Joe & Kendra 16: Praise - ing Their Brooklyn All the Day Long!

[anjulibai]

My mom was one of 9 kids, but none of my grandparents siblings had that many. My Gramma's two brothers had 3 kid, and my Gramma's sister had 2. My Grampa's brother had 4 kids. Everyone on that side of the family thought they were nuts for having so many. And these were Catholics. 

My dad was one of four, though his brother died as a child. My Gramma on this side was an only child. Not sure why, but she said she thought it was because it was the Depression and they were especially poor. My Grampa was one of 8 kids; they lived on a farm, and he always said his parents had so many because his father wanted help on the farm. 

[Nothing if not critical]

My super Catholic great-grand-mother had 16 kids, but only 9 survived; she can't have been too happy, though, since she suffered from depression and ended up taking her own life (that was in 1942). My grandma had 12 kids, who miraculously all survived to adulthood, despite there being a war and the family having to flee from the advancing Soviet army. My mom hated being one of so many and having to sister-mom her younger siblings (she was number 8, but only the second girl, after six boys in a row).

So yeah, some people had big families. My grandparents thought they could afford it, because they had their own farm, but then they ended up penniless refugees, and it was a different story. Still, not everyone had that many. My ancestors were just lucky - or unlucky enough - to be super fertile and healthy.

[Jana814]

I have mentioned this before. My mother was an only child. Her father died when she was 13. Her parents were 12 years apart & my grandfather had a lot of siblings. I know nothing about my mother’s father’s extended family. I know about her mother’s family because we would see them a few times a year. One of my cousins just moved to my town into a house that is the same layout as my parents house. I have seen him more in the 8 months that he has lived in town then I have in years. 

[CanadianMamam]

There are a lot of bigger families in my genealogy but I come from farming stock and more kids= more people to work the land. 

My maternal grandmother parents were shopkeepers and only had two children (one who died early). So I suspect thay economics and family situation played a part. 

[SassyPants]

The 1960s and birth control pills changed family sizes. I know many 50s families that had more kids than the parents might have preferred. Lots of women took pills for anxiety/depression. I think when you know better you do better. Kendra has had 3 babies in 32 month’s time, and is most likely PG again. In 2022 we know better in terms of what is best for mothers and babies. Having a baby a year is not healthy, for anyone. I will be interested to see when/why it stops. Will it be a bad outcome, finances, a coming to Jesus or menopause? If Kendra keeps up this pace for the next 20 years…

[LancetteShing99]

My ancestors were mostly catholic farmers and those who still lived on the farms usually had many kids.

One of my great-grandmothers (my maternal grandmother's mother) lived on a farm and she had 9 children. But her first one was born when she was 27 and her last one a few weeks before her 45th birthday. So if she had started procreating as young as Kendra, she would have hit double digits.

My maternal grandfather's parents were also from big farming families. My great-grandfather's mother was tragically killed by a cow when she was pregnant with her tenth child. But my great-grandparents left the farms after their marriage and moved into the city. They had only three well spaced out children in their late 20s and early 30s.

My maternal grandparents, who also lived in the city also only had three well spaced out kids.

My extremely catholic paternal grandmother who always said that she left the number of her kids up to god (and I firmly believe her) "only" had six kids. But when she birthed her first child she was already 34. Her first three children were born within 2,5 years. After them she slowed down a little, maybe due to age or because she didn't have enough time to procreate with so many small children and a farm. She had her last baby when she was 45 years old. If she had started as young as Kendra she could have had easily 19 kids and counting.

I do really hope that Kendra and Joe soon come to their senses and stop having a child every year. This is not healthy. Neither for them nor for their children.

[SassyPants]

I know Kendra hangs out at her mom’s a lot. The family probably goes to church on Sunday and they clearly have enough sex to always be pregnant(which could mean once a year). I wonder besides those activities, what do Kendra and Joe do for fun? Is it all God, laundry and diapers? Do they read? Binge Netflix? Shop? Play video games? Bible classes? Pottery? Garden? Take drives in the Ozarks? Cook fancy meals? Date nights? I want to know!

[Cam]

5 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Kendra has had 3 babies in 32 month’s time, and is most likely PG again. In 2022 we know better in terms of what is best for mothers and babies. Having a baby a year is not healthy, for anyone. I will be interested to see when/why it stops. Will it be a bad outcome, finances, a coming to Jesus or menopause? If Kendra keeps up this pace for the next 20 years…

 

1 hour ago, LancetteShing99 said:

7 minutes ago, Cam said:

 I’m glad to see Joe mentioned in your post (below). I read too many that only mention Kendra as having all these kids too fast and it’s the both of them.

I do really hope that Kendra and Joe soon come to their senses and stop having a child every year. This is not healthy. Neither for them nor for their children.

(Please forgive how I jumbled the quotes posted here, I sometimes struggle with this part and cannot figure out how to correct!)

Edited March 29, 2022 by Cam

[patsymae]

"My super Catholic great-grand-mother had 16 kids, but only 9 survived; she can't have been too happy, though, since she suffered from depression and ended up taking her own life (that was in 1942)"

My super-Catholic great-grandmother didn't reach 16 because after birthing one every two years up until about 8 kids, she hung herself with a belt in a psychiatric hospital in 1937.

Two decades later my Catholic school gave out an award to a woman who had a child in every grade, including the high school. 

ALL these male-dominated religions have a lot to answer for.

 

[Hasunah2]

8 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

None of my great grandparents in my family had double digits children. Of my 4 sets of great grandparents, one couple had 2, one couple had 4, one couple had 5 and one couple had 6. I really don’t remember my mom talking about anyone in the family history having a huge amount of children. I know 8 is considered quite big because my great grandmother’s brother had 8 and everyone was like, “wow that’s a lot.” I will say my entire family is Protestant not Catholic. I don’t know if that makes a difference. 

My grandmother had 3 in the 1950s with one miscarriage and her mother had 3  from 1929 to 1939 . My grandfather was one of 4 but would have  probably been one of 3 if his sister hadn't died at age 6 of heart failure  . His last sibling was born the year after she died and the story told about this was that the family doctor told them to have another baby to cheer up the family .  

[patsymae]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I know Kendra hangs out at her mom’s a lot. The family probably goes to church on Sunday and they clearly have enough sex to always be pregnant(which could mean once a year). I wonder besides those activities, what do Kendra and Joe do for fun? Is it all God, laundry and diapers? Do they read? Binge Netflix? Shop? Play video games? Bible classes? Pottery? Garden? Take drives in the Ozarks? Cook fancy meals? Date nights? I want to know!

I'm voting God, laundry and diapers. With the occasional family wedding or ugly sweater party, complete with all the children, for "fun."

[Vivi_music]

French Canadians had the reputation of having big families. Of course, they were Catholic, but on top of that, the French Canadian clergy strongly encouraged high fertility. It was seen as a way to ensure survival of the French culture in North America. Demographers and historians have called it the ''La Revanche du berceau (French for "the revenge of the cradle"). The implication was that it would not be possible to discriminate against francophones if they remained numerous.

I wanted to look up the average children for French-Canadian women in the 19th century. Quickly googled demographic article about Québec and French-Canada. Took me 2 minutes online, and found tons of articles demystifying mega-families. Here is an extcerpt under the spoiler:

Spoiler

Quote from HENRIPIN, Jacques, ''Trois siècle de « grosses familles »'', 1994. https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/cd/1994-n39-cd1042227/8656ac.pdf

Translated loosely by me.

It is often thought that French Canadian families once had twelve or more children. This is a myth. Like all myths, this one contains a part of truth: several families reached these numbers, but the average was lower, even for families who had "as many as necessary", i.e. whose mother survived at least until the end of her fertile slice of life, i.e. 50 years. These families, which can be called "complete", had eight or nine children on average. This was not the case for all, far from i. During these two and a half centuries (and even afterwards), death took many parents, especially mothers, before they had time to bring into the world all the children that "God would have sent them". Death played an important role in the size of families. Note that by ''family'', we mean a couple and their children, excluding any new additions from a remarriage.

All in all, the average size of families probably approached seven children; say eight and a half for complete families; five or six for those whose life has been interrupted broken by the death of one of the spouses

 

I think this is pretty interesting. It seems that naturally, women had 7 or 8 children during their whole fertile life (from the time they were married until 50 years old according to that author). 7 or 8 kids until you reach 50, that's even less than one child a year or every two years.

Megafamilies of course did exist. My grandmother was the last of 18! A very fertile woman, that has a good enough constitution to withstand that many pregnancies and starting young, I'm sure it happened. But it was a fluke. QFs are imagining an idealic and fake version of the past, warped by with their conservative lenses.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Vivi_music
Spoiler

[Cam]

If you think back to those times, the 19th century, the 1800s, there wasn’t talk about being joyfully available. Sex was not openly discussed. There were puritanical societal rules and women were definitely not supposed to even consider doing it for any other reason than to bear children. A wife’s duty. Most females didn’t even know how pregnancy occurred until they married because their mothers, sisters or friends did not talk about “delicate” subjects like that. 
 

If you had a farm or family business, you had plenty of kids to help you sustain your livelihood. Life expectancy was a lot shorter back then, and there were more childhood deaths for all the reasons you can think of off the top of your head like no antibiotics or vaccines. The possibility was more prevalent that one or more of your children might not live to adulthood. Life was hard. No electricity. No indoor plumbing. Wood or coal to heat your home. No Convenient Store or McDonalds to grab something quick to eat. Hell, no cars. Sure, couples had more children back then due to no birth control, but maybe mega-sized families weren’t the norm since, if you’re spending your days laboring just to live, you might not always feel like a romp in the hay come nightfall.

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Cam

[NotQuiteMotY]

I'm trying to think of anyone in my family's history having double-digit kids and can't. My grandfather on one side was one of eight, seven of which survived childhood (infancy? Not sure about the age of the one who didn't), and I think you have go to back to my great-grandparents on the other side to find any with more than one or two siblings, and even then it was "only" about half a dozen kids in a farming family.

[backyard sylph]

My mother-in-law was the youngest of seventeen on a Kentucky tobacco farm. I'm pretty sure they all lived to adulthood, though not all to old age. She died just last year at 96. 

[HeartsAFundie]

My maternal grandmother was one of 10 siblings.  She was number 7 in birth order.  I know that one of the siblings did not make it to adulthood.  The others all had relatively long lifespans ranging from mid 70s to early 90s.   My grandmother lived to be 93 and was the last surviving one.   

The rest of my grandparents came from families that would be considered large by today's standards but nothing out of the ordinary.  My paternal grandmother was one of 6 siblings and number 3 in birth order; maternal grandfather was one of 4 siblings (birth order unknown) and my paternal grandfather was the youngest of 5 siblings. 

I never really thought about my grandparents' family sizes to put them in perspective until I read others' posts.  As always, FJ keeps me thinking!  🙂 

 

[ophelia]

One of my great-grandmothers sisters had 16 children. They lived in early 1900 Netherlands and 14 of the kids reached adulthood. That is the only big family I can think of. My mother, grandmother and grandfather all had only one sibling.

[Smash!]

15 hours ago, SassyPants said:

The 1960s and birth control pills changed family sizes. I know many 50s families that had more kids than the parents might have preferred.

My mom always said the birth control pill freed women.

Several women of my family had to marry because the man they were in a relationship with couldn‘t wait to have sex and they got pregnant. 

Even tough double digits of children didn‘t exist (or maybe some didn‘t survive) in my family 8-10 kids were very common. I still think this is a lot especially if food wasn‘t as easily available. My grandmother who grew up on a farm definitely had not enough to eat at times while she was growing up. And we‘re talking the 20th century in Western Europe.

[medimus]

11 hours ago, patsymae said:

Two decades later my Catholic school gave out an award to a woman who had a child in every grade, including the high school. 

This is insane, both for that poor woman and the fact the school handed out an award?! 

It does remind me of various awards countries have for large families:

• France's Medaille de la famille Française bronze for 4-5, silver for 6-7 and gold for 8 or more children 'raised with dignity'
• Nazi Germany's cross of honour of the German mother with the same categories as France
• Soviet unions Mother heroine for 10 or more children and order of maternal glory 1st, 2nd and 3rd class for 9,8 and 7 children respectively
• Russia: Order of parental glory for 7 or more children (and various other countries have similar after the disunion of the SU)
• less formal, In Belgium a seventh son (in a row) becomes the godson of the king, a seventh daughter (in a row) becomes the goddaughter of the queen

8 hours ago, Cam said:

If you think back to those times, the 19th century, the 1800s, there wasn’t talk about being joyfully available. Sex was not openly discussed. There were puritanical societal rules and women were definitely not supposed to even consider doing it for any other reason than to bear children. A wife’s duty. Most females didn’t even know how pregnancy occurred until they married because their mothers, sisters or friends did not talk about “delicate” subjects like that. 
 

I think this is somewhat of a myth that feeds in to fundies 'everything was more pure and better in the past'. Yes in the Victorian era and early 20th century there was very little in the way of 'open' sexuality, before that attitudes did differ (also in different places).

For example in the 16th century (I think) it was thought women had to orgasm to have a baby, so this was an important thing.

[IsmeWeatherwax]

My mother (born Dec 1937) was 9 of 11, first being born in 1924 and they came every 1year and 2 months until Granda joined up in 1939 then Granny got a blessed relief and had a gap of 9 years, thought it was a menopause baby lol My Granny and Granda also came from families of 8-10 kids. 

My dad (born Sept 1936) was 1 of 2, Auntie was born a year after they married in 1936. Tbh Im surprised granny had 2, can't be doing with that sort of thing...poor grampa 😂

[GreenBeans]

18 hours ago, SassyPants said:

The 1960s and birth control pills changed family sizes. I know many 50s families that had more kids than the parents might have preferred.

This! My grandma once told me that as soon as birth control pills were available she got them, at the time being the first woman in their small town who requested the prescription from the local GP. She had three children (mid-50s to early 60s), a financially difficult marriage and an alcoholic husband she later divorced (also as one of the first women in their small town). To her, birth control pills were a godsend that enabled her to take charge of her life and family. She loved the children she had, but also felt that three were enough, especially considering the circumstances.

[Nothing if not critical]

1 hour ago, medimus said:

Nazi Germany's cross of honour of the German mother with the same categories as France

Yeah, my grandma got one in gold for kiddo number eight, I believe? She had some very choice words to say about that. She also got the dubious honour of Adolf Hitler being the official godfather of one of her kids. And then later, after the war, the new German president being another kid's godfather. I think she'd have preferred more financial support and a decent place to live, instead of having to squeeze 12 children into 250ft of emergency housing.

[GreenBeans]

13 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I know Kendra hangs out at her mom’s a lot. The family probably goes to church on Sunday and they clearly have enough sex to always be pregnant(which could mean once a year). I wonder besides those activities, what do Kendra and Joe do for fun? Is it all God, laundry and diapers? Do they read? Binge Netflix? Shop? Play video games? Bible classes? Pottery? Garden? Take drives in the Ozarks? Cook fancy meals? Date nights? I want to know!

I don’t think there is much time left after laundry and other chores and looking after babies / young kids with no child care and later home schooling. If our boy wasn’t in day care, he would need constant supervision at one and a half. Before baby boy started daycare, my husband (who stayed home on parental leave) didn’t get much done besides chores during the day, and in the evenings we were so tired we took all the sleep we could get. Definitely no time or energy for hobbies or binging Netflix, and that was with only one (though obviously not blanket trained!) child.

[Cam]

2 hours ago, medimus said:

 

I think this is somewhat of a myth that feeds in to fundies 'everything was more pure and better in the past'. Yes in the Victorian era and early 20th century there was very little in the way of 'open' sexuality, before that attitudes did differ (also in different places).

For example in the 16th century (I think) it was thought women had to orgasm to have a baby, so this was an important thing.

Strongly disagree that my comments are attributed to being some kind of myth. If anything, the idea of men caring that women have orgasms in the 16th century seems more mythical. There’s way too many men and women today who still ain’t quite sure where the clitoris is located and think the way to get a woman to orgasm is penis in vagina. 
 

I didn’t use the word pure, either. Back in those days, sex was considered something tolerated by women, it was something disgusting that men did, women did not talk about it, and women only put up with it because society told them the only desire they were allowed to have was to have children/be a mother.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Cam

[JermajestyDuggar]

We have to remember diaphragms were a thing even in the first half of the 20th century. However I think you had to talk your doctor into prescribing one. I had a great aunt with a heart condition who did get married. Her doctors told her she was not allowed to have children. It would kill her. I imagine the doctor very willingly gave her a diaphragm because she was never pregnant although happily married for many years. But I don’t think doctors gave them to just anyone. You probably had to be married and a compelling reason to get your doctor to prescribe one. Like for health reasons.