American Missionary Killed by Indigenous Tribe

[anjulibai]

4 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I find "Satan's last stronghold" (reportedly Chau's definition of the North Sentinel island) both particularly infuriating and also hilarious. Very snarkworthy.

It almost deserves to be a post title. Maybe "leaving Satan's last stonghold the hell alone".

It's awful, but you are right that's very snarkworthy. This guy was just stupid and nuts. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by anjulibai

[Briefly]

22 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

They don't have any proof other than the fishermen's word, but if someone goes to an island where the people are known to kill everyone who gets close the most likely scenario is that those people killed him. And we know from his own words that he planned to make contact.

I have no doubt about his actions on the island the first time, I was just thinking about the fishermen and their stories.  They knew it was a forbidden area, that's really the only thing that made me wonder about that. We know he paid them to take him to the island.  I think the story they told about seeing his body is probably true.

22 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

As I’ve been thinking about this more, not only was he inconsiderate of the well-being of the tribe but he wasn’t being considerate of his parents. He knew if he died there, and it sounds like he believed he would as the last journal he wrote reads like a suicide letter, he knew his body would not have a realistic chance at being recovered. He knew that if he died, he’d be giving his parents even more misery in their grief by not having the closure of burying his body. His journals read as though he was so self-focused and arrogant that it blinded him from rational thought. He even wrote that he couldn’t understand why they are “so angry even though I’ve been so nice to them” and that “They didn’t accept me at first”. I am even more convinced that this was someone not “dealing with a full deck”. I am convinced he thought that he could win them over, being blinded by his own ego, and figured he would die trying. At best, be better than Jim Elliot and at worst, he wanted that same fame even though he knew it meant he’d die just like him. His letters come off as if he thought they’d end up in a book one day. He comes across as someone who had a grandiose idea of himself and was blinded by narcissistic delusion. 

He even wrote of them “laughing” at him as they threw spears at him & into his Bible saying, “they were laughing at me so they must have been saying something bad about me” and said they were beating drums while a “leader got up on the tallest rock wearing a white crown and yelled at me”. He had A LOT of nerve to go back. This is someone that HAD to have a pathological reason to have a complete absence of fear. 

I think you make very good points.  He did at the very least sound arrogant, but he could well have been narcissistic.  I was thinking that he was extremely naive, based on his apparent belief that they would automatically accept him.  Like he thought that they would revere him as a prophet for example. Then when that didn't happen, he was surprised and still planned to go back and try again.

[Black Aliss]

For those who share my dark sense of humor

Spoiler

 

[nelliebelle1197]

On 11/22/2018 at 9:25 AM, LilMissMetaphor said:

This isn't cut and dried, though. There's plenty of ethical/moral/legal questions raised by this situation.  Of course, the guy should have known better.  You could even argue (and people are) that he deserved it.  But the tribe doesn't know it is protected by the law of the land and that people shouldn't come there.  They're just like, get off my island! Theoretically, what if these people were in a different location that was more accessible and someone (say a child for the sake of argument, not aware of "US law" per se, stumbled into their area and was shot with arrows? That wouldn't be okay.  People would just say it was a terrible accident.  Uh, well, but it's not actually okay to shoot others with arrows, even if they are protecting their way of life and just want to be left alone.  Does being special and unique and genetically fragile mean we have the right to kill others to keep them away from us? 

I don't want an entire tribe to die of germs because someone was stupid, either.  But we can't exchange anything, bad or good, any knowledge, any language, anything preservable.  They are just going to die of natural causes soon with very little known about them until after their deaths.  Is that the ideal situation?   

Um, there is not a single ethical/moral/legal question raised by this. The "missionary" broke the law, put an entire way of life and an entire society at risk and that's it. Colonialism and cultural imperialism are not okay. Period.

21 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

Oh FFS.   I am not interested in talking about the actual fucktard who visited the island, but in the surrounding circumstances, which some of the other posters have been engaging in dialogue with me about, thankfully.  If nuance isn't your thing, then maybe move along. 

I don't see a hella lot of nuance in your thinking. I am mostly seeing a colonial mindset that appears to see these people and their culture as a zoo exhibit.

[formergothardite]

Am I the only one who wondered if Wesco really said all those deep thought that are now being attributed to him. From the blog I read before they wiped it he didn't seem to write stuff like that, it was more "look how many people we can cram in a large van" sort of stuff. 

I think they are trying to turn him into a Jim Elliot whose quotes are now very well known in Christian circles. 

[Rachel333]

3 hours ago, keepercjr said:

It seems from this part that he called them all Jarawa?   Also sometimes North Sentinel people further in the page.  He is clear he was on Sentinel island though and the text continues about Sentinel Island.  Sentinel is talked about on the previous page as well.  

That definitely might be the case. That same twitter user has since acknowledged the source and said he thinks it's ambiguous and might not be Sentinelese people, but that he still thinks Portman was talking about kidnapping Sentinelese. Portman does distinguish between Sentinelese and Jarawa, but it seems like he considered the Sentinelese a subset of the Jarawa.

There's also this, which shows that even Portman realized the harm contact does:

[fundiefan]

2 hours ago, Pammy said:

I think that depends on whether ‘you’ think of Jesus as a legitimate benefit for humans in general.

 

I do not, And, I'd bet my own life on the fact that "untouched/uncontacted" feel the same way.

One can try to help others in Jesus's name. Cool. But - and this is a huge but - - as a condition, or motive - I think not. 

What humans beings need to exist is food, water and shelter. Humans need a means to an end. 

Not one human being "needs" religion, in any way, shape or form to survive. No living being "needs" to believe in Jesus to survive. Jesus, if he exists, has proven that time and time again. 

If you believe that humans need clean water, nutritious food and shelter from the elements, Yay! you! 

The ways are many. And, duh, people who do help others have a good feeling about it and are proud of themselves. But, they haven't won rewards in heaven or anywhere else. 

A person's religion, or lack thereof, hasn't a damn thing to do with their need here and now. 

If your belief in your Jesus is so overpowering that you can't/won't/don't see any other need, motive or force - it's your problem, not the problem of the one(s) you are trying to "save". 

So, if you sincerely believe that you can go off and "save" people because of what YOUR religion is, you are doing it wrong. 

People live an die without religion. No person has ever survived on religion. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by fundiefan

[Rachel333]

The problem is that Evangelicals really believe that people are doomed to an eternity of torture if they die non-Christians. If you truly believe that, anything you can do to convert people would be better than leaving them to die and go to Hell. Most the arguments that people are making about the importance of not trying to force contact are useless to the people who need to hear those arguments the most. The biggest issue is the core belief that leads to people deciding to become missionaries and unless that is addressed other arguments against missions are going to be unconvincing to the people who actually need to be convinced.

[Lisafer]

14 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

The problem is that Evangelicals really believe that people are doomed to an eternity of torture if they die non-Christians. If you truly believe that, anything you can do to convert people would be better than leaving them to die and go to Hell. Most the arguments that people are making about the importance of not trying to force contact are useless to the people who need to hear those arguments the most. The biggest issue is the core belief that leads to people deciding to become missionaries and unless that is addressed other arguments against missions are going to be unconvincing to the people who actually need to be convinced.

Thank you for explaining this so succinctly! When I grew up fundie, there was an overwhelming guilt that came with not sharing the gospel "enough." Saving people from hell for the glory of god was seen as the ultimate purpose of the Christian life. 

In my experience with preachers and missionaries: some seem to be in it more for their own ego than anything else, and some are well-meaning but (I would argue) misguided. The profession does seem to attract the arrogant (like politics, haha). 

Having good intentions absolutely does not excuse harmful behavior. I just wanted to point out that different people have different motives for "evangelizing." I have a family member who was a missionary for years, and even though I disagree with his proselytizing, I truly don't think he had self-aggrandizing motives. He is quite humble and able to laugh at himself, and I think would be quite distressed at the thought of causing harm to others. Needless to say, he would never have broken the law and endangered people's lives like Chau did. 

[Pammy]

1 hour ago, fundiefan said:

I do not, And, I'd bet my own life on the fact that "untouched/uncontacted" feel the same way.

One can try to help others in Jesus's name. Cool. But - and this is a huge but - - as a condition, or motive - I think not. 

What humans beings need to exist is food, water and shelter. Humans need a means to an end. 

Not one human being "needs" religion, in any way, shape or form to survive. No living being "needs" to believe in Jesus to survive. Jesus, if he exists, has proven that time and time again. 

If you believe that humans need clean water, nutritious food and shelter from the elements, Yay! you! 

The ways are many. And, duh, people who do help others have a good feeling about it and are proud of themselves. But, they haven't won rewards in heaven or anywhere else. 

A person's religion, or lack thereof, hasn't a damn thing to do with their need here and now. 

If your belief in your Jesus is so overpowering that you can't/won't/don't see any other need, motive or force - it's your problem, not the problem of the one(s) you are trying to "save". 

So, if you sincerely believe that you can go off and "save" people because of what YOUR religion is, you are doing it wrong. 

People live an die without religion. No person has ever survived on religion. 

I was only commenting on whether it requires a “massive ego” to try to change people’s lives — or not.

To clarify; I believe that the same average-sized ego is required for both missions work and relief work. I don’t think they are equivalent work — I just don’t think that ego-size is a significant factor in differentiating between them.

As for the rest, I’m speculating towards what I think might be a more substantive set of differences between missions workers and international aid workers.

I assume the “you” in your post is referring to a generic person who holds the ideas you ascribe to “them” — because it sure isn’t me. I hope I have never given reason for people to assume things like that about me.

[dripcurl]

Apologies if this has been linked already, but I stumbled upon it when researching Mat Staver, the evangelical lawyer who co-wrote Kim Davis’ book. He had a lot to say about John Chau’s “matyring”

 

https://www.covenantjourney.org/details/john-allen-chau

 

Staver runs the Liberty Counsel, which apparently was previously headed by the guy who made Indian Jones: Temple of Doom (?) Anyway, Liberty Counsel seemed to promote Covenant Journey back in 2017. It is an organization that networks with Christian schools to send young adults to Israel. Johm Chau went on one of these journeys while attending ORU. Of course, this Staver guy slants the entire situation towards prosecuting the Sentinese tribe.

 

I have only glanced at this thread over the past couple of days, and of course I find the entire situation deeply disturbing for multiple reasons. I think one FJer remarked it seemed an elaborate suicide and honestly it seems like it to me too. I have found a lot of soundbytes regarding the death of Chau via Instagram, intertwined with the discussion of colonialism (timely, since Thanksgiving was this week) and of course there has been much comparison to Jim Elliot.

 

Growing up Evangelical, I learned to hail Jim and Elisabeth Elliot as heroes. I have not thought about them in years, but this unfortunate situation with Chau stirred many thoughts about my faith within me. I do not believe remote tribes need the Gospel at all, and I have believed this for a long time. That being said, the fact that Chau ventured on this alone shows that he had no intention of sharing the Gospel due to the language barrier, and extreme danger. He would have had to know that he was going to die. I think many fundies know this deep down, which is why it is sickening that so many are turning this into a witch hunt for the tribe. It is heartbreaking Chau died, but I think he intentionally did so.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by dripcurl

[SweetLaurel]

9 hours ago, fundiefan said:

 

 

People live an die without religion. No person has ever survived on religion. 

Don't tell Lori Alexander this.  Her entire 'mission' is to tell women if they only 'loved God and His Perfect Ways'  manna and money and organic butter will rain from the sky upon their heads.   

[luv2laugh]

I had another thought:

IF Chau was suicidal perhaps this would have been the only way for him to do it and believe everyone would talk about him being in Heaven & giving his life up to share Jesus rather than other fundies saying it was a selfish act that he could possibly be in hell for. Perhaps Chau felt he had nothing to live for and was willing to risk it all for Jesus.

All of his friends say that Chau knew the risks, knew it was illegal and knew the chance of death was high.

Edited November 24, 2018 by luv2laugh

[nastyhobbitses]

11 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Am I the only one who wondered if Wesco really said all those deep thought that are now being attributed to him. From the blog I read before they wiped it he didn't seem to write stuff like that, it was more "look how many people we can cram in a large van" sort of stuff. 

I think they are trying to turn him into a Jim Elliot whose quotes are now very well known in Christian circles. 

Or Fundie Lei Feng. 

For those not in the know, Lei Feng was (allegedly) a soldier in the People's Liberation Army soon after the Communists took over China, and he died after he got crushed to death by a telephone pole. He oh-so-conveniently had written a diary that was oh-so-conveniently filled with effusive praise of Chairman Mao and cogent proverbs about being a good upstanding Communist. While a guy named Lei Feng probably existed, it's doubtful that the diary is anything more than completely fabricated propaganda, and even if he was a pretty alright dude (if he even existed, and some doubt that he did), he likely wasn't the perfectly virtuous saintly figure the CCP made him out to be. Not a bad person as far as anyone can tell, but not Maoist Jesus. 

[DangerNoodle]

That Covenant Journey article was pathetic. They are trying to imply that going to the island was legal. If it was legal then why did the fishermen get arrested? Why did they go at night to hide from the Coast Guard?

They don't even address the pathogens issue. 

 

They are calling for the arrest of people who don't know anything about India's laws. Nobody can communicate with them. And how will they prove exactly who did it? 

[fundiefan]

10 hours ago, Pammy said:

I assume the “you” in your post is referring to a generic person who holds the ideas you ascribe to “them” — because it sure isn’t me. I hope I have never given reason for people to assume things like that about me.

Yes, it was a generic "you" reference. I dd not mean to sound like I was assuming or implying anything about you personally.

I was cranky and not watching my words. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

17 hours ago, keepercjr said:

It seems from this part that he called them all Jarawa?   Also sometimes North Sentinel people further in the page.  He is clear he was on Sentinel island though and the text continues about Sentinel Island.  Sentinel is talked about on the previous page as well.  

Well, it seems clear that he was on Sentinel island, but also that, not knowing or not bothering to know that they are different people, he calls the Sentinelese Jarawa. After all, to his eyes they were one and the same.

[gustava]

I retired to a rural area where, if I weren't related to half the population, I'd be considered an outsider because I wan't born and raised there.  Not a whole lot different from the Sentilese in some ways.

[samurai_sarah]

4 hours ago, DangerNoodle said:

(snip)

They are calling for the arrest of people who don't know anything about India's laws. Nobody can communicate with them. And how will they prove exactly who did it?  

I keep on wondering about that too! HOW?

In my tribe it is customary to slam the door in people's faces, if someone shows up and starts talking at you in a language you don't understand. So what if it turns out to be the Greek police? Don't understand the language, don't recognise their authority over me, don't know what they want from me, and what are they doing on my doorstep?

The people of Sentinel island have slammed the door time and again. An investigation is impossible, not least of all due to cultural and medical concerns, but because India would have to break her own laws to investigate.

Spoilered, because long and not everyone wants to read a long thing about sovereign nations and escaped hamsters - the hamsters have nothing to do with the people of Sentinel Island, but somehow...

Spoiler

India has made it abundantly clear that Sentinel island is off limits. While part of Indian territory, for the intents and purposes of its inhabitants, it is sovereign territory. The people of Sentinel island have made it so. India recognises and protects that status. One could argue that India is nothing more than a legal steward for an otherwise sovereign nation.

The tiny European state of San Marino is a sovereign nation within the Italian state. While the people are definitely contacted, Italy usually represents them and their interests. Really, it's so small that if they had to keep an embassy in every state in the world, the entire place would be guarded by a runaway hamster and two bewildered goldfish. Hyperbole, obviously, BUT the situation of Sentinel island isn't that different. Only, even the most generous of estimates leave San Marino's inhabitants at a higher number than the Sentinel island.

If we think of them as a sovereign people, rather than citizens of India, who are under Indian stewardship, then what they did to Chau was protecting their borders. They warned him twice not to breach their borders, and then shot to kill.

The people of Sentinel island clearly don't care for contact, and seem to consider themselves a sovereign people. That is a concept that we recognise, which likely - since we know so little- has no meaning to them. It goes back to my initial scenario of the Greek police showing up on my doorstep.

Don't know who you are, don't understand a word, you're annoying me, go away. Oh great, now I have the flu, so next time one of you guys shows up in your weird tribal costume, I won't even bother opening the door! Being harassed by random strangers who give me the flu isn't in my interest! GO AWAY!

(With my apologies to the people of San Marino. You probably take good care of your pets, but come on, trying to catch a really determined hamster leads to having to remodel the kitchen. Ask my parents! Also, we found Josephine, but it was the one and only time I heard mum swear, when she suggested that we "just leave the effing hamster to effing die". I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist the mental image of Josephine guarding an empty San Marino!)

 

 

[Black Aliss]

12 hours ago, dripcurl said:

Growing up Evangelical, I learned to hail Jim and Elisabeth Elliot as heroes. I have not thought about them in years, but this unfortunate situation with Chau stirred many thoughts about my faith within me. I do not believe remote tribes need the Gospel at all, and I have believed this for a long time. That being said, the fact that Chau ventured on this alone shows that he had no intention of sharing the Gospel due to the language barrier, and extreme danger.

 

This. I get that he couldn't find an interpreter to go with him but why on earth would he think that this remote tribe would respond to him yelling at them in English and when they clearly did not, he used the few words he knew in Xhosa. Because he thought all dark-skinned people talk alike? No, he was bent on becoming a martyr, nothing more.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Black Aliss
riffles

[Glasgowghirl]

The more I read about him the less sympathy I have for him. He had people warning him long before he went about how dangerous it was and after he travelled he was again warned about the dangers and how it was illegal.

[Carol]

This is religious zealotry run amok and the reason I think religious zealots are often mentally ill. His friends and family knew of his desire to visit this island and convert the inhabitants to christianity.  They tried to talk him out of it.  How it is that he wasn't considered a danger to himself, let alone all the islanders?  Sectioning him would have been the merciful thing to do until he was able to understand his was a suicide mission.

Sorry, but all this god has a plan baloney is just that...baloney. John Chau had a plan and it killed him.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Carol

[Lisafer]

Oh look, a mission organization who actually wants to claim this guy as one of their own: https://allnations.us/blog/    

I thought about commenting on the article, but figured it would never see the light of day.

Oh, and I meant to put "mission organization" in parentheses, since they don't seem to actually care about the wellbeing of other people...

[laPapessaGiovanna]

23 minutes ago, Black Aliss said:

This. I get that he couldn't find an interpreter to go with him but why on earth would he think that this remote tribe would respond to him yelling at them in English and when they clearly did not, he used the few words he knew in Xhosa. Because he thought all dark-skinned people talk alike? No, he was bent on becoming a martyr, nothing more.

Whaaat? don't all black people talk the same language? I am shocked, shocked I tell you!

This takes the stupidity cake. Wtf?

[Soulhuntress]

3 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

This. I get that he couldn't find an interpreter to go with him but why on earth would he think that this remote tribe would respond to him yelling at them in English and when they clearly did not, he used the few words he knew in Xhosa. Because he thought all dark-skinned people talk alike? No, he was bent on becoming a martyr, nothing more.

Um if he actually was not a walking arrow holder, how in the nine hells did he expect to share anything with these folks who do not understand the fool?   It is in fact like standing in the parking lot of WalMart screaming in Sanskrit.  

Edited November 25, 2018 by Soulhuntress