Erin & Chad 6: Angling for a Vow Renewal Ceremony

[SunnySide]

1 hour ago, Satan'sFortress said:

What I don't fully understand about the anti adoption mentality is 1) what do they think should happen with these kids, then? If "good " Christian couples shouldn't adopt them because of their inherent sin, then who should adopt them? Or what else should be done with them? 2) If the kids' sins are so ireedemable that it makes them unadoptable by decent folk, wouldn't it be better to abort them? 3) Shouldn't a Christ like person be more concerned about the kids and their need for a home and family? 

Best I can figure is just another hypocritical idea from fundie life that goes like this: 

 

 Fundies: abortion is wrong! Just put the baby up for adoption.

Single unwed mother: has baby; “okay here’s that baby you wanted me to have, adopt him/her”

Fundies: (crickets chirping) oh what...no that baby is actually for other people to adopt. It has your premarital sex sin all ingrained in its soul, we don’t want THAT baby. Try the regular heathen folk in society at large.
 

Single unwed mother: hey I’m really stressed out. My pregnancy was really hard, my medical bills are astronomical and can you just give this baby a good home, I surely can’t right now. You wanted me to keep this baby after all. Help provide for it.

 

Fundies: well you shouldn’t have had sex in the first place. Maybe one of those heathen “normal” families will take your baby we believe carries your sin. We have our 27 sinless children to care for.

crickets continue to chirp.

 

I would imagine it’s similar hypocritical blather like this they trot out if really pushed to explain their idiotic beliefs.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Some fundies are actually super into adoption. Above Rubies pushed international adoption hard in the early 2000s and tons of fundies adopted in order to Play white savior to a bunch of kids from Overseas. I would prefer fundies not adopt just to play white savior. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

21 hours ago, BernRul said:

I'm the same way. I know it's taboo, but I don't feel sorry for Erin. The Bates (and Duggars) have always been irresponsible with their fertility/put their health at risk with their pregnancies. And they've repeatedly flaunted Covid restrictions. As someone who is 8 months pregnant, their total disregard for this despite their pro-life stance sickens me. And as someone who has lost a father-in-law and grandfather-in-law to Covid, they're lucky no one's died. 

I'm also happy that they very likely won't have any more children. There I said it. I'm already bummed that Jessa is expecting #4 and that so far all of the Bates seem to be all in the Quiverfull mindset. I wish Erin had come to the conclusion herself that she should stop at 4. I would have rather she didn't have to suffer so much in order to stop at 4. But I can't pretend I don't approve of the results.

Erin had a clotting disorder and multiple premature births. They were playing with fire by pushing her body to have so many children in quick succession. The writing was on the wall that this wouldn't end well; at least no baby had to die in the process.

Kelly Jo's mother lost her husband to COVID and almost died herself. Her mother had been married barely 4 years, but that's still a member of the extended family who did die.

[indianabones]

3 hours ago, SunnySide said:

I don’t often delve into the goings on of the Bates family. But holy crap am I understanding this correctly that some of them have had COVID-19 twice?!

Haha, one of my 2021 predictions was that Evan would be the first family member to come out with having contracted COVID for a second time. I didn't expect it to be Erin! I'm sure multiple Bateses have had it twice by now.

[Melissa1977]

@SunnySide many fundies are OK with adoption. Gothard cult wasn't, but anti-adoption groups and churches are not common. In fact, adoption has been pushed as a Christian action, with the result of many troubled adoptions, because they were adopting as a duty, not because they wanted the kid.

[Pecansforeveryone]

I agree with @Melissa1977 and @JermajestyDuggar that many, perhaps most fundies are perfectly fine with adoption. They are happy to use it as one more avenue to play white saviour. Bill Gothard is no longer in charge of ATI. Subsequent leaders may start promoting adoption as a means of godliness. Skirts only was an unbreakable, everlasting covenant until it wasn't. 

[Jackie3]

58 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I agree with @Melissa1977 and @JermajestyDuggar that many, perhaps most fundies are perfectly fine with adoption. They are happy to use it as one more avenue to play white saviour. 

There are many Black fundies.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Jackie3

[JermajestyDuggar]

It’s also a way to ensure one more kid is indoctrinated into their brand of fundie. 

[Jackie3]

7 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I may have the dates wrong, but I think that between the first and second covid-round (or after both of them) Erin went to a diner with Lawson and some Duggars in a massive place full of unmasked people.  Based on her IG, she had already had at least 1 covid, bleedings and surgery. So we have a woman, having been really sick of covid, having lost her fertility for it (or at least, they suspect so) yet socializing with no mask? And Lawson was still denying covid? 

I really cannot cope with that. They are extremely nuts and extremely dangerous.

Lawson denies covid exists? That's a new kind of stupid. I thought he pretends to be a medic or something. Doesn't that means he's spent time in ERs? The best way to decide whether covid is "real" is to spend some time in an ER waiting room, watching people struggle for breathe.

[Markie]

I think Gothards supported “others” to adopt children; the same way they supported “others” whose sons (not daughters) served in the military and “others” who work in the medical field. No way would they want their precious families doing any of these things but they pretended to admire them. 

[Melissa1977]

6 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

There are many Black fundies.

Really? When I see pictures of fundie events, the majority (if not all) of people are white.

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Really? When I see pictures of fundie events, the majority (if not all) of people are white.

I took it as the person just being argumentative. Yes, there are black fundies. Most fundies are white. But there are some black fundies. Obviously the previous poster was talking about white fundies having a white savior complex. So the comment made by the previous poster was unnecessary. 

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I took it as the person just being argumentative. Yes, there are black fundies. Most fundies are white. But there are some black fundies. Obviously the previous poster was talking about white fundies having a white savior complex. So the comment made by the previous poster was unnecessary. 

Yep. While there are fundies who aren't white, in the context of the conversation it only made sense to make a comment like that if someone was arguing for the sake of arguing. 

Anyone who has spent time on FJ probably has read at least one fundie adoption story that was a tragedy. There are so many of these stories. Which is why members here tend to not want fundies to adopt children. Fundies just by nature of their beliefs about life and children are going to tend to be neglectful and abusive when it comes to children,  especially children they adopt who are coming to them with trauma. Not all, of course,  but way, way too many. 

[Johannah]

9 hours ago, Markie said:

I think Gothards supported “others” to adopt children; the same way they supported “others” whose sons (not daughters) served in the military and “others” who work in the medical field. No way would they want their precious families doing any of these things but they pretended to admire them. 

If they think Gothardism is the “right,” Godly way to live, who do they think is supposed to be deployed overseas to defend the country, who will be the doctors who take care of them when they show up at the emergency room with no health insurance? It is such an inherently selfish and illogical approach. No contribution to or concern for society at large or how it should function. And yet, they don’t just keep to themselves either, but instead go out and proselytize in an attempt to convert others to their self-centered worldview. 

[tanba]

2 minutes ago, Johannah said:

If they think Gothardism is the “right,” Godly way to live, who do they think is supposed to be deployed overseas to defend the country, who will be the doctors who take care of them when they show up at the emergency room with no health insurance? It is such an inherently selfish and illogical approach. No contribution to or concern for society at large or how it should function. And yet, they don’t just keep to themselves either, but instead go out and proselytize in an attempt to convert others to their self-centered worldview. 

I guess in their view, if everyone followed gothardism, there wouldn’t be a need for any of that, as god would fix life or something?

[SassyPants]

42 minutes ago, tanba said:

I guess in their view, if everyone followed gothardism, there wouldn’t be a need for any of that, as god would fix life or something?

Since BG, the man, is a known pervert, everyone following his behaviors and beliefs would create a plethora of problems, and not many of them positive.

[Jackie3]

8 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Really? When I see pictures of fundie events, the majority (if not all) of people are white.

There are Christian fundamentalist churches around the world, including African countries. There are Asian fundy churches--I have an Asian friend who attends such a church. If you've traveled in the Midwest, you'd see there are plenty of primarily Black fundamentalist churches here.

You are looking at pictures of a few events attended by a few fundy families that we follow. Sadly,  pictures of the Big Sandy conference doesn't tell the whole story. Fundamentalist is around the world. Churches that espouse misogyny, homophobia, etc attract certain personalities, regardless of race.

[Jackie3]

5 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Yep. While there are fundies who aren't white, in the context of the conversation it only made sense to make a comment like that if someone was arguing for the sake of arguing. 

I think the issue of race in fundamentalism is extremely important.

Why do we focus only on the white families (or make statements implying it's only white families)? What's that about? What about the damage the fundamentalism is doing to the BIPOC community? 

Those who want to "move on" from this issue worry me. They seem to want to focus on the damage to white kids, while ignoring what's happening to nonwhite children in the US and around the world. These children are also forced to conform to rigid gender roles and face harsh physical "correction."

Perhaps  some would rather not deal with or face this issue. Perhaps it's more about looking at pictures of pretty Bates kids and grandkids, and speculating on baby names. But there is a broader issue for those willing to address it. When we assume it's only white families in fundamentalism (a statement someone just posted!!), we are ignoring the BIPOC children being damaged these extreme religious organizations.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Jackie3

[formergothardite]

26 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

I think the issue of race in fundamentalism is extremely important.

Why do we focus only on the white families (or make statements implying it's only white families)? What's that about? What about the damage the fundamentalism is doing to the BIPOC community? 

Those who want to "move on" from this issue worry me. They seem to want to focus on the damage to white kids, while ignoring what's happening to nonwhite children in the US and around the world. These children are also forced to conform to rigid gender roles and face harsh physical "correction."

Perhaps  some would rather not deal with or face this issue. Perhaps it's more about looking at pictures of pretty Bates kids and grandkids, and speculating on baby names. But there is a broader issue for those willing to address it. When we assume it's only white families in fundamentalism (a statement someone just posted!!), we are ignoring the BIPOC children being damaged these extreme religious organizations.

If you are this passionate about it my suggestion is to go start a thread in quiver full of snark about the non white fundies you feel like need more attention. There are lots of types of fundies that aren’t often discussed and since this appears to be a subject you feel strongly needs attention a whole thread devoted to it will do a better job of that than some comments in a subforum lots of members will never see. 

In the context of this particular thread and these particular types of fundies they are predominantly white and there has been in the last decade or so a trend that is a dangerous white savior complex in regards to adopting children and this complex has lead to the abuse and death of adopted children. This is what is being discussed, jumping in with a whataboutism makes it look like you aren’t interested in discussing the very real dangers of white mostly American fundies adopting children. 

[freethemall]

20 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I agree with @Melissa1977 and @JermajestyDuggar that many, perhaps most fundies are perfectly fine with adoption. They are happy to use it as one more avenue to play white saviour. Bill Gothard is no longer in charge of ATI. Subsequent leaders may start promoting adoption as a means of godliness. Skirts only was an unbreakable, everlasting covenant until it wasn't. 

Is anyone here currently following Courtney Collingsworth Metz? She and her husband are currently in Thailand finalizing their adoption of a baby boy. Her Instagram has interesting insight into fundie adoption processes, from a very long reveal video and an "adoption shower " to having to follow strict COVID measures in Thailand and discussing bringing their new son on tour with the family band. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

10 minutes ago, freethemall said:

Is anyone here currently following Courtney Collingsworth Metz? She and her husband are currently in Thailand finalizing their adoption of a baby boy. Her Instagram has interesting insight into fundie adoption processes, from a very long reveal video and an "adoption shower " to having to follow strict COVID measures in Thailand and discussing bringing their new son on tour with the family band. 

Yes, I have! I absolutely can’t stand the Collingsworths. They remind me of the Bairds (Girl Defined). They are richer than most fundies and come off as smug and entitled snobs. However I will say there are a couple of positives. One is that they have no bio kids. This is their first experience in parenting and hopefully that means they won’t compare an adopted child’s behavior to a bio child’s behavior. They will actually be able to give him a lot of attention because they don’t have 7 other kids at home. And of course they have the money to feed and clothe him. So that’s a plus. But I have a strong suspicion they will try to white wash him into their very white family. And of course all the fundie beliefs they will push on him really sucks. 

[kmachete14]

If you are in NYC, you will see many POC fundies standing on the subway trying to recruit for Jehovah's Witness or other fundie charismatic churches (Apostolic or Baptist denominations). The difference is that so far, no family has had a big TV show to draw attention to them. In addition, this TV group (Duggar Bates and their adjacent) seem to not mix with these POC fundies, perhaps due to geography, racism, etc. 

[FrumpyAtheist]

I agree with what @Jackie3 is getting at, which is a general squeamishness in America right now about criticizing or analyzing negative aspects of BIPOC culture in the U.S. or around the world. Yes, many Americans who are generally critical of religious zealotry, human rights abuses, and sexist treatment of women are reluctant to critique these in foreign cultures.

But I agree with previous posters that Free Jinger really just focuses on a subset of American fundies, and they are mostly white. The white savior issue is a massive problem along the white fundies we focus on. That doesn't mean there aren't problems with religious fundamentalism elsewhere, but I get the feeling most of us here don't feel as knowledgeable about those issues and ready to snark on them.

[formergothardite]

Our discussions do tend to stick to a particular sub set of fundies, especially in a section like this. AQFS has more discussions on various fundie groups but it all relies on someone starting a thread.If someone knows of a fundie group that they think need more attention then the most simple answer is to start a thread. 

But the white savior attitude and fundies adopting children is an actual problem that is relevant tp this particular thread and the idea that this fundie couple might adopt. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by formergothardite

[Audrey2]

I think being on television is only one aspect that brings a fundie family to FreeJinger's attention. Remember, we found JRod and others through social media. I think we would be happy to discuss any fundies who have a strong social media presence.