Joe & Kendra 16: Praise - ing Their Brooklyn All the Day Long!

[Cam]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think sometimes it is influenced by how they grew up. If you grew up in a controlling environment where you were not allowed to make your own decisions, you are primed for that to be your go to in adulthood. I’m guessing making decisions on your own is hard at first as an adult. And you feel less anxiety when a church leader tells you what to do. This way you don’t have to take full responsibility. You did what the preacher told you to do. If it doesn’t work out, that’s not your fault. 

I get your point and agree, however, I’m not talking about just the Duggars. Many adults look to the head of their church or religion for instruction on so many things even if their own personal belief differs. There’s no following your gut or intuition. 
 

HeartaFundie, interesting read about Joe. His parents were there with a big gallon of Koolaid when he questioned his spiritual beliefs.

[CanadianMamam]

My great-grandmother had 8 children, but she also had a few pregnancy losses. I remember commenting on it once to another relative (my great-grandmother died years before I was born) and asking if she had lost pregnancies and having it confirmed that yes, she had. I figured it out because all her children are within 18 months of the previous sibling except two sisters where there is a period of 4 years. I mean, I am sure there could have been other reaosns, but this was the very beginning of the 20th century and loss seemed like the most logical answer. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by CanadianMamam

[Cam]

I looked up a little bit of history about the birth control pill.

An article from The Atlantic tells this story:  
Biologist Gregory Goodwin had settled roughly on the hormone progesterone as the key to the development of the birth control pill which feminist crusader Margaret Sanger had implored him to work on.  Goodwin worked to build a team to do the scientific work, forge alliances with manufacturers, conduct his trials, and, if all went well, spread the news of the coming invention so that it might have a chance at acceptance.

He enlisted Catholic gynecologist John Rock, a doctor respected by his peers and adored by his patients.

John Rock dared to defy his church: He wanted young couples to talk about sex and babies before they married and understand that sex was neither shameful nor obscene. He wanted society to provide safe and effective means of birth control, and for married couples to have the right to use them. In his practice he saw two side of the issue: women struggling to get pregnant and women desperate to stop getting pregnant.

And of course, that’s just part of the story.  Here’s a link to the full article from The Atlantic: 

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/10/the-team-that-invented-the-birth-control-pill/380684/

The article is an excerpt from the book
“The Birth of the Pill: How Four Crusaders Reinvented Sex and Launched a Revolution” by Jonathan Eig, written in 2014. As I just learned of the book I haven’t read it but plan to.

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Cam

[AnywhereButHere]

My grandfather was in his early 30s when he decided it was time he got married. He headed back to the old country, hit up an orphanage, and picked out my grandmother who was (as I've heard it from the family) the prettiest girl there. She was 16. This is both as creepy as it sounds and not as creepy as it sounds. This was around 1920-1922 ish and older men marrying younger women was not unheard of in the culture anyway, and due to circumstances there were tons of young women/children in orphanages needing a better life/to get the hell out of Dodge. There's a lot of background that would take a novel that would put the creepy factor into perspective, but anyway... All this to say, at 17 my grandma was pregnant for the first time with twins. She then went on to have 5 more children, so their big family capped out at 7. She probably thought she was done at 6 kids until my mom came along 9 years after the 6th and surprised them all. I don't think there were any losses in those 9 years. I think it was just a case of grandma heaving a huge sigh and then - HI Mom! 

On my dad's side he was the 2nd of 4. Also a case of much older man/very young woman, but in that case she was the one that looked at my grandfather and decided he would give her a life of security and safety and made it happen. She did write a memoir of sorts detailing her experiences, and what she actually wrote was scary enough. What was implied was worse. Safety and security were awesome - age be damned. 

[neurogirl]

@SorenaJ There were condoms and diaphragms in the 1930s as well! I don't know how accessible they were for my Midwestern relatives but they were around!  

[TuringMachine]

12 hours ago, HeartsAFundie said:

There were times when I would think, Maybe I’m not truly a Christian. Maybe I’m just going through the motions, and I’m not truly saved. But then, in pride, I would shake off those feelings, and resist that idea. What would others think of me? Everyone around me thinks I’m already a Christian. From the outside, no one could tell my inward struggle. I wasn’t rebellious or disrespectful. I looked like I had my life together and I was a “good kid.” But inwardly, I knew that I was lacking a real and personal relationship with Jesus Christ, a true hunger for His word, a brokenness over sin, and a desire to see others come to know Him. "

This actually sounds a lot like Link from Good Mythical Morning's spiritual deconstruction video. At one point he talks about how he was his church's song leader back in North Carolina, how he'd get really into playing / singing the songs, and how everyone must think he's really feeling a connection with Jesus, but in reality he felt nothing and was desperately trying to. Unlike Joe, Link came to recognize that it was the church that was making him feel guilty and inadequate, and was able to leave. Of course to be fair Link was an independent adult with friends outside the church and a best friend who was also doubting his faith at the time.

It must be so exhausting to force yourself to have "a real and personal relationship with Jesus Christ, a true hunger for His word, a brokenness over sin, and a desire to see others come to know Him," all the time lest you're overcome with guilt.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

My grandpa (born 1914) was the youngest of a big family, not because he was a surprise, but because his mother’s doctor told her that having a baby would ease perimenopause symptoms. That implies at least a little family planning.

[NotQuiteMotY]

2 hours ago, CanadianMamam said:

My great-grandmother had 8 children, but she also had a few pregnancy losses. I remember commenting on it once to another relative (my great-grandmother died years before I was born) and asking if she had lost pregnancies and having it confirmed that yes, she had. I figured it out because all her children are within 18 months of the previous sibling except two sisters where there is a period of 4 years. I mean, I am sure there could have been other reaosns, but this was the very beginning of the 20th century and loss seemed like the most logical answer. 

Interesting fact (not saying this applies to your family): in at least one book on the history of midwifery, the authors note that both the mothers and the midwives they interviewed sometimes referred to an abortion- of the early gestation "patent pills for female complaints" variety, usually- as a miss or loss instead of an abortion. So there's a chance that a gap in pregnancies being written off as one or more losses in family history may not be the whole story.

[Cam]

 According to The Atlantic article, even into the early 1900s, human reproduction was poorly understood. Many people thought the man’s sperm alone developed into a baby, and that women were merely the vessels. That’s why Catholics considered “spilling seed” whether in sex without intention to reproduce or masturbation was considered a sin. Sex was for procreation only. 

There is no mention of contraception in the Bible, Old Testament or New, nor did the term enter the vocabulary of Catholic moral theology until the second half of the twentieth century.

The Catholic Church had no official position on birth control until 1930, when Pope Pius XI issued a letter prohibiting Catholics from using artificial birth control. 

The pope acknowledged that birth control was widely used “even amongst the faithful,” although he wasn’t happy about it, and called this trend “a new and utterly perverse morality.” He added that it amounted to a “shameful and intrinsically vicious” attempt to get around the natural “power and purpose” of the conjugal act.

[Can you say “patriarchy”?]

The pope offered an important loophole: A married couple would not be sinning if the husband and wife knew that natural reasons prevented them from having children.

This led to an instruction manual on tracking a woman’s menstrual cycle to help regulate pregnancy written by Dr. Leo Latz, a devout Roman Catholic, who coined the term “rhythm method”.  The manual sold hundreds of thousands of copies. Dr. Latz was subsequently fired from his medical position at Loyola University.  He died in 1995 at age 91, which really goes to show how recent all these events were that changed the course of human reproduction.

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Cam

[CanadianMamam]

51 minutes ago, NotQuiteMotY said:

Interesting fact (not saying this applies to your family): in at least one book on the history of midwifery, the authors note that both the mothers and the midwives they interviewed sometimes referred to an abortion- of the early gestation "patent pills for female complaints" variety, usually- as a miss or loss instead of an abortion. So there's a chance that a gap in pregnancies being written off as one or more losses in family history may not be the whole story.

Oh I am familiar and I know there was also early birth control but I made the guess based on both my grrat-grandmother's fertility and what I knew of her personality. Weird fact about my great-grandmother: she had boys in even years and girls in odd years, 4 of each. 

(I had boys in odd years, a girl in an even year but I only had 3 children so not as impressive).

[louisa05]

On 3/31/2022 at 1:25 PM, postscript said:

My working-class, immigrant grandparents married in the late 20s and had 6 children over a 15-year period. The first three came close together, followed by a multi-year gap. Then two more came close together, followed by another multi-year gap, followed by one straggler. They were very religious and had very little money. The family stories are (A) that my grandmother had at least one miscarriage during the gaps, or (B) that they refrained from sleeping together at times to keep their family size manageable, especially during the mid-30s. I suspect both stories are true. 

By the 1930s, diaphragms, spermicide and condoms were available in most of the U.S. 

My mom's brother was born in 1936. My grandparents then prevented for 7 years until they actually made a profit from farming and my aunt and my mom were born 14 months apart in 1943 and 44. 

My grandmother's brother and his wife married in 1932, had one child in 1935 and prevented after that as they could barely afford to feed her. Their second (and last) child was born in 1948. 

I interviewed both couples for an undergraduate thesis on agriculture in the Depression and both specifically told me they prevented, although they did not specify a method. It was not abstinence--that was clear. And this was in the rural midwest. My grandfather also told me at another time that throughout the 1920s and 30s, there was a woman in a nearby town who did illegal abortions for $50 each. 

 

[medimus]

This is a really interesting listen (the full thing is much longer than the written blurb) on contraception use in the 20th century in Ireland where catholic teachings had a massive influence. It was mainly abstention and withdrawal early on and then the various natural methods as they were developed and scientists learnt more about how fertility worked. All contraception was illegal until the end of the seventies and then only on prescription (yes including condoms) until the mid eighties. Information about contraception was also censored under various laws.

http://www.chomi.org/family-planning-in-ireland/ 

and a news clip of feminists illegally importing condoms on the train from Belfast in 1971: 

 

[Cam]

From what I read, it seems the religious insistence of having sex only for the purpose of recreation was a way to dignify the act of sexual intercourse. 

Sadly, women’s health surrounding pregnancy never seems to be a priority in any century. Even today, anti-abortionists fail to see legal abortion as a safe procedure and something that should be a personal decision. And quiverful quacks don’t seem to care much about what so many pregnancies do to a woman’s body.

Btw, in 2018, voters chose to legalize abortion in Ireland, albeit with some limitations. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Cam

[JDuggs]

15 minutes ago, Cam said:

From what I read, it seems the religious insistence of having sex only for the purpose of recreation was a way to dignify the act of sexual intercourse. 

I think you got autocorrected from procreation to recreation.

[medimus]

1 hour ago, Cam said:

From what I read, it seems the religious insistence of having sex only for the purpose of recreation was a way to dignify the act of sexual intercourse. 

Sadly, women’s health surrounding pregnancy never seems to be a priority in any century. Even today, anti-abortionists fail to see legal abortion as a safe procedure and something that should be a personal decision. And quiverful quacks don’t seem to care much about what so many pregnancies do to a woman’s body.

Btw, in 2018, voters chose to legalize abortion in Ireland, albeit with some limitations. 

Yes, my partner voted in that referendum!

 

[CaptainFunderpants]

3 hours ago, medimus said:

This is a really interesting listen (the full thing is much longer than the written blurb) on contraception use in the 20th century in Ireland where catholic teachings had a massive influence. It was mainly abstention and withdrawal early on and then the various natural methods as they were developed and scientists learnt more about how fertility worked. All contraception was illegal until the end of the seventies and then only on prescription (yes including condoms) until the mid eighties. Information about contraception was also censored under various laws.

http://www.chomi.org/family-planning-in-ireland/ 

and a news clip of feminists illegally importing condoms on the train from Belfast in 1971: 

 

The feminists sneaking in condoms is both amazing and pisses me off because WHY SHOULD WOMEN BE THE ONES HAVING TO WORRY. The men should be more careful with where their ejaculate goes. Women keep our eggs to ourselves 💁🏼‍♀️ we wouldn't have this whole procreative problem if it wasn't for men with their willy nillly sperm deposits.

I can't find it, but there was a great blog post written by an LDS woman about how women aren't the problem; men have the seed, therefore it's men's responsibility to make sure women don't get pregnant.

[Jigsaw3]

2 hours ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

I can't find it, but there was a great blog post written by an LDS woman about how women aren't the problem; men have the seed, therefore it's men's responsibility to make sure women don't get pregnant.

Here's the blog post (originally a twitter thread.)  I agree, it's great.

https://designmom.com/twitter-thread-abortion/

[Smash!]

3 hours ago, Cam said:

Sadly, women’s health surrounding pregnancy never seems to be a priority in any century

Unfortunately women‘s health in general isn‘t a priority, even today. For example endometriosis is very poorly understood as is migraines and all the autoimmune diseases that affect mostly women like ME/CFS (thanks to Long Covid there is finally at least some research but not nearly enough - but I digress). I could go on.

[Cam]

4 hours ago, JDuggs said:

I think you got autocorrected from procreation to recreation.

Haha! Oh my, yes, thanks for pointing that out!

I’ll clarify:

• From what I read, it seems the religious insistence of having sex only for the purpose of procreation was a way to dignify the act of sexual intercourse.

 

45 minutes ago, Smash! said:

Unfortunately women‘s health in general isn‘t a priority, even today. For example endometriosis is very poorly understood as is migraines and all the autoimmune diseases that affect mostly women like ME/CFS (thanks to Long Covid there is finally at least some research but not nearly enough - but I digress). I could go on.

Great point.

[Cam]

1 hour ago, Jigsaw3 said:

Here's the blog post (originally a twitter thread.)  I agree, it's great.

https://designmom.com/twitter-thread-abortion/

Wow. Such a powerful post! I bookmarked it for future reference.

[patsymae]

Sadly, women’s health surrounding pregnancy never seems to be a priority in any century

 

In the '60s I was told by a nun that I (age 15) was lying about being raped because it was conclusively proved that a woman can't get pregnant "unless she wants it." in 2012 US Rep Todd Akin (R-Missouri) said that " If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down." Not sure if they all meant an orgasm was necessary.

[GuineaPigCourtship]

7 minutes ago, patsymae said:

Not sure if they all meant an orgasm was necessary.

I am sure they didn't.

[SorenaJ]

In the UK, Boots didn’t start to sell condoms until 1960s. I wonder if married couples could get them on prescription. 

[Nothing if not critical]

8 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

In the UK, Boots didn’t start to sell condoms until 1960s. I wonder if married couples could get them on prescription. 

 No clue how accurate this is but there's a scene in Downton Abbey where Lady Mary sends her lady's maid Anna to get her a diaphragm from the pharmacy, because only a married woman can get one. No prescription needed. That would be late 1920s/early 1930s, I think?

[Idlewild]

Condoms were traditionally sold in mens barber shops in the UK, with the phrase ‘something for the weekend, sir?’ !!