Joe & Kendra 16: Praise - ing Their Brooklyn All the Day Long!

[Travelfan]

I had never actually thought about it until now but all of my grandparents/parents came from small families.  I wonder if they were considered oddities for back in their time. My grandparents were all born between 1912 and 1925. One grandpa just had himself and a brother 10 years older. One grandma was an only child. The other grandpa had 2 older siblings (in their 20s) and he was adopted. A year later his parents also adopted a little girl. Family lore has it that he and the little girl were actually both children of his older sister who was gone for awhile around this time. But still his parents only had 2 biological kids and then adopted 2 more 20+ years later. Other grandma was one of 6 so kind of largish. My parents born in the early 1950s were also in small families. My mom has one sibling and my dad has 2. Given the times being in the early 1900s I’m kinda surprised that out of 4 grandparents only 1 was in a largish (6 kids) family.  
 

[fundieundies]

15 hours ago, Vivi_music said:

French Canadians had the reputation of having big families. Of course, they were Catholic, but on top of that, the French Canadian clergy strongly encouraged high fertility. It was seen as a way to ensure survival of the French culture in North America. Demographers and historians have called it the ''La Revanche du berceau (French for "the revenge of the cradle"). The implication was that it would not be possible to discriminate against francophones if they remained numerous.

I wanted to look up the average children for French-Canadian women in the 19th century. Quickly googled demographic article about Québec and French-Canada. Took me 2 minutes online, and found tons of articles demystifying mega-families. Here is an extcerpt under the spoiler:

  Hide contents

Quote from HENRIPIN, Jacques, ''Trois siècle de « grosses familles »'', 1994. https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/cd/1994-n39-cd1042227/8656ac.pdf

Translated loosely by me.

It is often thought that French Canadian families once had twelve or more children. This is a myth. Like all myths, this one contains a part of truth: several families reached these numbers, but the average was lower, even for families who had "as many as necessary", i.e. whose mother survived at least until the end of her fertile slice of life, i.e. 50 years. These families, which can be called "complete", had eight or nine children on average. This was not the case for all, far from i. During these two and a half centuries (and even afterwards), death took many parents, especially mothers, before they had time to bring into the world all the children that "God would have sent them". Death played an important role in the size of families. Note that by ''family'', we mean a couple and their children, excluding any new additions from a remarriage.

All in all, the average size of families probably approached seven children; say eight and a half for complete families; five or six for those whose life has been interrupted broken by the death of one of the spouses

 

I think this is pretty interesting. It seems that naturally, women had 7 or 8 children during their whole fertile life (from the time they were married until 50 years old according to that author). 7 or 8 kids until you reach 50, that's even less than one child a year or every two years.

Megafamilies of course did exist. My grandmother was the last of 18! A very fertile woman, that has a good enough constitution to withstand that many pregnancies and starting young, I'm sure it happened. But it was a fluke. QFs are imagining an idealic and fake version of the past, warped by with their conservative lenses.

This was a super interesting read! My grandfather was #13 of 16 in a French Canadian Catholic family. Digging into his side of the family during a high school genealogy project is actually what got me into the Duggars. Family dynamics in mega-families really interest me. My dad (my grandfather's son) didn't know most of his cousins, however his grandmother doted on him & his siblings because they were among the last few grandkids to be born.  

[anjulibai]

My husband's father's family is French Canadian - a lot from Montreal. His family line can be traced back to the 1600s. There were a lot of them! I imagine he's related to half of Quebec at this point. 

[just_ordinary]

4 hours ago, Cam said:

Strongly disagree that my comments are attributed to being some kind of myth. If anything, the idea of men caring that women have orgasms in the 16th century seems more mythical. There’s way too many men and women today who still ain’t quite sure where the clitoris is located and think the way to get a woman to orgasm is penis in vagina. 
 

I didn’t use the word pure, either. Back in those days, sex was considered something tolerated by women, it was something disgusting that men did, women did not talk about it, and women only put up with it because society told them the only desire they were allowed to have was to have children/be a mother.

There is a much bigger difference between what we know of the upper classes and the lower classes though. Women on farms or working did definitely know. And modesty standards in rural areas were much laxer, not the least due to practical reasons. We just have way less sources about them, because there are no rule books or letters or self descriptions available. We have paintings (Not self painted), stuff written about them (not by them) and so on.

The family structure and actual enforcement of gender roles also worked very differently if you need your wife to work alongside you instead of looking pretty and bearing sons.

The upper class Victorian‘s might have been big in looking extra pure and such but not everything was as it seems.

[SassyPants]

7 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

We have to remember diaphragms were a thing even in the first half of the 20th century. However I think you had to talk your doctor into prescribing one. I had a great aunt with a heart condition who did get married. Her doctors told her she was not allowed to have children. It would kill her. I imagine the doctor very willingly gave her a diaphragm because she was never pregnant although happily married for many years. But I don’t think doctors gave them to just anyone. You probably had to be married and a compelling reason to get your doctor to prescribe one. Like for health reasons. 

That was BC method of choice for many years!

[QuiverFullofBooks]

9 hours ago, medimus said:

France's Medaille de la famille Française bronze for 4-5, silver for 6-7 and gold for 8 or more children 'raised with dignity'

Madame Rodrigues? Sûrement pas! Elle n'a aucune dignité!

[Sweetpickle]

I’m really enjoying this conversation. Had we continued our production “rate” we would have had a lot of kids. Breast feeding was not birth control for us. We had five kids in a little under seven years. And we did not have a ton of ahem sweet fellowship. I came from a family of four and he had five so we knew we wanted our kids to have siblings. By child five I was done and was tired of being pregnant every other year so we quit. We love our kids and miss those crazy years but I’m so thankful I had the ability to quit. And thankful my husband valued my opinion and Health (physical and mental) and left that decision up to me. I hope that Kendra and Joe can do that too.

[louisa05]

On 3/29/2022 at 7:42 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

None of my great grandparents in my family had double digits children. Of my 4 sets of great grandparents, one couple had 2, one couple had 4, one couple had 5 and one couple had 6. I really don’t remember my mom talking about anyone in the family history having a huge amount of children. I know 8 is considered quite big because my great grandmother’s brother had 8 and everyone was like, “wow that’s a lot.” I will say my entire family is Protestant not Catholic. I don’t know if that makes a difference. 

My Protestant great grandparents had 9 (2 died in childhood —toddler from whooping cough, 12 year old from burst appendix. Their father died when mother was 33-probably would have been more otherwise) and 10. My Catholic great grandparents had 4 (+2 stillborn) and 3.  
Never thought about the irony of that until just now. But maybe it didn’t make as much difference as people think. 

[Bastet]

The history of Catholic attitude toward birth control is interesting. The doctor who invented the pill was Catholic, and he assumed that the church would approve of a non-barrier method. Pope Paul VI dragged his heals on delivering an ex cathedra (determinative) ruling. He appointed a committee with a mix of laity and clergy; they voted to approve. He then appointed a committee with just clergy who delivered the verdict that I guess he actually preferred. 
  Meanwhile, the pill was out there and women sought the advice of their parish priests. Unlike clergy further up in the hierarchy, they often understood a little of the true cost of constant childbearing and huge families. They sometimes recommended that women pray and use their best judgment. By the time Pope Paul issued the birth control encyclical, many Catholic women had been taking the pill in good conscience for years. The laity left the church in droves. (There are now as many ex-Catholics as there are Catholics.)

Edited March 30, 2022 by Bastet

[zee_four]

On 3/12/2021 at 9:38 AM, Mama Mia said:

I dislike the narrative that only very privileged women can isolate and rest following the birth of a child. Throughout almost every culture, throughout history, the norm has been for women and newborns to recuperate, together, for roughly six weeks. That takes varying forms, but generally involves support from other women in the family in caring for older children, providing food, etc. with extremely minimal and gradually increasing exertion from the mother. Myths of mothers giving birth then happily being back gathering plants are largely that - myths - The exceptions to this have mostly been in societies that are based on feudalism or slavery, where women who were seen as completely expendable were not able to rest. And our current modern culture where some parts seem to value an early return to work as heroic or soldiering on.  I’m all for women doing what they want to feel better after birth - but the idea we should “back to normal” immediately after making an entire human is harmful.

Given that- I recall after my 1st baby, with a rough c-section and miserable recovery - I was still very anxious to be out showing off my pretty little newborn. I remember walking the mall, a couple weeks after, leaking breasts, agonizing incision and all, - pushing her in a stroller. Maybe Kendra, who seems to have easy births, felt up to a long ride,  with a pushed back seat, napping, and then showing off the baby and visiting for a bit. 

I agree it the people who push that narrative who also can rest now a days too if that makes sense 

 

I had to be back at work 2 weeks after giving birth because I was a server with no health insurance and my worthless ex was a bartender with no health insurance. I had Medicaid but that didn't pay rent or bills and we really needed both of us working for that.

It sucked. My coworkers were awesome in helping with sidewalk and stuff but 6-9 hours of being on your feet running around carrying heavy trays is just that. It was vital I return to work as soon as possible and I worked up I gave birth. I luckily never got huge and am very tall 6' 3" which helped that but that made work just as miserable too.

The other girls who were pregnant or post birth always got helped out by most of the girls. Unfortunately that was a small community and mostly Latina, there's a lot of well off haoles in the 20s guys and girls who work the service industry in ski towns but they don't need to and get pregnant once they've gotten different jobs and married or left town. It was these really privileged selfish coworkers that were the worst. Luke I usually got first cut after the rush for awhile and there was this one bro brah and big city princess that always whined it wasnt fair and all she did was go to the bar next door and start drinking (which is what most people did myself included befire I was pregnant but its not like she had a 2nd job or kids waiting at home). One of the managers was her roommate and she always let the girl off before me and she would get so smug about it. All of the cooks and busboy hated her for it though and made her life harder and would just tell her they couldn't speak English when she'd complain and wink at me.

That gets to the other point, it seems like more privileged women push that narrative but then blame low income women ourselves for "getting knocked up" without having a good paying job with great insurance or some other material security that they don't realize most of us will never achieve either (for reasons that are also solely "our fault")

All cultures understand that its best for women to rest and take care of their babies entirely for a period of time after birth. Its just that many minorities and other impoverished women can't. Our communities try to support us as best as they can but that  still leaves the financial necessity of returning to work ASAP. I'm still more fortunate than many because I get paid at least minimum wage and am a US citizen. They take far worse advantage of the poor wahine who are undocumented or in any other way legally vulnerable an as its messed up.

But then so many the well off women who have the privilege push the narrative of women springing right back up after birth that they never truly will experience, doing manual labor immediately following birth, not understanding that its economic deprivation that forces this and the need to survive not something that naturally manifests. Its frustrating.

Mahalo everyone for sharing your post birth experiences. Everyone is valid and legitimate, you're all rockstars!

[GuineaPigCourtship]

When I was pregnant, my boss asked if I wanted "the full 6 weeks" postpartum.  I told her I wanted 12 and I got it because it's hard to replace doctors these days in my field.  I also pumped for a year at work so they had to work out official schedule/rules for that.  I'm glad I blazed a pathway because the newest doctor is pregnant now and due this summer and she had no issue getting the full 12 weeks approved and they have an area that can be used as a private lactation room should she end up pumping, too.

We had spend a few years building up a nest egg for maternity leave so we didn't have to worry, but now CT has paid maternity leave up to 12 weeks that started in January of this year.  THAT was a tax I didn't mind seeing on my forms this year because even if I don't get to use it, there are a lot of women who deserve the benefit and need it a lot more than we did.

[Angelface]

Do we have any real insider confirmation that Kendra is pregnant? Is it just speculation based off the blurry wedding video?

[QuiverFullofBooks]

2 hours ago, Angelface said:

Do we have any real insider confirmation that Kendra is pregnant? Is it just speculation based off the blurry wedding video?

No, there hasn’t been any confirmation. Did you see the screenshot? It’s a little dark, but she’s clearly very pregnant. She was also holding a child, so you could tell that it wasn’t just the cut of her dress.

[neurogirl]

I've seen the great drop-off in offspring numbers in my genealogical research as well. My ancestors were largely Midwest farmers. For the great-grandparents (born around 1900) that I have data on, they were one of 2, 3, 10, 10, 15, and 15 kids, with the generations back also have double-digit number of children in many cases. The difference started in that all or all-but-one of those 10-15 kids now survived into their old age. My grandparents were born in the 30s and all came from families of 3-5 kids. In one interesting family, a mom and dad who were each one of 15 had 5 children spaced every 2-3 years (throughout the 1930s) then stopped. In both generations the wife was married between 20-23. Clearly "something" had been figured out in those 20 years!

Edited March 31, 2022 by neurogirl

[louisa05]

47 minutes ago, neurogirl said:

I've seen the great drop-off in offspring numbers in my genealogical research as well. My ancestors were largely Midwest farmers. For the great-grandparents (born around 1900) that I have data on, they were one of 2, 3, 10, 10, 15, and 15 kids, with the generations back also have double-digit number of children in many cases. The difference started in that all or all-but-one of those 10-15 kids now survived into their old age. My grandparents were born in the 30s and all came from families of 3-5 kids. In one interesting family, a mom and dad who were each one of 15 had 5 children spaced every 2-3 years (throughout the 1930s) then stopped. In both generations the wife was married between 20-23. Clearly "something" had been figured out in those 20 years!

Birth rates dropped in the 30s across all demographics due to the Depression.  Marriage rates dropped as well. 

[Sullie06]

I love genealogy.

So my Paternal Grandfather was 2nd youngest of 7. I'm honestly not sure what my Great Grandfather did for a living as he passed away 11 years before I was born. My Grandmother had 7 children between 1913 and 1931. They all lived into adulthood. The youngest passed away at 68, and there is one sibling still alive who will be 91 this year. My Grandfather passed away at 89.

My Paternal Grandmother is the 2nd youngest of 9. They had one child who passed away in infancy. I believe my Grandmother said he was 2 months maybe. My Great Grandfather was a watch maker, they had immigrated from Italy when my Great Grandmother was pregnant with their oldest. They had 8 children between 1914 and 1936. My grandmother is the only living sibling at soon to be 92. They all lived to be between 82-103

My Grandparents only had two children. My father and his brother. 

My Maternal Grandfather was the oldest of two. He was born in Denmark and they immigrated after his father died when he was a teenager. I don't know much about his side of the family as he passed when I was 2. I believe his sister passed prior to that. My grandfather passed at 76.

My Maternal Grandmother was one of 3 girls. They were born between 1915-1919 and lived to between 71-88 years old. 

My grandparents were married and had 3 children between 1953-1957. My grandmother was my Grandfather's second wife so he had two young children already when they married for a total of 5 in the household. 

My parents had 4 children, the oldest died shortly after birth. My sister and I both have two children and my brother has none. 

[Satan'sFortress]

17 hours ago, Bastet said:

The history of Catholic attitude toward birth control is interesting. The doctor who invented the pill was Catholic, and he assumed that the church would approve of a non-barrier method. Pope Paul VI dragged his heals on delivering an ex cathedra (determinative) ruling. He appointed a committee with a mix of laity and clergy; they voted to approve. He then appointed a committee with just clergy who delivered the verdict that I guess he actually preferred. 
  Meanwhile, the pill was out there and women sought the advice of their parish priests. Unlike clergy further up in the hierarchy, they often understood a little of the true cost of constant childbearing and huge families. They sometimes recommended that women pray and use their best judgment. By the time Pope Paul issued the birth control encyclical, many Catholic women had been taking the pill in good conscience for years. The laity left the church in droves. (There are now as many ex-Catholics as there are Catholics.)

That is interesting---I didn't know that.  I've told this story here before, but after having 4 kids in 4 years, my Catholic mother was disallowed BCP from her catholic OB.  By the time she found another OB, she was pregnant with #5 (me). 

 

[Cam]

I worry that Joe’s primary concern and goal is to prove his male virility by keeping his wife perpetually pregnant. Is he capable at all of having a responsible, adult thought about his wife and how so many pregnancies in a short period of time might not be the best thing for her body? Or is it all about him? 
 

I cannot get over how so very many adults allow other people, such as religious leaders, to tell them how to live their lives. It baffles me. When I wanted birth control, I went and got it. Outside of a work environment, I dress how I want. My husband and I make our own choices and decisions. We may seek advice from others but not to the point where we lose our autonomy. I mean, that’s what being an adult is.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Cam

[SorenaJ]

I'm curious what they did in the 30s and onwards to have fewer children, until the pill came along in the 60s. How did they control their family size? 

[Idlewild]

The problem with Joe is he is steeped in his parents beliefs- remember he was the one that talked Joy round when she had doubts.

So no, he doesn’t question their behaviour and assumes because it all worked out well for JB &M, it will for them too.

He’s seen how the Caldwells can’t manage and that hasn’t wobbled his head, so unfortunately he’ll just continue until something stops them.

[postscript]

4 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

I'm curious what they did in the 30s and onwards to have fewer children, until the pill came along in the 60s. How did they control their family size? 

My working-class, immigrant grandparents married in the late 20s and had 6 children over a 15-year period. The first three came close together, followed by a multi-year gap. Then two more came close together, followed by another multi-year gap, followed by one straggler. They were very religious and had very little money. The family stories are (A) that my grandmother had at least one miscarriage during the gaps, or (B) that they refrained from sleeping together at times to keep their family size manageable, especially during the mid-30s. I suspect both stories are true. 

[HeartsAFundie]

9 hours ago, Idlewild said:

The problem with Joe is he is steeped in his parents beliefs- remember he was the one that talked Joy round when she had doubts.

So no, he doesn’t question their behaviour and assumes because it all worked out well for JB &M, it will for them too.

He’s seen how the Caldwells can’t manage and that hasn’t wobbled his head, so unfortunately he’ll just continue until something stops them.

I went on their blog to check it out and apparently Joe had some questions about his faith in his teenage years.  He states:

"Throughout my teenage years I had doubts about my standing before God. There were times when I would think, Maybe I’m not truly a Christian. Maybe I’m just going through the motions, and I’m not truly saved. But then, in pride, I would shake off those feelings, and resist that idea. What would others think of me? Everyone around me thinks I’m already a Christian. From the outside, no one could tell my inward struggle. I wasn’t rebellious or disrespectful. I looked like I had my life together and I was a “good kid.” But inwardly, I knew that I was lacking a real and personal relationship with Jesus Christ, a true hunger for His word, a brokenness over sin, and a desire to see others come to know Him. "

Joe then states his turning point came when filling out an ALERT application in 2012 and an application question asked:  "Have you ever doubted your salvation?"  At that point he stopped filling out the application and went to Jim Bob and Michelle with his doubts and concerns.  They told Joe the Holy Spirit was working through him and he then realized how broken he was.  He prayed and repented his sins, gave Jesus his trust, faith and control, and was saved.

Based on this, it's no wonder Joe became the go-to person when a sibling started questioning their faith.  Sadly, Joe shows in the beginning of his testimony that he does have the makings of critical thinking skills.  Too bad they were prayed out of him.    

Edited April 1, 2022 by HeartsAFundie

[Idlewild]

@HeartsAFundie yes the parents did a number on their children- any questioning of not only their faith but the Duggar brand of faith crushed. They put more effort into that than any other aspect of parenting.

Joe attempted college (albeit Crown College) but it didn’t last. The Caldwells seem just as bad as the Duggars in their own way. 

[backyard sylph]

In a nutshell: You're made in the perfect image of God but you're born broken and need him to forgive you for that.

This makes me so tired.

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

17 hours ago, Cam said:

I worry that Joe’s primary concern and goal is to prove his male virility by keeping his wife perpetually pregnant. Is he capable at all of having a responsible, adult thought about his wife and how so many pregnancies in a short period of time might not be the best thing for her body? Or is it all about him? 
 

I cannot get over how so very many adults allow other people, such as religious leaders, to tell them how to live their lives. It baffles me. When I wanted birth control, I went and got it. Outside of a work environment, I dress how I want. My husband and I make our own choices and decisions. We may seek advice from others but not to the point where we lose our autonomy. I mean, that’s what being an adult is.

I think sometimes it is influenced by how they grew up. If you grew up in a controlling environment where you were not allowed to make your own decisions, you are primed for that to be your go to in adulthood. I’m guessing making decisions on your own is hard at first as an adult. And you feel less anxiety when a church leader tells you what to do. This way you don’t have to take full responsibility. You did what the preacher told you to do. If it doesn’t work out, that’s not your fault.