Joe & Kendra 16: Praise - ing Their Brooklyn All the Day Long!

[Cam]

7 hours ago, Nothing if not critical said:

 No clue how accurate this is but there's a scene in Downton Abbey where Lady Mary sends her lady's maid Anna to get her a diaphragm from the pharmacy, because only a married woman can get one. No prescription needed. That would be late 1920s/early 1930s, I think?

I love that you brought this up; I’d forgotten about it. First, let me say when I saw this episode,  I thought it might be a totally unrealistic storyline because I never thought someone like Mary had sex outside of marriage. I guess that’s my Catholic upbringing influencing my thoughts (no longer Catholic, btw).

Since I’m a big fan of this incredible TV series, I had to do a little research on your comments. And the subject matter is pretty accurate. Here’s what I found:

This storyline is from Season 5, episode 2. The year depicted is 1924.

Some additional interesting insight from the website “ As Seen on TV”:

Lady Mary is shown holding a book by Marie Stopes and mentions the author as she instructs Anna to run an errand on her behalf. Lady Mary sends her lady’s maid because it would be indecent for a woman of Lady Mary’s social stature to do herself—the implication is that Mary needs something pertaining to contraception. 

Marie Charlotte Carmichael Stopes (1880-1958) was a British author, scientist, and renowned activist for women’s rights and birth control. Her first book, “Married Love”, published in 1918, covered the topic of sex and family planning for married couples and was both controversial and influential. Stopes went on to write many additional titles on this topic. She also opened the 1st family planning clinic in Britain promoting the use of and provided patrons with access to contraception.

The wide success of her first book prompted fans to write to her with questions on the subject, so Stopes published “Wise Parenthood” as a follow-up in November 1918.

“Wise Parenthood” most likely was the book referenced on this episode. “Wise Parenthood” provides information about different options for birth control, including condoms, withdrawal, and the rhythm method. The book especially  recommends a rubber cervical cap with a quinine pessary, which was a smaller form of the modern diaphragm. In this episode, Mary wanted to obtain birth control to use during her liaisons with Tony Foyle, the Viscount Gillingham. While it was never explicitly shown, the rubber cervical cap was what likely was in the brown bag Anna brought Lady Mary from the pharmacy, as this was the method of birth control that Stopes most highly recommended in her book.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Cam

[Heidijoey]

I love that you brought this up; I’d forgotten about it. First, let me say when I saw this episode,  I thought it might be a totally unrealistic storyline because I never thought someone like Mary had sex outside of marriage. I guess that’s my Catholic upbringing influencing my thoughts (no longer Catholic, btw).
Since I’m a big fan of this incredible TV series, I had to do a little research on your comments. And the subject matter is pretty accurate. Here’s what I found:
This storyline is from Season 5, episode 2. The year depicted is 1924.

Some additional interesting insight from the website “ As Seen on TV”:
Lady Mary is shown holding a book by Marie Stopes and mentions the author as she instructs Anna to run an errand on her behalf. Lady Mary sends her lady’s maid because it would be indecent for a woman of Lady Mary’s social stature to do herself—the implication is that Mary needs something pertaining to contraception. 
Marie Charlotte Carmichael Stopes (1880-1958) was a British author, scientist, and renowned activist for women’s rights and birth control. Her first book, “Married Love”, published in 1918, covered the topic of sex and family planning for married couples and was both controversial and influential. Stopes went on to write many additional titles on this topic. She also opened the 1st family planning clinic in Britain promoting the use of and provided patrons with access to contraception.
The wide success of her first book prompted fans to write to her with questions on the subject, so Stopes published “Wise Parenthood” as a follow-up in November 1918.
“Wise Parenthood” most likely was the book referenced on this episode. “Wise Parenthood” provides information about different options for birth control, including condoms, withdrawal, and the rhythm method. The book especially  recommends a rubber cervical cap with a quinine pessary, which was a smaller form of the modern diaphragm. In this episode, Mary wanted to obtain birth control to use during her liaisons with Tony Foyle, the Viscount Gillingham. While it was never explicitly shown, the rubber cervical cap was what likely was in the brown bag Anna brought Lady Mary from the pharmacy, as this was the method of birth control that Stopes most highly recommended in her book.
 
 

And it caused all sorts of trouble for Anna and Mr. Bates

[Cam]

Yes, didn’t Mr. Bates think Anna secretly purchased the diaphragm for her own use?

I happened to see a clip of country superstar singer/songwriter Loretta Lynn this morning of her singing her hit “The Pill”. Some of you know the story surrounding the song; here’s a recap:

In 1948, Kentuckian Loretta Lynn got married at age 15, a month after meeting her future husband Mooney, age 22. She had six kids, 4 born before she was 20. He was the driving force behind her country music career.

She wrote and recorded the song “The Pill” in 1975 after observing women everywhere she went all saying they were taking this latest (often life-changing) form of birth control. As you can imagine, for the time era, it was rather controversial; some radio stations refused to play it. It remains, however, one of her most popular songs.

>>>  In a Playgirl interview, Loretta said after the song's success, she was congratulated by a number of rural physicians, telling her how "The Pill" had done more to highlight the availability of birth control in isolated, rural areas, than all the literature they'd released.

 

Lyrics to The Pill, only hidden so they don’t take up so much space in the post.

Spoiler

You wined me and dined me when I was your girl
Promised if I'd be your wife you’d show me the world
But all I've seen of this old world Is a bed and a doctor bill
I'm tearin' down your brooder house
'Cause now I've got the pill

All these years I've stayed at home while you had all your fun
And every year that's gone, by another baby's come
There's a gonna be some changes made right here on nursery hill
You've set this chicken your last time
'Cause now I've got the pill

This old maternity dress I've got Is goin' in the garbage
The clothes I'm wearin' from now on won’t take up so much yardage
Miniskirts, hot pants and a few little fancy frills
Yeah I'm makin' up for all those years
Since I've got the pill

I'm tired of all your crowin', how you and your hens play
While holdin' a couple in my arms, another’s on the way
This chicken's done tore up her nest and I'm ready to make a deal
And ya can't afford to turn it down
'Cause you know I've got the pill

This incubator is overused because you've kept it filled
The feelin' good comes easy now, since I've got the pill
It's gettin' dark, it's roostin' time, tonight’s too good to be real
Oh, but daddy don't you worry none
'Cause mama's got the pill
 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Cam

[Meggo]

On 4/1/2022 at 10:57 AM, AnywhereButHere said:

My grandfather was in his early 30s when he decided it was time he got married. He headed back to the old country, hit up an orphanage, and picked out my grandmother who was (as I've heard it from the family) the prettiest girl there. She was 16. This is both as creepy as it sounds and not as creepy as it sounds. This was around 1920-1922 ish and older men marrying younger women was not unheard of in the culture anyway, and due to circumstances there were tons of young women/children in orphanages needing a better life/to get the hell out of Dodge. There's a lot of background that would take a novel that would put the creepy factor into perspective, but anyway... All this to say, at 17 my grandma was pregnant for the first time with twins. She then went on to have 5 more children, so their big family capped out at 7. She probably thought she was done at 6 kids until my mom came along 9 years after the 6th and surprised them all. I don't think there were any losses in those 9 years. I think it was just a case of grandma heaving a huge sigh and then - HI Mom! 

My great grandmother died in the early to mid 30s - leaving Great Grandpa with about 6 kids I think. Family stories don't agree on why he went to Poland - in the early 30s to get his step daughter. Some family says Great Grandma said "Go get my daughter and bring her to the US" and some say it's "Go get my daughter and whatever you do - don't marry her." (Great Grandma had the daughter before she came to the US - before she met her husband etc - she left her at an orphanage but kept in touch with her I guess? Details are sketchy - it was rumored she also had a boy but gave him to a farmer in exchange for passage out?). 

So his wife dies - he goes to Poland - finds this woman (keep in mind, it's his step daughter - but he never laid eyes on her, let alone raised her) - she has three kids but is widowed. He says "Okay - let's go to the US - I'll take you to the US - a better life for you and your kids". The government told him that he could take HER out of the country - but had to leave the kids. Unless they got married. She refused to leave her children behind - so they got married and had a few more kids back in the US. 

It's all very confusing. Their kids were half siblings and nieces/nephews? of the original kids. We call it the family shrub. Not so much a tree- more like a shrub. 
But I imagine while there was a lot of married for love going on? There was probably a lot of "married for security" going on too... Maybe they loved each other - I'm not sure. The original kids did NOT like her. I can only imagine what it would be like to see your dad come home with this woman and three kids and try to pretend everything is hunky dorey...  I only saw her once, I've seen maybe two pictures of her. She did end up remarrying after my great grandpa died (which - why wouldn't you - if you have a pack of kids... she at least had 5 or so by then - her original three and a few others). 

[JermajestyDuggar]

38 minutes ago, Meggo said:

My great grandmother died in the early to mid 30s - leaving Great Grandpa with about 6 kids I think. Family stories don't agree on why he went to Poland - in the early 30s to get his step daughter. Some family says Great Grandma said "Go get my daughter and bring her to the US" and some say it's "Go get my daughter and whatever you do - don't marry her." (Great Grandma had the daughter before she came to the US - before she met her husband etc - she left her at an orphanage but kept in touch with her I guess? Details are sketchy - it was rumored she also had a boy but gave him to a farmer in exchange for passage out?). 

So his wife dies - he goes to Poland - finds this woman (keep in mind, it's his step daughter - but he never laid eyes on her, let alone raised her) - she has three kids but is widowed. He says "Okay - let's go to the US - I'll take you to the US - a better life for you and your kids". The government told him that he could take HER out of the country - but had to leave the kids. Unless they got married. She refused to leave her children behind - so they got married and had a few more kids back in the US. 

It's all very confusing. Their kids were half siblings and nieces/nephews? of the original kids. We call it the family shrub. Not so much a tree- more like a shrub. 
But I imagine while there was a lot of married for love going on? There was probably a lot of "married for security" going on too... Maybe they loved each other - I'm not sure. The original kids did NOT like her. I can only imagine what it would be like to see your dad come home with this woman and three kids and try to pretend everything is hunky dorey...  I only saw her once, I've seen maybe two pictures of her. She did end up remarrying after my great grandpa died (which - why wouldn't you - if you have a pack of kids... she at least had 5 or so by then - her original three and a few others). 

I can understand it would be upsetting for the six kids. Their older half sister married their dad not long after their mom died. And their half nieces/nephews are now their step siblings. And the new kids are their half nieces/nephews and half siblings at the same time. That’s one difficult situation. 

[Bad Wolf]

Mr. Wolf's sister died, and after a few years her husband married Mr. Wolf's brother's ex wife. Kids were all grown by then, and everyone got along.

[Cam]

1 hour ago, Meggo said:

My great grandmother died in the early to mid 30s - leaving Great Grandpa with about 6 kids I think. Family stories don't agree on why he went to Poland - in the early 30s to get his step daughter. Some family says Great Grandma said "Go get my daughter and bring her to the US" and some say it's "Go get my daughter and whatever you do - don't marry her." (Great Grandma had the daughter before she came to the US - before she met her husband etc - she left her at an orphanage but kept in touch with her I guess? Details are sketchy - it was rumored she also had a boy but gave him to a farmer in exchange for passage out?). 

So his wife dies - he goes to Poland - finds this woman (keep in mind, it's his step daughter - but he never laid eyes on her, let alone raised her) - she has three kids but is widowed. He says "Okay - let's go to the US - I'll take you to the US - a better life for you and your kids". The government told him that he could take HER out of the country - but had to leave the kids. Unless they got married. She refused to leave her children behind - so they got married and had a few more kids back in the US. 

It's all very confusing. Their kids were half siblings and nieces/nephews? of the original kids. We call it the family shrub. Not so much a tree- more like a shrub. 
But I imagine while there was a lot of married for love going on? There was probably a lot of "married for security" going on too... Maybe they loved each other - I'm not sure. The original kids did NOT like her. I can only imagine what it would be like to see your dad come home with this woman and three kids and try to pretend everything is hunky dorey...  I only saw her once, I've seen maybe two pictures of her. She did end up remarrying after my great grandpa died (which - why wouldn't you - if you have a pack of kids... she at least had 5 or so by then - her original three and a few others). 

This is the kind of tale that if you saw it on a soap opera, you’d say, “These storylines get kookier and kookier!” But as it’s real life, it is, in a way, rather fascinating. And I could see a tangled “family tree shrub” like this being made into a movie.

[Smash!]

I think back then there was a lot of family shrub (love the name! @Meggo), since only marriage and kids (who could work) provided security. 

 

[Meggo]

57 minutes ago, Cam said:

This is the kind of tale that if you saw it on a soap opera, you’d say, “These storylines get kookier and kookier!” But as it’s real life, it is, in a way, rather fascinating. And I could see a tangled “family tree shrub” like this being made into a movie.

I've always had it in the back of my head as an idea for a story. Because I want to understand how it all happened. Great Grandma - on her marriage registry - said "never married" when she got married to great grandpa. So did HE know? Had she never actually been married but had this daughter without being married? And there is a son rumored - is HE a real live person to? Same dad? And how utterly heartbreaking to leave your little girl (or boy - or both) when they're small. I think the daughter was only 4 or 5? And leaving Poland for the US then must have been akin to going to the moon really. She never went back. And if there was a boy - what happened to him? Why didn't anyone go back for him? 
And then going to Poland to collect your dead wife's daughter and finding out you had to marry her to bring her and her kids back with you. Did you love her? Was it convenience? How weird is it to marry your wife's daughter? And those kids - what happened to THEIR dad? There were a few of them (three maybe?) and no one ever talks about if she was married or not when she had them. Just that there was no way she was leaving her kids (admirable). 

It's all just so crazy

 

[Bastet]

If Mary got a diaphragm, she would have needed the help of a doctor. They come in different sizes and she’d need to be fitted. She could then have Anna pick it up from the pharmacy, of course. A cervical cap is different from a diaphragm, but I imagine that too would need to be fitted. 
  Diaphragms are great if you don’t want hormonal birth control. Used correctly they are very effective.  Not useful if you are having sex in the back seat of a car or on the beach, however. 
  I used one for years. Only downside for me was that after filling and coating it with contraceptive jelly, you had to fold the slippery thing to insert it into your vagina, and it might shoot across the room instead. 

[patsymae]

On 4/4/2022 at 9:12 AM, Meggo said:

My great grandmother died in the early to mid 30s - leaving Great Grandpa with about 6 kids I think. Family stories don't agree on why he went to Poland - in the early 30s to get his step daughter. Some family says Great Grandma said "Go get my daughter and bring her to the US" and some say it's "Go get my daughter and whatever you do - don't marry her." (Great Grandma had the daughter before she came to the US - before she met her husband etc - she left her at an orphanage but kept in touch with her I guess? Details are sketchy - it was rumored she also had a boy but gave him to a farmer in exchange for passage out?). 

So his wife dies - he goes to Poland - finds this woman (keep in mind, it's his step daughter - but he never laid eyes on her, let alone raised her) - she has three kids but is widowed. He says "Okay - let's go to the US - I'll take you to the US - a better life for you and your kids". The government told him that he could take HER out of the country - but had to leave the kids. Unless they got married. She refused to leave her children behind - so they got married and had a few more kids back in the US. 

It's all very confusing. Their kids were half siblings and nieces/nephews? of the original kids. We call it the family shrub. Not so much a tree- more like a shrub. 
But I imagine while there was a lot of married for love going on? There was probably a lot of "married for security" going on too... Maybe they loved each other - I'm not sure. The original kids did NOT like her. I can only imagine what it would be like to see your dad come home with this woman and three kids and try to pretend everything is hunky dorey...  I only saw her once, I've seen maybe two pictures of her. She did end up remarrying after my great grandpa died (which - why wouldn't you - if you have a pack of kids... she at least had 5 or so by then - her original three and a few others). 

I'm thinking a lot of people would have done whatever it took to get out of Poland in the 1930s.

[libgirl2]

On 4/4/2022 at 7:10 AM, Cam said:

Yes, didn’t Mr. Bates think Anna secretly purchased the diaphragm for her own use?

I happened to see a clip of country superstar singer/songwriter Loretta Lynn this morning of her singing her hit “The Pill”. Some of you know the story surrounding the song; here’s a recap:

In 1948, Kentuckian Loretta Lynn got married at age 15, a month after meeting her future husband Mooney, age 22. She had six kids, 4 born before she was 20. He was the driving force behind her country music career.

She wrote and recorded the song “The Pill” in 1975 after observing women everywhere she went all saying they were taking this latest (often life-changing) form of birth control. As you can imagine, for the time era, it was rather controversial; some radio stations refused to play it. It remains, however, one of her most popular songs.

>>>  In a Playgirl interview, Loretta said after the song's success, she was congratulated by a number of rural physicians, telling her how "The Pill" had done more to highlight the availability of birth control in isolated, rural areas, than all the literature they'd released.

 

Lyrics to The Pill, only hidden so they don’t take up so much space in the post.

  Reveal hidden contents

You wined me and dined me when I was your girl
Promised if I'd be your wife you’d show me the world
But all I've seen of this old world Is a bed and a doctor bill
I'm tearin' down your brooder house
'Cause now I've got the pill

All these years I've stayed at home while you had all your fun
And every year that's gone, by another baby's come
There's a gonna be some changes made right here on nursery hill
You've set this chicken your last time
'Cause now I've got the pill

This old maternity dress I've got Is goin' in the garbage
The clothes I'm wearin' from now on won’t take up so much yardage
Miniskirts, hot pants and a few little fancy frills
Yeah I'm makin' up for all those years
Since I've got the pill

I'm tired of all your crowin', how you and your hens play
While holdin' a couple in my arms, another’s on the way
This chicken's done tore up her nest and I'm ready to make a deal
And ya can't afford to turn it down
'Cause you know I've got the pill

This incubator is overused because you've kept it filled
The feelin' good comes easy now, since I've got the pill
It's gettin' dark, it's roostin' time, tonight’s too good to be real
Oh, but daddy don't you worry none
'Cause mama's got the pill
 

 

She is probably my favorite country singer of all time. She caused quite a stir with that song. I think she went on the pill as soon as she could. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by libgirl2

[Cam]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

She is probably my favorite country singer of all time. She caused quite a stir with that song. I think she went on the pill as soon as she could. 

“Coal Miner’s Daughter” remains one of my very favorite songs of all time. Written and sung by Loretta, it’s been called “the autobiography of an incredible life summed up in just three minutes”. Loretta Lynn is simply spectacular. 
 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 4/3/2022 at 7:10 PM, Heidijoey said:

And it caused all sorts of trouble for Anna and Mr. Bates

That’s basically the plot of Downton Abbey; something happened then this other thing happened then Anna and Bates’ life got blown up…again.

[AprilQuilt]

On 4/3/2022 at 1:26 PM, Cam said:

I love that you brought this up; I’d forgotten about it. First, let me say when I saw this episode,  I thought it might be a totally unrealistic storyline because I never thought someone like Mary had sex outside of marriage. I guess that’s my Catholic upbringing influencing my thoughts (no longer Catholic, btw).

Since I’m a big fan of this incredible TV series, I had to do a little research on your comments. And the subject matter is pretty accurate. Here’s what I found:

This storyline is from Season 5, episode 2. The year depicted is 1924.

Some additional interesting insight from the website “ As Seen on TV”:

Lady Mary is shown holding a book by Marie Stopes and mentions the author as she instructs Anna to run an errand on her behalf. Lady Mary sends her lady’s maid because it would be indecent for a woman of Lady Mary’s social stature to do herself—the implication is that Mary needs something pertaining to contraception. 

Marie Charlotte Carmichael Stopes (1880-1958) was a British author, scientist, and renowned activist for women’s rights and birth control. Her first book, “Married Love”, published in 1918, covered the topic of sex and family planning for married couples and was both controversial and influential. Stopes went on to write many additional titles on this topic. She also opened the 1st family planning clinic in Britain promoting the use of and provided patrons with access to contraception.

The wide success of her first book prompted fans to write to her with questions on the subject, so Stopes published “Wise Parenthood” as a follow-up in November 1918.

“Wise Parenthood” most likely was the book referenced on this episode. “Wise Parenthood” provides information about different options for birth control, including condoms, withdrawal, and the rhythm method. The book especially  recommends a rubber cervical cap with a quinine pessary, which was a smaller form of the modern diaphragm. In this episode, Mary wanted to obtain birth control to use during her liaisons with Tony Foyle, the Viscount Gillingham. While it was never explicitly shown, the rubber cervical cap was what likely was in the brown bag Anna brought Lady Mary from the pharmacy, as this was the method of birth control that Stopes most highly recommended in her book.

 

 

Marie Stopes did a lot of good but sadly she was also a eugenicist. I mean literally espoused eugenics. She definitely improved the prospects of poor working-class families by introducing their married women to family planning methods and breaking down the taboos around them, but she had other reasons for wanting to thin out their numbers. I'm sure she'd have had no problem with Lady Mary procreating though...

[JermajestyDuggar]

35 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

Marie Stopes did a lot of good but sadly she was also a eugenicist. I mean literally espoused eugenics. She definitely improved the prospects of poor working-class families by introducing their married women to family planning methods and breaking down the taboos around them, but she had other reasons for wanting to thin out their numbers. I'm sure she'd have had no problem with Lady Mary procreating though...

That’s what I seem to find when I look around at people who pushed for better birth control and family planning in the early 20th century. A bunch of eugenicists. Gag. Which anti-choicers love to bring up and use to their advantage. Claiming pro-choicers are racist and want to abort all the black fetuses. 

Edited May 2, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[lumpentheologie]

Late to this topic but in grad school I read the book Birth Control, Sex, and Marriage in Britain 1918-1960 by Kate Fisher. It's based on a lot of oral history and I think it would be interesting and accessible to a non-specialist audience. 

One of the things I remember from it was that condoms became available at drugstores (behind the counter) following WWI. Condoms had been around for hundreds of years before that, at least since the 18th century to my knowledge (made from sheep intestines early on, and reused), but they were used almost exclusively by prostitutes.

During the First World War a lot of young men left their rural hometowns and got some experience with these worldly prostitutes, and that gave them the idea that they could use condoms to limit their family size at home, especially since this was around the time many people were moving from farms into more urban environments where tons of children was seen as somewhat less of a blessing. But because sex was so taboo for women to talk about or even acknowledge it was only men who would buy them and decide when to use them. (Interestingly oral sex for men became common around this time in the same way, and may also have contributed to limiting family size.) 

Actually a side effect of sex being so taboo to discuss was that when women actively limited their families it was through abortion and not birth control. You didn't have to admit you were having sex in order to seek out help to "bring on your monthlies" and women went to professionals for this and also traded information about how to do it at home. 

I'd also like to add that sex being only for reproduction and not something women were supposed to enjoy was very much a British/Anglo/Northwest European cultural thing. Southern European Catholics (and immigrants from those countries) had no such hang ups since they weren't influenced by Puritan/Victorian morals. 

 

[Smee]

On 5/2/2022 at 9:40 PM, AprilQuilt said:

Marie Stopes did a lot of good but sadly she was also a eugenicist. I mean literally espoused eugenics. She definitely improved the prospects of poor working-class families by introducing their married women to family planning methods and breaking down the taboos around them, but she had other reasons for wanting to thin out their numbers. I'm sure she'd have had no problem with Lady Mary procreating though...

Oh dear. I didn’t know about the woman prior to this thread, but there’s an international reproductive & sexual health service named after her. They provide contraception, vasectomies, abortions, and crisis pregnancy counselling.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Smee

[rosamundi]

On 5/2/2022 at 12:40 PM, AprilQuilt said:

Marie Stopes did a lot of good but sadly she was also a eugenicist. I mean literally espoused eugenics.

She cut her son out of her will because he married a woman with myopia and she thought the children were at risk of inheriting it. That's how much of a eugenicist she was. When she died, she left her clinic to the Eugenics Society.

[lumpentheologie]

Unfortunately eugenics was all the rage in science and medicine in the early 20th century. Once people accepted evolution it seemed the natural next step to support eugenics. Even Charles Darwin had endorsed it. So yeah basically all early birth control advocates were eugenicists. 

The US and Australia were some of the worst offenders in eugenics policy at that time -- the Nazis actually copied a lot of their early programs from the US. (My own great-grandmother was forcibly sterilized in California in the 30s.) But eugenics was seen as very necessary by the white, educated middle class in most places. The idea of evolution as "survival of the fittest" convinced people to embrace social Darwinism because they thought if other countries engineered their populations to be "more fit," then those countries would be taking over the ones that didn't. So there was basically a eugenicist arms race. But of course it also fit in very nicely with existing racist and classist beliefs. 

It wasn't till after the Holocaust took eugenics to its natural conclusion that people started backing away from it. But it's an ongoing struggle -- there are still prisons in the US today where people can get out earlier if they get sterilized. 

One of the major arguments during the Scopes trial in 1925 (against teaching evolution in schools) was that if kids accepted evolution they would all become heartless eugenicists, instead of Christians who valued each person as made in the image of God. 

According to a study out last month, though, it seems that believing in evolution nowadays means one is less likely to be racist and bigoted: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/04/220404164604.htm. I'm not buying the authors' ahistorical and contextless account of why, though. 

 

[AprilQuilt]

1 hour ago, Smee said:

Oh dear. I didn’t know about the woman prior to this thread, but there’s an international reproductive & sexual health service named after her. They provide contraception, vasectomies, abortions, and crisis pregnancy counselling.

yes, in fact I donate to it! Fortunately it changed its name in 2020.

It's a very complicated subject as Marie Stopes really did empower women to control their fertility in ways that were positive for them and their families: Stopes' work was also really important in recording real working-class women's thoughts on sex and fertility in a way that simply wasn't done in that era. But eugenics was absolutely everywhere and very insidiously interwoven through all kinds of otherwise-commendable work around empowering the marginalised. I think it boils down to there still being an intellectual hang-up about 'deservingness', a very narrow view of what could be defined as a successful life - and a reticence to accept that the poor, the disabled, POC, women were not naturally 'lesser' in some way. Even Helen Keller espoused eugenics, at least in the case of the Bollinger baby (she called it 'weeding the human garden'). It's ugly, is all I can say.

[backyard sylph]

Just want to say this is a pet topic of mine, I have a few books on the subject from around a hundred years ago, and I am enjoying that it came up in the Joe and Kendra thread, the little dears...

Didn't the Nazis think all the "proper" Aryan families should each have six children for the Reich? Gruesome to consider— I do have six kids myself, but they would mostly not pass their purity tests.

[Pecansforeveryone]

I know there was some type of "womanhood" award the Third Reich bestowed on women who had at least five children. 

[backyard sylph]

That must be part of what I'm trying to remember. Imagine being infertile or having secondary infertility, and looked askance at because you haven't earned your medal. But of course there must have been many women who at least secretly didn't want the honor at all. 

My tangents are not usually so relevant. 

[Nothing if not critical]

Yeah, there was a "mother's cross" in bronze, silver and gold, depending on how many kids you had, and it was a deliberate parallel to military honours and decorations. Because the men were supposed to die in Hitler's wars, while the women's job was to produce more soldiers for him. It wasn't exactly subtle. Oh yeah, and of course the kids had to come from "proper Aryan families" 🤢.