American Missionary Killed by Indigenous Tribe

[HurricaneBells]

5 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

They likely didn’t even know he was Christian.

They wouldn't know what a christian is to begin with. The arrogance of this guy is astounding and sorry, I am honestly a very nice caring and empathetic person 99% of the time but my first thought was well you deserved it and I am going to stick with it. He had no fucking right to be there and he knew it and he suffered the consequences for his stupidity and arrogance. I hope they arent holding onto his body though, they wouldn't even comprehend the danger of doing so. Its a tiny group too, i think less then 40 in total, it would not take much to wipe them out.

I am kind of surprised the fundies arent all over this... persecution and all that shit

Edited November 22, 2018 by HurricaneBells
add a thought

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, luv2laugh said:

I don’t support death penalty.

 

Actually, neither do I.

In the US, the death penalty is an incredibly expensive, often greatly delayed form of punishment that probably deters almost no one from committing the crimes where it's a penalty. It might provide justice of sorts for friends or relatives of victims but it's hard to see it otherwise as any kind of benefit to society.

In the case of this asshat, it's not so much that he deserved to die. Rather, I'm not  sorry about his death given his wanton & self-centered push to get on that island. IMO, his behavior was criminal, regardless of his claim to be a Christian.  

[SecularMusic]

Of course he will be regarded as a martyr instead of a fool. They'll say he gave his life to deliver the gospel to savages.

 

I don't understand Americans who go to foreign countries and expect US freedoms and laws to protect them, whether missionaries or rich kids backpacking through war zones or studying in communist countries.

[RainbowSky]

3 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

Yes, he was but I didn’t believe in death penalty for Ted Bundy because I don’t support death penalty.

I admit when I am wrong. This past year, I have been sensitive to death and when I heard he died I thought “idiot must have been crazy” but I still couldn’t help feeling sympathetic for him and his family, spending Thanksgiving grieving the death of their son. I admit that I (naively) didn’t even realize at first that he put the tribe at risk for bringing over pathogens that they’re not immune to. I now read how he lied and jumped through illegal hoops to get there.

I am mad and furious that Christian media is painting him out to be a martyr when he committed a crime and unknowingly or not may have committed genocide.

If they're celebrating Thanksgiving, at least they're celebrating people doing the same thing this dude started out to do.

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by RainbowSky

[AliceInFundyland]

The moral and ethical quandaries of this situation are an extreme. I think I need to retun to it after the holiday.

[nastyhobbitses]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

I feel bad for his family, but he KNEW the laws and was fully capable of understanding the reasons why the Indian government does not allow people to contact the Sentinelese. And he thought that he was a special snowflake that wouldn't AT BEST commit cultural genocide (and I'm sure you'd understand why the Indian government might be more than a little touchy about that sort of thing) and very, very likely commit actual genocide because of the diseases he could spread. He was an arrogant idiot and this is nothing more than a well-deserved Darwin Award. 

[acheronbeach]

I pity this young man's fate.  He did not deserve to die.  However, that doesn't mean that his death wasn't the obvious outcome of this - the only logical or realistic outcome, when those Islanders were faced with his potentially lethal presence.  

I think we've all encountered the person who thinks their culture is so superior that they could potentially destroy another; it's another thing entirely to knowingly step into a place knowing that you will cause their deaths.  What I wonder is what sort of background creates such a cold-blooded religious zealot?  Was it family, friends, schooling that led him to care so little about the potential to kill a whole society of people - men, women, children - from what would surely be painful diseases that they couldn't understand or get treatment for?  

It's an incomprehensible form of cruelty.  And I think that's why a lot of us feel so little sympathy here.  He was a very dangerous man.  

[feministxtian]

I don't feel sorry for him at all. He was an arrogant little evangelical snit who thought that he had to bring God to the natives. How the fuck could he know if they had their own version of God? He KNEW damn good and well that place was off limits and he did it anyway. 

Look, I am a Christian but I'm one of those "religion is like a penis" people. Yes, you have one but don't be bringing it out whenever it suits you. He lied about the visa, he KNEW goddamn good and well what would happen. He couldn't communicate with them and he went anyway? What an idiot. 

Sorry...no empathy or sympathy from me for him OR his family...especially at a holiday that celebrates genocide. 

[ViolaSebastian]

Apparently his family has publicly forgiven the tribesmen who killed him. Not enough eye rolls in the world for that one. 

Theyve also arrested seven fisherman who helped him get to the island, as well as a friend of his that helped organize this debacle. 

https://www.pressrepublican.com/cnhi_network/the-latest-relatives-forgive-tribesmen-who-killed-american/article_61f09c34-51bd-5ace-91bf-fba5b717fef8.html

[Toothfairy]

3 hours ago, SecularMusic said:

Of course he will be regarded as a martyr instead of a fool. They'll say he gave his life to deliver the gospel to savages.

 

I don't understand Americans who go to foreign countries and expect US freedoms and laws to protect them, whether missionaries or rich kids backpacking through war zones or studying in communist countries.

This. They think they can do whatever they want. Especially rich white kids. A white man went to North Korea and broke some laws. He was trying to steal a painting. He was sentenced to hard labor and was abused. 

[nastyhobbitses]

3 hours ago, SecularMusic said:

I don't understand Americans who go to foreign countries and expect US freedoms and laws to protect them, whether missionaries or rich kids backpacking through war zones or studying in communist countries.

"Even though I rant about eebil foreigners coming to my country and terkin' the jerbs and not immediately assimilating to my culture, I'm going to go to a foreign country, commit visa fraud (lying about purpose of visit, overstaying, illegally working), routinely disrespect their cultural norms, refuse to learn a word of the local language unless I think their profanities are funny (in which case I will drunkenly scream obscenities in a horrendous accent at random passersby), and flagrantly and intentionally break the law and then cry persecution and cost untold amounts of consular agents' time and taxpayers' money when I actually suffer legal consequences for my actions. Ain't I a peach?"

I've been an on-and-off expat since college and I feel mortified to be an American, half because of Trump and half because of these assholes. 

[livinglongerthanyou]

7 hours ago, DangerNoodle said:

His Wikipedia entry. Never heard of a wilderness EMT.

A wilderness EMT is a person who has completed the requirements for EMT I and then received training in applying EMT skills in the wilderness setting. It is a rigorous course.

Here is a statement from a missionary organization John was connected with. He had been talking about this trip since high school. It is tragic nobody stepped in to stop him.

[formergothardite]

9 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

I don’t support death penalty.

I don't support it either. 

The death penalty is when there are other options and people choose to kill someone because of revenge, an eye for an eye sort of thing. In this situation the only way the tribe could protect themselves is to kill him. It does not seem they had any other options to get him to leave them alone. 

ETA: I can't have pity for someone who went into a situation with his goal being cultural genocide but knowing he might commit actual genocide and the very people whose culture and lives he had no concern for killed him protecting themselves. I'm sure this is difficult for his family and I can have sympathy for them, but for the man who was okay committing genocide? Not a bit. 

Edited November 22, 2018 by formergothardite

[LilMissMetaphor]

15 hours ago, fundiefan said:

They are protected and to be left alone, by the law of the land....They acted to protect themselves, their island, the way of life and their lives. Because of who they are, it is against the law to be within 3 miles of the island. They have a right to refuse interaction with other people, and Indian law gives them that right.

This isn't cut and dried, though. There's plenty of ethical/moral/legal questions raised by this situation.  Of course, the guy should have known better.  You could even argue (and people are) that he deserved it.  But the tribe doesn't know it is protected by the law of the land and that people shouldn't come there.  They're just like, get off my island! Theoretically, what if these people were in a different location that was more accessible and someone (say a child for the sake of argument, not aware of "US law" per se, stumbled into their area and was shot with arrows? That wouldn't be okay.  People would just say it was a terrible accident.  Uh, well, but it's not actually okay to shoot others with arrows, even if they are protecting their way of life and just want to be left alone.  Does being special and unique and genetically fragile mean we have the right to kill others to keep them away from us? 

I don't want an entire tribe to die of germs because someone was stupid, either.  But we can't exchange anything, bad or good, any knowledge, any language, anything preservable.  They are just going to die of natural causes soon with very little known about them until after their deaths.  Is that the ideal situation?   

[SamiKatz]

William Stark, ICC's regional manager, paid tribute to Chau and condemned his killing.

'We here at International Christian Concern are extremely concerned by the reports of an American missionary being murdered in India's Andaman and Nicobar Islands. 

'Our thoughts and prayers go out to both John's family and friends. A full investigation must be launched in this this murder and those responsible must be brought to justice. India must take steps to counter the growing wave of intolerance and violence.' 

Isn't going to an isolated island, where the people are protected from outsiders in order to protect their lives and lifestyle, kind of the definition of intolerance?

I have empathy for this guy (and  his family), and certainly don't wish death on him but this whole statement by the ICC manager kind of reeks of entitlement.

[CTRLZero]

8 minutes ago, SamiKatz said:

Isn't going to an isolated island, where the people are protected from outsiders in order to protect their lives and lifestyle, kind of the definition of intolerance?

I think so.  In terms ICC might better understand - he [knowingly] trespassed; they stood their ground.   There was just no common sense going on here on the part of the so-called missionary, which is not unusual based on some of the fundies we follow here.  So tragic.  So preventable.

[samurai_sarah]

5 hours ago, SamiKatz said:

(snip)

'Our thoughts and prayers go out to both John's family and friends. A full investigation must be launched in this this murder and those responsible must be brought to justice. India must take steps to counter the growing wave of intolerance and violence.'  (snip)

(Agree with you, just want to answer to this bit of utter rubbish from ICC)

Just how does he imagine this investigation to take place? Purely practical question. The islanders are known to have killed the occasional shipwrecked fisherman, and to shoot volleys of arrows on the occasional government helicopter, flying by to check in on them after that devastating tsunami. Since they're so isolated, and so little is known about them, how precisely does he imagine the police to rock up on the shores of their island, make peaceful contact, explain the concept of "police", and then conduct a full and thorough investigation?

And even if that were possible, the most likely outcome would be "oops, sorry, we thought we were under attack and defended ourselves against an incoming army". A people who are largely uncontacted, are likely unaware that in the rest of the world it's only good manners that one publicly declare war, before starting to legally kill enemies - seeming or otherwise.

Also, India isn't obliged to do anything. They've already done their bit by making this a no-go zone. Asking for anything more is like me deliberately walking into a WW1 battlefield, where the Belgian government has put up clear signs that I shouldn't be there, getting a foot blown off, and then demanding that the Belgian government investigate.

The answer will be: "We told you not to go there, you idiot! Which bit about 'danger, stay out' did you not understand? Sorry about your foot. Don't visit again!"

And they'd be right. In the same vein, India has done what she can, and beyond that it's on the person's head. So, I pity the missionary, but I have no sympathy for the ICC's entitlement and outrage.

Edited November 22, 2018 by samurai_sarah
Bad choice of words, which could be misconstrued if taken out of context. Sorry.

[Walking Cat Bed]

32 minutes ago, CTRLZero said:

I think so.  In terms ICC might better understand - he [knowingly] trespassed; they stood their ground.   There was just no common sense going on here on the part of the so-called missionary, which is not unusual based on some of the fundies we follow here.  So tragic.  So preventable.

This exactly.

 

How is entering their island, being driven off, and then coming back (to share Jesus) different from someone sneaking around a house, being scared away, and then coming back (to share Jesus) and using the unlocked basement window to get into the house? 

[HarryPotterFan]

On 11/22/2018 at 7:26 AM, SamiKatz said:

India must take steps to counter the growing wave of intolerance and violence.' 

What about HIS intolerance and potential to commit genocide on this group of people? Where it the call to counter that kind of crap? This is the exact kind of bullshit I can’t stand about evangelicals. When they’re told that they must tolerate and stop persecuting others they cry about intolerance and persecution. Fuck them and their entitlement.  

Now I want the Indian government to go after the ICC.

[Lisafer]

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I don't support it either. 

The death penalty is when there are other options and people choose to kill someone because of revenge, an eye for an eye sort of thing. In this situation the only way the tribe could protect themselves is to kill him. It does not seem they had any other options to get him to leave them alone. 

ETA: I can't have pity for someone who went into a situation with his goal being cultural genocide but knowing he might commit actual genocide and the very people whose culture and lives he had no concern for killed him protecting themselves. I'm sure this is difficult for his family and I can have sympathy for them, but for the man who was okay committing genocide? Not a bit. 

I understand where you're coming from: if I had to kill an intruder to protect my family, I would do it, and the intruder would have gotten what he deserved, so to speak. I'd probably feel bad that somebody had to die, but all the blame would lie with the intruder.

So I feel bad in this case that somebody died: death is not something I would have wished on him. But he played the part of a dangerous intruder, was warned, and was killed. I think we all know where the blame falls...

[ADoyle90815]

I think he was either suicidal, or more likely had a martyr complex. I just hope nobody from the tribe gets any diseases he might have carried. To them, he was another intruder who didn't take their warning shots seriously enough.

[refugee]

17 hours ago, FullOfGravy said:

 

 

Jesus H. Christ.  30 seconds of googling told me that next to nothing is known about the Sentinelese language, except that it's an isolate - not related to any other known language, and because the tribe itself has no outside contact, they won't know anything about outside languages.  Meaning two things:

1) There is absolutely no one who can translate between their language and any other language on earth.

2) You can't even learn a closely related language and hope to get by on cognates and gestures.

He either didn't think to scroll down even a teeny bit on Wikipedia to find this out, or assumed that God would open their hearts and ears and make them magically understand English just so he could preach at them.

He was probably raised on missionary stories where missionaries went to live in a tribe to learn their language and customs and then preach the gospel to them in a way that was relevant to them.

I can think of at least three such stories from when I was in that crowd. Kay Arthur told one. I think the book “Peace Child” was another, though I never read it so I could be wrong.

ETA: these are examples of a popular genre in that crowd. Many families seriously constrain their kids’ reading. So the kids satisfy their sense of curiosity and adventure with this type of thing:

https://m.barnesandnoble.com/w/christian-heroes-janet-benge/1024071001?ean=9781576582084&st=PLA&sid=BNB_New+Core+Shopping+Top+Margin+EANs&sourceId=PLAGoNA&dpid=tdtve346c&2sid=Google_m&gclid=Cj0KCQiAxNnfBRDwARIsAJlH29BVkTQjlHlFtj8iAU6AaONW1fEey-RCHGjPBxWTm3W9E4VLoPlaPjsaAjq7EALw_wcB

It appears we share some Facebook friends. From the context of their responses to this, I would guess he was from the neo-reformed crowd and thus heavily influenced by the Harris family’s “Do hard things” message.

Edited November 22, 2018 by refugee
Example of missionary biographies aimed at kids, if I did the link right

[snarkopolis]

2 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

This isn't cut and dried, though. There's plenty of ethical/moral/legal questions raised by this situation.  Of course, the guy should have known better.  You could even argue (and people are) that he deserved it.  But the tribe doesn't know it is protected by the law of the land and that people shouldn't come there.  They're just like, get off my island!

Missing the entire point. It is cut and dried. The law in India is clear. Do  not go within 3 miles of the island, no contact allowed. Guy lied about his purpose on his Visa ( he KNEW). When he got there the people SHOT arrows at him. That action does not sound like "Hello, come in".

Let's just admit that this guy thought that him being a CHRISTIAN FROM AMERICA was his excuse to ignore all the laws of another country he was visiting (India) and endanger the lives of people who had no immunity, on an island he was NOT allowed to visit, because he thought exposing them to JESUS/CHRISTIANITY was WAAAY more important. So what if the islanders die, and he breaks laws---he's a (WHITE) CHRISTIAN (MAN) FROM AMERICA and these are inferior brown people.

[refugee]

16 hours ago, formergothardite said:

He engaged in illegal behavior that he had to have known put the entire group at risk of death. It wasn't just his life he was willing to risk, it was also the life and culture of this tribe. Did illegal stuff where he lucked out and didn't commit genocide doesn't earn him any pity in my book.

No, no I disagree. His christianized homeschooling science (I don’t know this as a fact, mind, but am extrapolating from the Facebook people we have in common) may well have been crappy enough that the thought of killing them with germs never crossed his mind.

I know. It boggles the mind. But think of the people who believe essential oils cure cancer, and vaccines are part of an evil conspiracy.

(p.s. not defending the indefensible. Just explaining some of the brainwashing in his culture)

Edited November 22, 2018 by refugee
Autocorrect

[ViolaSebastian]

Here’s an interesting documentary about the island and it’s inhabitants that was posted on Reddit. 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by ViolaSebastian