American Missionary Killed by Indigenous Tribe

[Briefly]

19 hours ago, HurricaneBells said:

They wouldn't know what a christian is to begin with. The arrogance of this guy is astounding and sorry, I am honestly a very nice caring and empathetic person 99% of the time but my first thought was well you deserved it and I am going to stick with it. He had no fucking right to be there and he knew it and he suffered the consequences for his stupidity and arrogance. I hope they arent holding onto his body though, they wouldn't even comprehend the danger of doing so. Its a tiny group too, i think less then 40 in total, it would not take much to wipe them out.

I am kind of surprised the fundies arent all over this... persecution and all that shit

He was apparently a student of ORU (Oral Roberts University) in Tulsa and may have graduated there.  That in itself tells me quite a bit, in general the student body thinks that they are better than everybody and better Christians than everybody.  It's big news here, because of the Tulsa connection.

Yes, he was extremely arrogant.  But, like I said, that is a hallmark of most of the ORU students I come across.

[nastyhobbitses]

1 hour ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

Again, I'm not talking about the guy.  He was obviously an asshat who didn't listen and thought he was, I don't know, above the law or something.  I'm talking about the other issues, like watching a culture, a language die out.  How can we share things with other cultures without hurting them? How can they share things with us?  Isn't it sad from a purely etymological perspective? No? Do we all just want to rant about the dumb guy who knocked on the one door he reallllllly shouldn't have knocked on? Okay then, let's do that. 

 

If the sharing would lead to literally the entire island and its entire population dying in agony from diseases they have no way of fighting off, then yeah, we shouldn't fucking share. My peanut butter sandwich may taste super awesome, but I'm not giving it to my peanut-allergic friend in the interest of culinary exchange. 

[Briefly]

16 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Apparently his family has publicly forgiven the tribesmen who killed him. Not enough eye rolls in the world for that one. 

Theyve also arrested seven fisherman who helped him get to the island, as well as a friend of his that helped organize this debacle. 

https://www.pressrepublican.com/cnhi_network/the-latest-relatives-forgive-tribesmen-who-killed-american/article_61f09c34-51bd-5ace-91bf-fba5b717fef8.html

A thought did occur to me.  Do the authorities know for sure that he was actually killed by the tribe?  As in are they sure that the fishermen didn't try rob him and then killed him?  Just something that popped into my head today.  Which does not negate the fact that he should never have been in/on that island in the first place and does not excuse what he was trying to do.

[DarkAnts]

I think it’s important to point out the fact that he made multiple trips to the island. The tribesman warned him to stay away with arrows and spears but he did not listen to them.

[DangerNoodle]

1 hour ago, Briefly said:

Do the authorities know for sure that he was actually killed by the tribe?  As in are they sure that the fishermen didn't try rob him and then killed him? 

He kept a journal and an Instagram. The day he died he wrote an entry about believing his work with the tribe was important. Doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of doubt out there that he was killed by the tribe. 

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, Briefly said:

A thought did occur to me.  Do the authorities know for sure that he was actually killed by the tribe?  As in are they sure that the fishermen didn't try rob him and then killed him?  Just something that popped into my head today.  Which does not negate the fact that he should never have been in/on that island in the first place and does not excuse what he was trying to do.

They don't have any proof other than the fishermen's word, but if someone goes to an island where the people are known to kill everyone who gets close the most likely scenario is that those people killed him. And we know from his own words that he planned to make contact.

[luv2laugh]

As I’ve been thinking about this more, not only was he inconsiderate of the well-being of the tribe but he wasn’t being considerate of his parents. He knew if he died there, and it sounds like he believed he would as the last journal he wrote reads like a suicide letter, he knew his body would not have a realistic chance at being recovered. He knew that if he died, he’d be giving his parents even more misery in their grief by not having the closure of burying his body. His journals read as though he was so self-focused and arrogant that it blinded him from rational thought. He even wrote that he couldn’t understand why they are “so angry even though I’ve been so nice to them” and that “They didn’t accept me at first”. I am even more convinced that this was someone not “dealing with a full deck”. I am convinced he thought that he could win them over, being blinded by his own ego, and figured he would die trying. At best, be better than Jim Elliot and at worst, he wanted that same fame even though he knew it meant he’d die just like him. His letters come off as if he thought they’d end up in a book one day. He comes across as someone who had a grandiose idea of himself and was blinded by narcissistic delusion. 

He even wrote of them “laughing” at him as they threw spears at him & into his Bible saying, “they were laughing at me so they must have been saying something bad about me” and said they were beating drums while a “leader got up on the tallest rock wearing a white crown and yelled at me”. He had A LOT of nerve to go back. This is someone that HAD to have a pathological reason to have a complete absence of fear. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by luv2laugh

[DangerNoodle]

Want a laugh? I recommend Matt Walsh's Twitter.

[formergothardite]

3 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

 I'm talking about the other issues, like watching a culture, a language die out. 

I was thinking about this. It is said that they could have been on this island for 60,000 years?! That is almost unimaginable! The things that we could learn by studying their language and culture could have huge historical impacts. I hate the idea of them dying out without anyone being able to learn about them, but at the same time, they don't exist for our benefit. They clearly know that there is a whole lot out there and they aren't interested. This is their culture and language and at this time they don't want to share it with us and we should respect that. 

3 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

ow can we share things with other cultures without hurting them?

At this point it doesn't seem like we can or like they actually want things outside their culture. It isn't really sharing when that culture doesn't want things from us. That is forcing something on a group of people. 

3 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

How can they share things with us? 

It does not appear that they are slightly interested in sharing things with us. They can share things with us when they want to. They know we are out here. 

3 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

Isn't it sad from a purely etymological perspective?

Sure, but this language and culture doesn't belong to us, it belongs to them. As much as we would love to study their language, we have no right to go against their desires and risk destroying a a way of life they clearly hold dear just because it will give us sad feelings and we won't get to study something we want to study. 

As for innocents ending up there on accident. To get there you have to be like this guy and pay people who know how to navigate around the police, coast guards and navy, which are all patrolling the area to prevent people from getting into the illegal areas around the island. 

[dawbs]

14 minutes ago, DangerNoodle said:

Want a laugh? I recommend Matt Walsh's Twitter.

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

On the rare rar occasions I think anything close to agreeing with Matt Walsh, it's reason enough to rethink my position.

Man I miss the 'things Matt Walsh is wrong about today' blog.
Because If you find yourself nodding along w/ Matt Walsh, you should probably rethink it.  Because he's an ass 100% of the time.

[Carm_88]

It's sad that we will never really know much about the tribe. However, if they are happy and living in their own little world, then they are. We always think that we know better then the people themselves, look what we have done with native tribes around the world. We've fucked them up. Just leave them be, we aren't that great!

[luv2laugh]

I really recommend reading The NY Times interview article featuring T.N. Pandit, the anthropologist that made contact with the Jarawa and Sentinelese tribes. He is living his old age deeply saddened and regretful of ever making contact with them. It’s enriched my understanding and interesting to hear why.

Edited November 23, 2018 by luv2laugh

[formergothardite]

14 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

he anthropologist that made contact with the Jarawa and Sentinelese tribes.

It is a very enlightening article. The article makes it clear that despite what Matt Walsh might claim, the lives of this tribe probably won't be improved if they let us in.

[LilMissMetaphor]

36 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

 

It does not appear that they are slightly interested in sharing things with us. They can share things with us when they want to. They know we are out here. 

 

But this is why I keep thinking about such situations.  How can they? All of them, I mean.  I'm picturing those who are not able to run out to the beach with arrows to defend their way of life.  The old grandmas if there are any left, the mothers, the young people, those who may be hidden (of their own choice, or not).   I'm not saying they need to be saved.   It just makes me wonder if those ones have any agency.  Can you imagine being the only one of your tribe who did want to leave? Or did simply want more information/contact about the others out there? It's a bit of a Hollywood fantasy, right, but not impossible? 

When people say "they can leave if they want to," I don't see how that's actually possible.  It's not as if they're Amish and can just walk down a road to freedom.  They're literally insular.   

[fundiefan]

Look at what 'society' has done to indiginous people in recent history. In the US, in Canada, in Australia. I fail to see how anyone can be so self important as to think 'we' know what's in their best interest. People want to conquer, win, convert, force, take away. To pretend it's for their sake or 'knowledge' is just disturbing. It's not. The only reason for making contact is to convince them to live like you.

That article made me sad. Humans learn nothing. Not exactly stellar reference for wanting to integrate isolated societies. 

[luv2laugh]

The Sentinelese are a fascinating people & culture. They’ve been able to exist for thousands of years. They would have a lot to teach us. However, if we immersed them into our world, it would be selfish and only for our benefit.  We’d be immersing them into a world that they cannot sustain. How would they learn our languages, get modern day jobs, and modern day shelter? How would they learn about our money, our laws, etc? Would they want to? They don’t seen interested at all. They know we exist, they’ve seen helicopters flying over them (back in 2004 after the tsunami), they’ve seen our people, our ships, our cameras, our clothing, and likely have passed down stories to their offspring about their history of dealings with us (for instance in the case of T.N. Pandit where they happily received the coconuts he brought them).

It’s warm and fuzzy to think about how we could introduce them to modern medicine and other modern conveniences. However, we have to learn from history, from people like T.N. Pandit who attempted this with them, and be realistic. For instance, in America, we cannot even take care of the people here who are economically disadvantaged and do not have health insurance. We have people all over the world who have access to modern medicine and being treated horribly by modern medicine just because they don’t have health insurance. We can’t be selfish and say our way is better. Perhaps they can’t live as long of a life as many of us have the privilege of access to modern medicine but who is to say that our lives are better, in terms of quality, than theirs?  I imagine they all work really hard to make sure that the people who are sick there are cared for as best as they can. Not everyone in America that is sick has neighbors ready to send them meals and make sure they have shelter. I imagine the Sentinelese do care for the sickly and give them these needs until they pass away whereas there are many lonely, sick, suffering, and economically disadvantaged elderly people here.

Many times, our modern day privileges and way of life make me want to run away and live on a paradise island to escape from toxic personalities and corruption. Complete fantasy, I know, but our way of living can be void of quality in many ways.

Edited November 23, 2018 by luv2laugh

[LilMissMetaphor]

3 minutes ago, fundiefan said:

The only reason for making contact is to convince them to live like you.

 

This is an extremely un-nuanced view of the many non-religious, non-proselytizing, deeply educated anthropologists, sociologists and linguists/language lovers that we are lucky enough to have in this world.  

[Walking Cat Bed]

To revisit my earlier comment, if I knew of a person in my area who didn't want to be bothered by anyone, reacted to unwanted visitors by throwing rocks at or shooting toward them, and there were barricades keeping the unwary from wandering onto this person's property...I'd leave them alone. If they are that determined to be left alone, I will leave them alone. 

[formergothardite]

3 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

It just makes me wonder if those ones have any agency. 

None of us know. There might be some who want to leave, but also, do those same people understand that doing so might very well kill them? Would they still want to leave if they understood that? That article shows that when the other isolated tribe in the area that had people contact them eventually decided to explore the world it ended up pretty much a disaster for them. There is no way for us to know what every single person on that island wants, but that doesn't give us any rights to try to force ourselves on them. 

There are many unknowns, but what we do know is

~other similar tribes have been decimated and left suffering from poverty and sexual exploitation when they finally allowed people in. Even when people came in with good intentions and with care it did not go well for the tribe. Why in the world would anyone think this would be any different? 

~the tribe has scavenged modern shipwrecks for various items, they have had modern items given to them, they see modern boats, airplanes, helicopters. The parts of the tribe we see are aware that there is a lot out there and they don't appear to want the world we have. 

~We know that for as long as we have known of the tribe they have not wanted to interact with others. The one man being an exception and even he regrets his actions.  Maybe there are one or two who go against the grain, we don't know, but it is clear that wanting to be left alone is a long standing part of this tribe. 

In the end, the language and culture is their's and no matter how much we want to learn about it we should leave them alone, and not bother them just because we find them interesting and there might be an off chance a couple of them aren't happy on the island. 

[Soulhuntress]

The thing that bothers me is this: it is not a mission trip with an agency backing him as much as it is an "excellent adventure" complete with planned lawbreaking.  No "gee lets bring fresh water to an isolated village" or "let's rebuild the washed out bridge"or "hey lets bring medical care to an area ravaged by HIV" (all of which ARE missionary endeavors and IMNSHO commendable things which leave the indigenous population better off than before).  This selfish guy went looking for adventure with a veneer of Jesus and that bothers me so so much.  

[Lisafer]

20 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

 

In the end, the language and culture is their's and no matter how much we want to learn about it we should leave them alone, and not bother them just because we find them interesting and there might be an off chance a couple of them aren't happy on the island. 

Exactly! Without any evidence to suggest that the islanders are in distress or that any of them wish to leave, there is no reason to even attempt to contact the tribe. 

It's like saying that a hypothetical grumpy neighbor with "no trespassing" signs might have a prisoner chained in his attic, and therefore I should break into his house and look around. That certainly wouldn't be acceptable from an ethical or legal perspective!

The mindset of "well, they don't know what's good for them" freaks me the hell out because it sounds so...rapey. Thanks, Matt Walsh, for again showing the world what a douchebag you are. 

[snarkopolis]

5 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

 

 I wanted to get into the bigger surrounding stuff.   

What bigger surrounding stuff?  Chau spent time planning this trip. He ignored ALL information that said "Hey these people do not want you there. We passed some laws to make sure you know NOT to go there." Chau wasn't some dude who got lost and stumbled onto their little island. He deliberately went there. ON PURPOSE. No mystery. ON PURPOSE. No bigger stuff.

Actions have consequences. He got consequences.

[Emilycharlotte]

I just saw an article that said that Indian authorities are “struggling” to figure out how to recover this guy’s body, and I was shocked that they are considering it.  No way should anyone else have to risk their lives in a recovery effort, nor should they endanger the health of the islanders by making contact with them. I’m sorry he was killed, and I do feel bad for his family, because I can find a way to feel bad for just about anyone; but the reality is he broke the law AND took an enormous risk* and these are the consequences.  Even his supporters should understand and accept that. 

*some would say an idiotic risk, but I’m choosing a neutral word instead

[LilMissMetaphor]

12 minutes ago, snarkopolis said:

What bigger surrounding stuff?  Chau spent time planning this trip. He ignored ALL information that said "Hey these people do not want you there. We passed some laws to make sure you know NOT to go there." Chau wasn't some dude who got lost and stumbled onto their little island. He deliberately went there. ON PURPOSE. No mystery. ON PURPOSE. No bigger stuff.

Actions have consequences. He got consequences.

Oh FFS.   I am not interested in talking about the actual fucktard who visited the island, but in the surrounding circumstances, which some of the other posters have been engaging in dialogue with me about, thankfully.  If nuance isn't your thing, then maybe move along. 

[Rachel333]

I do actually think that it can feel fairly paternalistic when people assume they know what's best for indigenous people. Some of them do want to participate in the modern world and its advantages, and their desire to live their life the way they want is more important than maintaining outsiders' romantic ideas of people untouched by modern life. It makes me think of this famous cartoon:

The thing is, this doesn't really apply to "uncontacted" people. There really aren't any left at this point; the tribes labeled as such are well aware of the outside world and have made it clear they don't want to be part of it. We need to respect their decision and not assume we know better than them and force contact.

It's definitely possible that there are people on that island who don't agree with that decision but are unable to leave, and I do feel for them if that's the case, but I still don't think it's really any of our business, especially since those people are just hypothetical and we don't actually know what they're thinking.