American Missionary Killed by Indigenous Tribe

[Zebedee]

2 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I'm sorry to sound so cold - but that is the reality.

That doesn't sound cold. I feel sorry for his family and friends, and can imagine that they are clinging to hopes he's alive; also, wrt to fishermen on bamboo poles: they were caught illegally fishing in waters that also supply the Sentinelese with food. Perhaps this is the punishment for stealing? Perhaps that's why the body was buried instead, or because they know outsiders bring diseases and it's a protective measure. As with it all, who knows? It's their home and their business.

As for Ms Ho and her ilk, they're just lying parasites trying to cover their asses.

[The Mother Dust]

27 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I think that is entirely possible. 

Just look at sickle cell anemia. It is prevalent in people of African descent. They say that it is adaptation of genetics to fight of malaria. The parasite is unable to enter the red blood cells due to the sickle shape. 

That is super interesting, I have never heard that before.  I could believe that theory.  I wonder if people with sickle cell anemia need to take malaria meds if they travel to where it might be prevalent. ?If I wasn't so terribly bad at math I think I would have gone into medicine, as ya'll can see, this stuff fascinates me.  Thanks for answering all my questions.  ?

[TheOneAndOnly]

32 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

And Ms Ho of Allnations.us is a big fat liar:

Quote

Ms Ho said the Indian government lifted restrictions on traveling to the island in August. She said she couldn't comment on why Chau arrived there the way he did, but that he carefully planned it.

Oh, no, they didn't.

I wonder if Mr Chau was being told that what he was planning was actually (but secretly?) legal? Ugh. Lying is bad, people. It's bad for very good reasons. 

[NoKidsAndCounting]

This story is fascinating in good and bad ways.  I hope this serves as a lesson to other missionaries to simply STAY AWAY, especially from tribes, people, groups that do not want outside contact.  They've lived the way they have for thousands of years, and they do not need anything from the outside unless THEY (the people of that tribe) ask for help.  Over periods of history, outsiders have come in and introduced a lot of disease and risk to isolated groups.  I can completely understand why they do not want anything from others.  Others have TAKEN from them.  They have been on their own for so long that germs from the outside world could hurt them terribly.  John Chau risked their lives when he made the poor decision to "get them to know Jesus."  Firstly, John Chau's words would do nothing for them.  He said that he started preaching to them.  Mr. Chau, guess what?  The Sentinelese people do not speak your language, and they owe you nothing.  Secondly, they warned you.  I feel badly for his family, and this is going to sound harsh, but I hope the tribe burns his body on the beach for the world to see.  This would hopefully protect them against illnesses and confirm that Mr. Chau is dead.  No one should try to retrieve his body. 

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, The Mother Dust said:

That is super interesting, I have never heard that before.  I could believe that theory.  I wonder if people with sickle cell anemia need to take malaria meds if they travel to where it might be prevalent. ?If I wasn't so terribly bad at math I think I would have gone into medicine, as ya'll can see, this stuff fascinates me.  Thanks for answering all my questions.  ?

I used to be a lab tech nearly 30 years ago, I seem to recall hearing that in my studies.  Not sure if its 100% resistance though. 

[EmiGirl]

45 minutes ago, NoKidsAndCounting said:

Firstly, John Chau's words would do nothing for them.  He said that he started preaching to them.

I imagine it was of the screaming variety of "preaching " as well.

[libgirl2]

7 minutes ago, EmiGirl said:

I imagine it was of the screaming variety of "preaching " as well.

I have a feeling he didn't scream. It was probably more of a "Jesus loves you, let me tell you how much" or "Jesus died for you, would you like me to tell you more about him?" (I got that one from a former co-worker once) and they looked at him like wtf? 

[The Mother Dust]

5 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I have a feeling he didn't scream. It was probably more of a "Jesus loves you, let me tell you how much" or "Jesus died for you, would you like me to tell you more about him?" (I got that one from a former co-worker once) and they looked at him like wtf? 

And then I picture this ?

Spoiler

 

 

[libgirl2]

He wasn't even speaking their language, was he? Does anyone speak their language? At least the early Jesuits went among Native Americans usually had an interpreter or spoke some of the tribe languages. At least I think many of them did. 

[refugee]

5 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

He wasn't even speaking their language, was he? Does anyone speak their language? At least the early Jesuits went among Native Americans usually had an interpreter or spoke some of the tribe languages. At least I think many of them did. 

From what I’ve read, no one outside the tribe speaks their language, and it doesn’t overlap with the language of any nearby people groups.

I could be remembering wrong, of course.

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, refugee said:

From what I’ve read, no one outside the tribe speaks their language, and it doesn’t overlap with the language of any nearby people groups.

I could be remembering wrong, of course.

I think that is what I heard too. 

[Beermeet]

14 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

He wasn't even speaking their language, was he? Does anyone speak their language? At least the early Jesuits went among Native Americans usually had an interpreter or spoke some of the tribe languages. At least I think many of them did. 

That was one of my first thoughts. He can't even speak with them enough to tell them how wrong they are for not loving Jesus. This guy got what was coming to him. Add those ridiculous "gifts" he brought, his being a pest and I love these Island People. I do feel bad for his immediate family. That's about it though.  I wish I could spear those door knockers myself. Now, we got a whole Island knocker?! I hope those Island people don't get sick from Mr. White Savior insisting on being a self righteous asshole.  ?‍♀️

[AmazonGrace]

2 hours ago, Zebedee said:

Ugh, according to the Daily Mail (admittedly, not a reputable news source!) his mother prayed "and has a feeling" her son is alive, as does a friend. So, naturally, lives should be risked to see if he is alive. Even though he wanted to live with the tribe. So, if he *were* alive, and miraculously didn't kill the tribe with diseases, the last thing he'd want to do is be removed... and have Gpd's work interfered with... No worries expressed about any illnesses he may already have passed on, let alone fears for the retrievers and tribe, whether they went to retrieve him or his body.*deep sigh* 

Of course, since he's not alive, this is all moot.

Even supposing he was alive somehow, I still don't see what would be the point of rescuing him. I mean,  if he was alive with the Sentinelese, he got his wish and he'd be able to tell them about Jesus and lose that chance if the cavalry comes and gets him out of there. 

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

That was one of my first thoughts. He can't even speak with them enough to tell them how wrong they are for not loving Jesus. This guy got what was coming to him. Add those ridiculous "gifts" he brought, his being a pest and I love these Island People. I do feel bad for his immediate family. That's about it though.  I wish I could spear those door knockers myself. Now, we got a whole Island knocker?! I hope those Island people don't get sick from Mr. White Savior insisting on being a self righteous asshole.  ?‍♀️

Didn't he bring duct tape? Yes, just what they needed. 

I hope they don't get sick either. And sorry but how self righteous and self important is someone who thinks if these people don't know Jesus they aren't saved. 

[Eponine]

On 11/25/2018 at 10:48 AM, refugee said:

I get really confused sometimes. Like that time the little girl was on the news because she was fascinated with the Japanese tea ceremony so she researched it and tried to recreate it, and got jumped on for cultural appropriation, and then a woman from Japan spoke up in her defense to say she wasn’t just playing but treating it seriously and with respect.

...but also, kids learn through play. So can urban kids learn to make a dream catcher in a parks and rec program, in an appropriate way somehow, or is that cultural appropriation and only the Native Americans whose tribal culture uses dream catchers are allowed to make them? Is it okay for a white kid to join a drumming group and take part in drumming ceremonies? Or is he only supposed to sit on the sidelines because that’s not his culture and he can never belong?

I honestly find the rights and wrongs of this concept confusing. I also think people miss out on understanding out of fear of putting a foot wrong. Probably better than tromping through without any thought or consideration for others’ feelings and experiences, at least. But still... how is learning done well, and when is curiosity a good thing? (I suspect the answer lies in “Do no harm” but I’m a long way from feeling like I “know” anything.)

so... um, not sure how to say the jumble of thoughts in my pre-coffee fog. Just...thanks for the conversation. 

There was another good answer in this thread, but I wanted to emphasize that another key component of avoiding cultural appropriation is acknowledgement of the creator and pointing any profits accordingly. There is the moral/ethical point of not taking credit for something that's not yours, but the practical point of making sure the right people make the money is also really important.

Plenty of people learn about other cultures, enjoy them, etc, but appropriation comes when 1) there is a lack of awareness of how/why the piece of culture came about and how it's relevant to its place/people of origin and 2) when people not part of that culture are taking credit and/or making profits off it. An example of this would be non-Native Americans wearing a stereotypically "Native American" outfit and headdress, when really those clothing items might be exclusively meant for a specific ritual, or they assign it to a very different tribe, etc. A while back there was a lot of argument online about a white teen girl wearing a cheongsam/qipao to her prom when she clearly had no clue about the origin.

But a really big issue, especially in the US is the question of profit: tons of white musicians, for example, make ridiculous amounts of money on historically "black" music and exploiting some aspects of American black culture, when black artists would not be able to make the same kind of profits from it. Or the black artists would be viewed as distasteful if they did the same thing - see Miley Cyrus. This is generally not seen as quite as problematic if the artist is very open and honest about their influences and inspirations, and urges people to check out the original music.

In your example of "urban" kids making dream catchers - if they are being taught by a Native American who understands the significance and importance of the dream catchers, and if they get paid a fair price to teach it, I think that would generally be seen as okay. But then those kids shouldn't turn around and teach dream catcher-making classes and get paid for doing so: it's not their culture and after one class they do not understand it well enough to do so, and likely will never appreciate the real importance of those objects. To avoid appropriation it would be better for those kids to encourage others to take the class and/or buy that teacher's work.

This is REALLY important because of the huge economic disparities in the US between white people and people of color, and these disparities can be made worse when white people make money that people of color (the creators of the art/culture being exploited) should be making.

[Beermeet]

26 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Didn't he bring duct tape? Yes, just what they needed. 

I hope they don't get sick either. And sorry but how self righteous and self important is someone who thinks if these people don't know Jesus they aren't saved. 

This guy is such an asshole, I can't even. Neither could the islanders,  apparently.  I would hope missionaries would see this for what it is but I'm sure they will spin this story to their liking and martyr Mr. Jesus Football Tape. 

[FullOfGravy]

36 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I have a feeling he didn't scream. It was probably more of a "Jesus loves you, let me tell you how much" or "Jesus died for you, would you like me to tell you more about him?" (I got that one from a former co-worker once) and they looked at him like wtf? 

It may not have been angry-screaming, but he would have had to at least be calling loudly; if the Sentinelese were chasing him off with arrows, he presumably didn't get close enough to talk normally.

 

22 minutes ago, refugee said:

From what I’ve read, no one outside the tribe speaks their language, and it doesn’t overlap with the language of any nearby people groups.

Certainly no one outside the tribe is known to speak their language.  From the few words people have heard them say/shout, it doesn't seem to be related to any other known language.  Apparently Chau tried calling out in English, and, when that didn't work, tried a few words of Xhosa - because, you know, these isolated people from the Andaman Islands have totally been talking to South Africans all this time.  The more information comes out, the stupider and more wilfully ignorant Chau seems.

 

22 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

Even supposing he was alive somehow, I still don't see what would be the point of rescuing him. I mean,  if he was alive with the Sentinelese, he got his wish and he'd be able to tell them about Jesus and lose that chance if the cavalry comes and gets him out of there.

If he were still alive, the damage germ-wise would likely already be done, but I guess they could at least pull him out before he made it any worse.  If nothing else, drag the idiot home so he can stop annoying the Sentinelese with duct tape and English preaching.  He's likely already dead and it's a moot point, though, and it's probably best for everyone if his body stays wherever the Sentinelese have put it.  If it was his life-long goal to get to Sentinel Island, well, good job, pal - you're there.

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, TheOneAndOnly said:

I wonder if Mr Chau was being told that what he was planning was actually (but secretly?) legal? Ugh. Lying is bad, people. It's bad for very good reasons. 

My guess is that he, and Ms Ho, decided that their direct messages on the hotline from God outweighed the laws of Man.

And Ms Ho's lie is easily debunked.  India did not lift any restrictions on travel to North Sentinel island in August, 2018.

44 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

Even supposing he was alive somehow, I still don't see what would be the point of rescuing him. I mean,  if he was alive with the Sentinelese, he got his wish and he'd be able to tell them about Jesus and lose that chance if the cavalry comes and gets him out of there. 

In the very unlikely event that he is alive, there would be good reasons to remove him from the island. 

First, to stop him pestering the Sentinelese about Jebus.  Second, to prosecute him for his crimes.  And third, to stop him from infecting the Sentinelese with any germs or bacteria he is harboring that they may not have had exposure to before now. 

Not necessarily in that order.

It is not just the common cold or flu that could potentially kill the Sentinelese.  "Normal" bacteria that are benign in his gut could wipe them out too if they get into the water supply.  I hope they buried his Bible, duct tape, soccer ball, and other "gifts" with him or burned them.  Goodness knows what bugs they were contaminated with.

[TheOneAndOnly]

Honestly I'm surprised no one has done the whole, "But what about the children?" thing as an excuse to go bother this tribe.

[libgirl2]

23 minutes ago, FullOfGravy said:

It may not have been angry-screaming, but he would have had to at least be calling loudly; if the Sentinelese were chasing him off with arrows, he presumably didn't get close enough to talk normally.

 

Certainly no one outside the tribe is known to speak their language.  From the few words people have heard them say/shout, it doesn't seem to be related to any other known language.  Apparently Chau tried calling out in English, and, when that didn't work, tried a few words of Xhosa - because, you know, these isolated people from the Andaman Islands have totally been talking to South Africans all this time.  The more information comes out, the stupider and more wilfully ignorant Chau seems.

 

If he were still alive, the damage germ-wise would likely already be done, but I guess they could at least pull him out before he made it any worse.  If nothing else, drag the idiot home so he can stop annoying the Sentinelese with duct tape and English preaching.  He's likely already dead and it's a moot point, though, and it's probably best for everyone if his body stays wherever the Sentinelese have put it.  If it was his life-long goal to get to Sentinel Island, well, good job, pal - you're there.

He either was wholly ignorant of their ways or wholly arrogant that somehow God would make them understand. 

[cascarones]

4 hours ago, The Mother Dust said:

How have they not died out from the inevitable inbreeding?

Others have given great links, but I'll take a stab as well. It is thought the current isolation is, in historic and genetic terms, recent based on statements from the close by Jawara. The coexistence and lack of warring between the two tribes is part of why the gross Englishman. Portman's writing is unclear as to which tribe he had taken his "subjects" from. It's worth noting there's a lot of genetic guessing going on. 60,000 years is based on the sophistication of tools being used when initial contact was made and the assumption the same genetic line of people have continuously lived on the lush, food filled island without strings and strings of invasions. 

On a genetic front, anything that prevented a person from living to an age where they could reproduce and healthy enough to do so has a good chance of being out of or very limited in the gene pool. Mutations do occur at different rates in different gene pools, which is really fascinating stuff, but we don't know much about their's or the Jawara. Or possibly, it's just not in any English publications. 

[Petronella]

I’ve been avidly following the discussion about the would-be missionary to the Sentinel Island isolated tribe. It was here, and “hot”, but now it’s disappeared without any pointer or explanation. I’ve looked in other areas but had no luck. Anyone else know?

[Briefly]

Is this the one you wanted?  I searched with his last name and I think there may be more than one thread.

[Petronella]

Thank you!

I do wish that when things are moved there would be a little redirect for a while. (I’ve seen that in other forums.)

It’s frustrating for active (in this case VERY active) threads to just disappear. It’s also misleading, because usually when a discussion is no longer on the front page, it’s because no one has posted recently. It’s frustrating to stumble across it elsewhere even weeks/months later and realise that it’s been going on this whole time.

Is there a way to tag threads of interest so we can find them even when they move?

[Coconut Flan]

The redirect works when the person moving/merging the thread (me this time) is not a klutz.    I didn't realize until it was too late and I had to repair what I could.