.

 

 

[seraaa]

24 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

And lest we forget the Duggars threw an engagement party for Tabitha and her rapist fiancé, knowing full well of his past. The entire family were there ( including Jill and Derek). They do seem to have the misfortune of knowing an awful lot of sexually violent people.

Incidentally, the rapist fiancé was given a job as a security guard at Crown College and they were fully aware of his past. That’s right, on a campus of young people away from home for the first time.

On the one hand, I support rehabilitation for people who have done terrible things.

On the other hand, it seems obvious to me that "rehabilitiation" shouldn't just mean everything going back to how it was before, or sweeping what happened under the carpet, or failing to properly compenste or otherwise pay restitution to victims. Being restricted from certain activities or doing them under supervision seems like a reasonable consequence. 

Edited May 2, 2021 by seraaa

[Chickenbutt]

I have no idea what the law is regarding the children, but my hope is that a Guardian Ad Litem will be assigned for all the M's, and possibly the minor Duggar kids. The GAL would then set up interviews, exams if necessary, etc. I truly don't know if that will happen tho. If my grand kids got assigned a GAL during a routine divorce and custody hearing, you would think that in a case this serious the courts would assign someone to look out for the kids interest and only the kids interest. We can only hope. 

[eye_browz]

I bet Anna will write a book in exchange for a substantial amount of money that would help support her and the kids. 

[FunDieDumDum]

2 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

They should be doing it now since the charges preclude him being alone with a minor....if they are going to try to mitigate future harm with that they need to investigate if it's already occurred.

I hope this is being handled sensitively already.  I also hope they respect the privacy of the kids which means we shouldn't know the results of the evaluations.  And this should be all kids on the compound, not just his.

They should also be interviewing every adult in regards to anything they may have seen, sometimes weirdness is obvious in retrospect.  

Thank you for clarifying! I hope they are doing everything you’ve just said, including protecting the kids’ privacy. I frankly do not wish to know any details ever, I just want to see someone making sure those children are protected, and get help if they need it.

[TuringMachine]

1 minute ago, seraaa said:

On the one hand, I support rehabilitation for people who have done terrible things.

It the other hand, it seems obvious to me that "rehabilitiation" shouldn't just mean everything going back to how it was before, or sweeping what happened under the carpet, or failing to properly compenste or otherwise pay restitution to victims. Being restricted from certain activities or doing them under supervision seems like a reasonable consequence. 

I do too but you can’t be rehabilitated if you don’t think you did anything wrong. And in Tabitha’s husbands case, his “apology” was basically: well she was a stripper so no big deal. 

[nelliebelle1197]

1 minute ago, TuringMachine said:

I do too but you can’t be rehabilitated if you don’t think you did anything wrong. And in Tabitha’s husbands case, his “apology” was basically: well she was a stripper so no big deal. 

Are you f'ing joking? THAT IS AWFUL! And yes, I am yelling. I never heard that part of it and I am horrified beyond words.

[ven]

I am totally not surprised, what is poor anna to do? Work at burger king at minimum wage and bring up those kids alone ? Ofcourse not , she will be usurped by jim bob and meech and will take jana's place to care for the home and eventually" elderly " parents in law. They owe her life long roof above her head and money to feed those kids by marrying her to that creepo and they will do so if necessary. These people are millionaires, they can sweat a good live in  housekeeper. 

[nelliebelle1197]

Just now, ven said:

I am totally not surprised, what is poor anna to do? Work at burger king at minimum wage and bring up those kids alone ? Ofcourse not , she will be usurped by jim bob and meech and will take jana's place to care for the home and eventually" elderly " parents in law. They owe her life long roof above her head and money to feed those kids by marrying her to that creepo and they will do so if necessary. These people are millionaires, they can sweat a good live in  housekeeper. 

Poor Anna? Anna's brother offered her help to get out three kids ago, publicly and privately. 

[seraaa]

9 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

I do too but you can’t be rehabilitated if you don’t think you did anything wrong. And in Tabitha’s husbands case, his “apology” was basically: well she was a stripper so no big deal. 

Absolutely! That's not rehabilitation. It's barely an apology. Nothing about that statement says he understands or acknowledges the hurt he caused.

If they won't engage with a restitution process people don't need to treat them as rehabilitated imo. Take whatever precautions deemed necessary, because this isn't a person who has worked to regain trust or make proper amends.

It probably helps, also, if rehabilitation actually helps mend relationships with others and tackles internal issues. Jim Bob and Michelle really thought shaving Josh's head and assigning him manual labour would solve the issues around his sexuality?? Make it make sense.

Edited May 2, 2021 by seraaa

[ven]

2 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Poor Anna? Anna's brother offered her help to get out three kids ago, publicly and privately. 

Well that would imply she would have to pull her own weight and actually work for a living besides caring for 3 kids, nah this is a way better option for her. 

[Howl]

31 minutes ago, ladyicantxplain said:

I can say: these women were raised to literally BE children. Many of the women who are quiver full also subscribe to that awful theology in the book called Fascinating Womanhood, where women are TOLD to "become childlike"

Mrs. Pecan Thief,  Anna's sister, has this breathy, child-like presentation. I've never seen a video with audio of Anna or Esther (Mrs. The World's Worst Missionary).  Do they have this affected way of speaking as well?

Edited May 2, 2021 by Howl

[nokidsmom]

3 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Poor Anna? Anna's brother offered her help to get out three kids ago, publicly and privately. 

Mr. No has been just as interested in the discussions here as I am.  In discussing Anna, I mentioned her brother offered help years ago when Joshley screwed up but Anna stayed and lived with her in-laws.  He as no illusions that Anna will do the same here if for no other reason she has no chance of supporting 7 kids and she is used to a certain life even if it was in a renovated warehouse. 

[JessaBlessa]

That explains Michelle's way of speaking.

[ven]

2 minutes ago, Howl said:

Mrs. Pecan Thief,  Anna's sister, has this breathy, child-like presentation. I've never seen a video with audio of Anna or Esther (Mrs. The World's Worst Missionary).  Do they have this affected way of speaking as well?

Rumor goes she has learning disabilities stemming from birth  

[SnarkyLawyer]

4 minutes ago, FunDieDumDum said:

Question to anyone more familiar with US federal law than I am (which is to say, not at all): if Josh is found guilty on the two counts he’s being charged with, could the judge order at least an evaluation of his kids who are old enough to be interviewed, to attempt to determine if any actual sexual abuse has occurred? Or is that not allowed even with a conviction on a charge that strongly indicates abuse is a 

This is from a manual for law enforcement in investigating child abuse, this page specifically for investigating sexual abuse, and interviewing the non-offending spouse, and children. We have a federal statute against child abuse called, the Child Abuse Prevention Act. I'm quite certain federal investigators are already in the process of interviewing the family, or have referred it out to state CPS. 

 

Btw, one of the things they try and find out is whether the perpetrator asks the non-offending spouse to act like children themselves, wear juvenile clothing, or use a child-like voice. Given what a poster above said about pastoring women out of ATI, and the stories they told about their husbands asking them to behave like children, I thought this was interesting. 

16 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

They will be interviewed and evaluated regardless, I believe. @SnarkyLawyer was a prosecutor; can you verify?

ETA: Jinx, sort of, @HerNameIsBuffy!!

Just did. ?

[nelliebelle1197]

11 minutes ago, seraaa said:

Absolutely! That's not rehabilitation. It's barely an apology. Nothing about that statement says he understands or acknowledges the hurt he caused.

If they won't engage with the restitution process, people don't need to treat them as rehabilitated imo. Take whatever precautions deemed necessary, because this isn't a person who has worked to regain trust or make proper amends.

Are you American?  I would love it if we focused more on rehabilitation and restitution rather than punishment for so many crimes. Since our criminal justice system is overwhelmingly comprised of poor people and poor people of color, the generations of unconscious and conscious bias has caused the powers that be in most cases to write off criminals and the incarcerated, leaving them without a real opportunity to rehabilitate. I would much prefer people with mental illness, even if they are violent criminals, to be housed in appropriate treatment facilities where even if they never get out they get the treatments they need and the psychiatric community can learn from them for the future.  And lower level criminals should get rehabilitation and job skills with the ability/opportunity to work and have a decent place to live so they can try again when they get out. I don't know how it would work and it is likely a pipe dream, but I think most people can be rehabilitated if given the education, confidence, skills, tools and encouragement to succeed.

Edited May 2, 2021 by nelliebelle1197

[formergothardite]

2 minutes ago, ven said:

I am totally not surprised, what is poor anna to do? Work at burger king at minimum wage and bring up those kids alone ? Ofcourse not , she will be usurped by jim bob and meech and will take jana's place to care for the home and eventually" elderly " parents in law. They owe her life long roof above her head and money to feed those kids by marrying her to that creepo and they will do so if necessary. These people are millionaires, they can sweat a good live in  housekeeper. 

Maybe she shouldn’t have spent all these years supporting politics that want to keep the minimum wage low. She could get vouchers for child care, put the older kids in public school and sign up for every government program she qualifies for. 
 

Even Beall sucked it up and got a job when her husband brought down their empire with sexual assault. Anna can leave, it will be hard but she has options. She has a teaching degree that means a Christian private school would probably hire her. 
 

Anna also has the option to make a ton of money spilling the beans on the Duggars or getting Jim Bob to give her a lump sum to keep quiet.