American Missionary Killed by Indigenous Tribe

[Soulhuntress]

1 minute ago, DangerNoodle said:

If I could have one question answered  I think it would be about the small gene pool. 

Take the Amish. They have all kinds of disorders associated with a small gene pool. And there are like a quarter of a million Amish. There are only like 50ish members of this tribe. I wonder how that has affected them. 

I wonder if they do have contact with other tribes on the other islands.

[Palimpsest]

12 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I admit that I have questions, also.  Different questions, but while I can promise I'm not trolling I am uncomfortable asking them for fear of immediately being thought stupid.

What are your questions?

I think there are two different things being discussed here.  

1. Anthropological research into isolated peoples
2. Christian Evangelism by Dominionists to the "unreached" peoples of the world, and the Sentinelese are only one of the peoples that are being targeted.

1.  As far as anthropological research is concerned the prevailing wisdom is to leave them alone unless, or until, they voluntarily make contact themselves.  After that, then proceed with extreme caution so as to protect their lives (from disease), their culture (from contamination by the greater world), and their language.  As linguistics are inextricably connected to culture, when a language is lost then so is much of the culture. 

This also must be taken in the context of the history of intentional  genocide over many centuries as people who are "different" have been exterminated, coerced or forcibly integrated into the dominant culture to the detriment of their own.  And there is also unintentional harm done to cultures by do-gooders and evangelists intent on saving souls.

You still get a few anthropologists arguing that the hands off policy for isolated peoples is wrong - because it is denying them the right to join the 21st century.  Yeah, they usually have a selfish agenda themselves.  In my opinion.

2.  Christian Dominionist Evangelists.  Young Chau has caught our attention because he chose one of the most isolated tribes in remaining in the world to kill him.  And a people well known to defend themselves from intruders.  I am getting sick and tired of people calling the Sentinelese "aggressive."  They seem to be quite happy to stay on their island and only to defend themselves against intruders when they are forced.  The aggression was all on his side, if you ask me.

However, what many people seem to be missing is that Chau is not alone.  He's not just some deluded little nutcase who wandered there unintentionally 'cos Jebus.  He had an organisation behind him, as  @Lisafer linked above.  That "missionary" organisation seems pretty Mickey Mouse, but they are not alone.  Neither is Chau's thinking unique.

He planned this escapade for years and no-one told him to stop.  No-one he had told about his plans blew the whistle to India that he was about to endanger the Sentinelese.  And now there is a huge outcry. 

There are any number of Christian Dominionist "Missions" sending twits like Chau where they are not wanted because of the Great Commission.  The Joshua Project has a whole list of the "unreached" or as they like to say "Frontier" people.  https://joshuaproject.net/frontier

Or here is Global Frontier "Mission."  https://globalfrontiermissions.org/gfm-101-missions-course/the-unreached-peoples-and-their-role-in-the-great-commission/

Or click on almost any Fundie Missionary Clearing House and you will find a few  "missionaries" whose location can't be identified because they are there illegally.  

It is totes cool to lie for Jebus.  They go to places where they are not wanted and knowingly break the laws to get in.  If they are lucky they just get deported when they are discovered.  If not they sometimes get killed or imprisoned.  They demonstrate contempt for international law, contempt for the laws and religions of the countries they invade, and they expect sympathy if they get caught or "Martyred."

They get absolutely no sympathy from me and neither do their deluded supporters.

[refugee]

1 hour ago, Glasgowghirl said:

That is true, then people were a lot more uneducated about other cultures and thought converting them to Christianity and adopting our customs was the best way for them. The British Empire was the worst for this, that was wrong and had a damaging legacy after the breakup of the empire. The amount of fundies and other Christians that still have that mindset today is shocking.

Chau chose a tribe that has made it clear they don't want outside contact for a reason, either because he was deluded enough to think he could convert them or to be a martyr. Either way he was a selfish idiot.

At least she should have did what the Hodnet's did and chosen an already Christian country to convert. 

If I’m remembering right, in his book Hawaii, Michener has a section about European missionaries and their efforts. I remember being shocked (having been told glowing missionary stories somewhere or other... maybe Sunday school?), but it was a starting point for me in considering something other than the assumptions that were common in a small Midwestern town.

@HerNameIsBuffyI appreciate your speaking out. After offending various FJers in my early days, I have tried to listen way more than I talk. Maybe I don’t always succeed because one of my ways of finding understanding is to talk things through until it makes sense to me. (I often have said to my kids, I’m not excusing something someone did, just trying to understand.)

Because I grew up in a lily-white Midwestern town (no “official” segregation like signs on the drinking fountains I’ve seen in photos) with one black family (I think the dad was a doctor in the local hospital), I know I’m highly capable of stumbling and offending with no intention of hurt, just ignorance. I want to learn, but I realize that other FJers haven’t been put in place for my convenience.

I get really confused sometimes. Like that time the little girl was on the news because she was fascinated with the Japanese tea ceremony so she researched it and tried to recreate it, and got jumped on for cultural appropriation, and then a woman from Japan spoke up in her defense to say she wasn’t just playing but treating it seriously and with respect.

...but also, kids learn through play. So can urban kids learn to make a dream catcher in a parks and rec program, in an appropriate way somehow, or is that cultural appropriation and only the Native Americans whose tribal culture uses dream catchers are allowed to make them? Is it okay for a white kid to join a drumming group and take part in drumming ceremonies? Or is he only supposed to sit on the sidelines because that’s not his culture and he can never belong?

I honestly find the rights and wrongs of this concept confusing. I also think people miss out on understanding out of fear of putting a foot wrong. Probably better than tromping through without any thought or consideration for others’ feelings and experiences, at least. But still... how is learning done well, and when is curiosity a good thing? (I suspect the answer lies in “Do no harm” but I’m a long way from feeling like I “know” anything.)

so... um, not sure how to say the jumble of thoughts in my pre-coffee fog. Just...thanks for the conversation. 

[freealljs]

I just wonder what he was thinking would happen, that the Natives would: 

1. Understand English (or maybe he spoke their native tongue, which I highly doubt) 

2. Would welcome his version of Christianity and then start going to church on Sunday (assuming they even have a concept of the week and month) 

[Vivi_music]

I don't know if it has been mentionned previously in the thread, but I was wondering today if the news have been used by any fundie we follow?

I was thinking this story would be considered as a perfect opportinuity in their fundi-point-of-view to promote the harsh and difficult work of missionaries, how Chau was a martyr for the faith, how he was killed for Jebus or something.

 

[Palimpsest]

16 minutes ago, Vivi_music said:

I don't know if it has been mentionned previously in the thread, but I was wondering today if the news have been used by any fundie we follow?

I was thinking this story would be considered as a perfect opportinuity in their fundi-point-of-view to promote the harsh and difficult work of missionaries, how Chau was a martyr for the faith, how he was killed for Jebus or something.

 

There is an awful lot of squawking about his "martyrdom" among his friends and other misguided Dominionists on Twitter.  Also in the more rabidly Christian press.

As far as the Fundie "missionaries" ones I follow - not yet.  I saw a lot more chatter about the "martyrdom" of Charles Wesco in Cameroon.  There may be a couple of reasons for their radio silence though:  I suspect cynically that 1.  Chau didn't fit their definition of "right kind of Christian," and 2.  Chau was not nearly white enough to get their attention.  

[Lisafer]

1 hour ago, refugee said:

If I’m remembering right, in his book Hawaii, Michener has a section about European missionaries and their efforts. I remember being shocked (having been told glowing missionary stories somewhere or other... maybe Sunday school?), but it was a starting point for me in considering something other than the assumptions that were common in a small Midwestern town.

@HerNameIsBuffyI appreciate your speaking out. After offending various FJers in my early days, I have tried to listen way more than I talk. Maybe I don’t always succeed because one of my ways of finding understanding is to talk things through until it makes sense to me. (I often have said to my kids, I’m not excusing something someone did, just trying to understand.)

Because I grew up in a lily-white Midwestern town (no “official” segregation like signs on the drinking fountains I’ve seen in photos) with one black family (I think the dad was a doctor in the local hospital), I know I’m highly capable of stumbling and offending with no intention of hurt, just ignorance. I want to learn, but I realize that other FJers haven’t been put in place for my convenience.

I get really confused sometimes. Like that time the little girl was on the news because she was fascinated with the Japanese tea ceremony so she researched it and tried to recreate it, and got jumped on for cultural appropriation, and then a woman from Japan spoke up in her defense to say she wasn’t just playing but treating it seriously and with respect.

...but also, kids learn through play. So can urban kids learn to make a dream catcher in a parks and rec program, in an appropriate way somehow, or is that cultural appropriation and only the Native Americans whose tribal culture uses dream catchers are allowed to make them? Is it okay for a white kid to join a drumming group and take part in drumming ceremonies? Or is he only supposed to sit on the sidelines because that’s not his culture and he can never belong?

I honestly find the rights and wrongs of this concept confusing. I also think people miss out on understanding out of fear of putting a foot wrong. Probably better than tromping through without any thought or consideration for others’ feelings and experiences, at least. But still... how is learning done well, and when is curiosity a good thing? (I suspect the answer lies in “Do no harm” but I’m a long way from feeling like I “know” anything.)

so... um, not sure how to say the jumble of thoughts in my pre-coffee fog. Just...thanks for the conversation. 

I understand the fear of offending, especially because I grew up in a culture of ignorance and whitewashing. Perhaps there's someone here who could link to good articles on cultural appropriation? I feel like I understand a lot more now than I did ten years ago, but I sometimes still have to stop and really think about certain things to wrap my head around a new perspective. 

And @Palimpsest, that organization seems to have no regard for the lives of their "missionaries." It's like they're TRYING to make martyrs. 

[Glasgowghirl]

1 hour ago, refugee said:

If I’m remembering right, in his book Hawaii, Michener has a section about European missionaries and their efforts. I remember being shocked (having been told glowing missionary stories somewhere or other... maybe Sunday school?), but it was a starting point for me in considering something other than the assumptions that were common in a small Midwestern town.

 

Going to a Catholic school meant I wasn't taught much about missionaries, especially the ones fundies look up to. In RE they did talk about some charities that do aid work abroad but nowhere did they mention converting people. We watched Chariots of Fire and learned that Eric Liddell died working as a missionary during the second world war, it was the end of term and the teacher used that as an excuse to put a film on more than anything else.

[refugee]

1 minute ago, Glasgowghirl said:

Going to a Catholic school meant I wasn't taught much about missionaries, especially the ones fundies look up to. In RE they did talk about some charities that do aid work abroad but nowhere did they mention converting people. We watched Chariots of Fire and learned that Eric Liddell died working as a missionary during the second world war, it was the end of term and the teacher used that as an excuse to put a film on more than anything else.

Did they teach you about the priest, I think it was, who ran a leper colony in Hawaii? I know I used to know more about him, but my brain seems to be in “memory dump” mode.

[Palimpsest]

22 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

And @Palimpsest, that organization seems to have no regard for the lives of their "missionaries." It's like they're TRYING to make martyrs. 

I note with interest that AllNations.us cancelled its planned fundraising dinner to mourn for John Allen Chau.  The guy they irresponsibly encouraged, "trained," and probably paid money to so he could go and invade the Sentinelese.   Perhaps it is because they are getting donations pouring in already from misguided people.

As for trying to make martyrs for the misbegotten cause..  Could be.  Here's the Widow Wesco drumming up support for martyrdom:

Quote

“She did not want to leave Cameroon, even after Charles died, because of her love for her savior and those dear people,” said Tom Needham, who has been a missionary in Cameroon for years. “Stephanie has asked me to appeal to you today, on her behalf, to consider taking Charles’ place as a missionary to Cameroon. When the blood of a missionary martyr touches the ground, the seeds of new missionaries are sprouted.”

 

https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/local/mishawaka-missionary-killed-in-cameroon-remembered-fondly/a

FFS.  They should stay at home!

Edited November 25, 2018 by Palimpsest

[Terrie]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

It is also news to me that domestic violence has been eradicated in the US and Europe.   

The fight I described wasn't domestic violence or abuse, it was standard conflict resolution.  The violence is very shocking to someone from a US or European background because it is contextually so different, not because there's more of it.

[DarkAnts]

2 hours ago, Soulhuntress said:

I wonder if they do have contact with other tribes on the other islands.

From what I read no. They propel their boats with sticks touching the seabed. They can only go out as far as their stick allows. 

[Palimpsest]

25 minutes ago, Terrie said:

The fight I described wasn't domestic violence or abuse, it was standard conflict resolution.  The violence is very shocking to someone from a US or European background because it is contextually so different, not because there's more of it.

Then she was a rather sheltered, poorly prepared, and poorly educated anthropologist to be so shocked by people in Papua New Guinea thumping each other - although apparently the combatants she was so shocked by walked away from the conflict alive.   That is not always true in the US.  A bout of fisticuffs with the winner and loser both walking away is better than a fatal conflict.  IMO.

Have you watched the news recently - I can't count the number of conflicts in the US in the last couple of months that have been resolved by people being bludgeoned to death or gunned down by their relatives and neighbors.   And that is not counting random acts of violence or being targeted for driving or walking while black.

There is no such thing as "standard" conflict or dispute resolution.  Successful conflict resolution is above all things sensitive to and dependent on cultural norms.   And there are many different models - even in "enlightened" countries like the US or Europe.

Certainly in the US, Canada, and Europe moves have been made towards resolving conflict by non-violent means.  Usually by talking things over, arbitration, litigation, boycotts, diplomacy, conciliation, and so on.   However, "standard" conflict resolution can also come about through violence, military action and war.  Even in the US and Europe.

[Terrie]

17 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Then she was a rather sheltered, poorly prepared, and poorly educated anthropologist to be so shocked by people in Papua New Guinea thumping each other - although apparently the combatants she was so shocked by walked away from the conflict alive.

*slow clap* Wow, you've just got it all figured out, don't you? I never said she was shocked. It was told to a bunch of college freshman to illustrate a point about cultural expectations, and I related it here in the context of a guy claiming that being a missionary  was risking his and his families life simply by going there.  Looking back at my original comment, I should have also included her counterpoint story, that many tribes existed in a state of constant warfare, yet some anthropologists set up lawn chairs on the field to watch and take notes, because our views on "acceptable" violence are culturally bound.

I should have included that, but about 5-10 minutes after I posted it I had to go throw up because I have had super shitty cramps today (literally), and I didn't think someone would decide they needed to play know it all lecturer over it, so I ended up posting what was, I admit, a half-finished thought. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

What are your questions?

I'm currently sans keyboard and typing paragraphs with onscreen keyboard might kill me.

[Palimpsest]

@Terrie I stand corrected.  Yes, it is a pity you had cramps.  It would have definitely been better to have told the counterpoint story because it would have explained that she was educating about different norms.  As it was you left it as:  

Quote

My anthro prof specialized in Papua New Guinea (the eastern side of the same island), and yes, many tribes there are very violent by American/European standards. 

And I am saying that "American/European standards" are still very violent. 

1 hour ago, Terrie said:

The fight I described wasn't domestic violence or abuse, it was standard conflict resolution.  The violence is very shocking to someone from a US or European background because it is contextually so different, not because there's more of it.

However, this still does not explain what you meant about "standard" conflict resolution.  I reserve the right to pontificate about that.  Violence still exists in Europe and the US.  There is no such thing as standard conflict resolution.

But perhaps you still have cramps because I also don't understand your overly aggressive responses to my post.  See it in context - and that you did not tell the counterpoint story.  You did not make yourself clear.

And I hope you feel much better soon.  

[samurai_sarah]

2 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

Going to a Catholic school meant I wasn't taught much about missionaries, especially the ones fundies look up to. In RE they did talk about some charities that do aid work abroad but nowhere did they mention converting people. We watched Chariots of Fire and learned that Eric Liddell died working as a missionary during the second world war, it was the end of term and the teacher used that as an excuse to put a film on more than anything else.

I hear you. The only missionary we ever learned about in Catholic RE was Father Damien, whom I think is who @refugee is referring to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Damien

But then, Catholicism abolished the need to convert anyone with Vatican II. I can't find the precise doctrine in a jiffy, but the argument was that OT people couldn't know Jesus, which called their salvation into question. The very revered heroes and heroines of the OT couldn't get into heaven by accident of being born too early? Hence Vatican II decided that anyone can get into heaven. The Almighty judges your soul in the end.

At least that's what I was taught in Catholic RE.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

20 minutes ago, samurai_sarah said:

Hence Vatican II decided that anyone can get into heaven. The Almighty judges your soul in the end.

At least that's what I was taught in Catholic RE.

This is my experience as well.

[Terrie]

@Palimpsest My point was that the example was not an example of domestic violence, but that within that society violence was a standard method of conflict resolution. Going back to the book, Peace Child, the guy tried to act like he could be killed at any moment. They're super violent cannibalistic headhunters, don'tcha know? And I felt it was important to acknowledge that, yes, many of the cultures in that area are going to be seen as violent by people coming from America, Europe or other similar culture. But the implication that he and his family were risking cannibalism is a bunch of hooey and an exaggeration, because cannibalism is almost always a ritual activity, not something random. (Though my archeology professor claimed there was one ancient Andean culture who spread rumors they were cannibals because they knew it freaked out the Spanish colonials). So Peace Child is not made up wholesale, but it is exaggerated to make the missionary look good. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 minutes ago, Terrie said:

he and his family were risking cannibalism is a bunch of hooey and an exaggeration, because cannibalism is almost always a ritual activity, not something random.

tbf not everyone has your seemingly casual approach to cannibalism, which I find disturbing.

[Terrie]

23 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

tbf not everyone has your seemingly casual approach to cannibalism, which I find disturbing.

Cannibalism freaks me the fuck out. But there's a huge difference between "We eat of our dead as part of our funeral rites" and "we eat random people." 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, Terrie said:

Cannibalism freaks me the fuck out. But there's a huge difference between "We eat of our dead as part of our funeral rites" and "we eat random people." 

For me it's worse.  The Donner party showed the effects of starvation on the brain and how it affected the most ingrained social and moral codes which makes it horrifying yet understandable.

Choosing to do so as part of a ritual is far more terrifying to me.  And yes, if I were to be living amidst people who were capable of cannibalism as part of their society I would absolutely be afraid and consider my life in danger.  YMMV.

[FullOfGravy]

25 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Choosing to do so as part of a ritual is far more terrifying to me.  And yes, if I were to be living amidst people who were capable of cannibalism as part of their society I would absolutely be afraid and consider my life in danger.  YMMV.

Disclaimer that I'm not an anthropologist, but my understanding is that most groups who practice cannibalism don't kill people in order to eat them.  People die of other causes - illness, old age, some other conflict.  Ritual cannibalism tends to be a means of honouring the dead and of keeping them with you - in the same way that, say, my grandmother keeps my grandfather's ashes.  An outsider might not even be a candidate for cannibalism, since they aren't from the family or tribal group.

I first heard of this in a class on protein chemistry, back when I thought biochem was my thing (it's not), and the anthropological side of it was secondary.  What was really horrifying was the prion disease aspect.

[Rachel333]

Just now, FullOfGravy said:

What was really horrifying was the prion disease aspect.

Yes, those diseases are rare but scary.

Related, this is my favorite WebMD question:

Spoiler

You don't have to eat human brains to get them either. An American man recently died of a prion disease after eating squirrel brains. https://www.livescience.com/63831-squirrel-brains-rare-disorder-creutzfeldt-jakob-disease.html

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, FullOfGravy said:

Disclaimer that I'm not an anthropologist, but my understanding is that most groups who practice cannibalism don't kill people in order to eat them.  People die of other causes - illness, old age, some other conflict.  Ritual cannibalism tends to be a means of honouring the dead and of keeping them with you - in the same way that, say, my grandmother keeps my grandfather's ashes.  An outsider might not even be a candidate for cannibalism, since they aren't from the family or tribal group.

I first heard of this in a class on protein chemistry, back when I thought biochem was my thing (it's not), and the anthropological side of it was secondary.  What was really horrifying was the prion disease aspect.

I was just getting up to make dinner.

I think I'll wait.

(I appreciate the info though, thanks.)