American Missionary Killed by Indigenous Tribe

[Walking Cat Bed]

3 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

This. I get that he couldn't find an interpreter to go with him but why on earth would he think that this remote tribe would respond to him yelling at them in English and when they clearly did not, he used the few words he knew in Xhosa. Because he thought all dark-skinned people talk alike? No, he was bent on becoming a martyr, nothing more.

That's like JimBob Duggar using Spanish while in Nepal. 

[Alisamer]

3 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

This. I get that he couldn't find an interpreter to go with him but why on earth would he think that this remote tribe would respond to him yelling at them in English and when they clearly did not, he used the few words he knew in Xhosa. Because he thought all dark-skinned people talk alike? No, he was bent on becoming a martyr, nothing more.

This guy either had a death wish or was an absolute moron. How on earth did he think he was going to "save" them? Even if they could understand English, they have no reference to start from. Here he is with this really dense book (something they don't have), full of difficult concepts and contradictions, and they won't have the first idea what heaven is or what hell is, or who the romans were or where Jerusalem is, or anything. they don't have the cultural context for him to even start explaining the bare basics. 

This is why I have a hard time believing that the loving creator Jesus talked about would send otherwise good people who haven't heard of him to hell. If a person did that they'd be considered a sociopath. 

In any case, this tribe has made it abundantly clear that they want others to stay away and their punishment for trespassing is death. Too bad for his family, but dude got swift justice there. 

[SecularMusic]

On November 23, 2018 at 1:05 PM, Rachel333 said:

I think that's a pretty apt comparison, actually. I see Jim Elliot in a similarly negative light as the way I see this guy.

Interesting ode to Jim Eliot here by none other than josh Harris https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/06/16/how-elisabeth-elliot-messed-up-my-love-life/?utm_term=.a1852475578e

I read the same book Josh refers to growing up. The Eliots were the fundie equivalent of catholic saints.

[Pammy]

The “old school” missionaries often committed to living alongside new people groups for decades. Their intention was to build relationships and learn to communicate over the course of those years. If he was idolizing that era, it may be that he had that form of contact in mind as a method to overcome the obvious language barrier. (It something that does work. People eventually learn to communicate if they live closely together and try hard, even if there is no linguistic common ground between them at first.)

[Jigsaw3]

How did John Chau fund his expedition? He didn't look like he was roughing it. Bribing people to break the law is not cheap, even in India, let alone all the travel costs. Something like flying a kayak on an intercontinental flight is an added cost: it's affordable for the average employed adventure traveller, but it's not really in a backpacker's budget. Was he working, or funded by his parents, or supported by a missionary organization?

Going back to the anthropology/research discussion: any proposed research involving human beings now has to pass an Ethics Review Board (usually administered by the research institution.) Researchers won't get grant funding and will have problems publishing without that approval. Even small projects, like undergraduate capstone projects in psychology, need to consider ethics, and ethics reviews should be very rigorous. Anyone wanting to do research on the Sentinel Islanders would have to undergo an ERB debating the exact questions we've just talked about at a really high level: I doubt they'd pass.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

17 minutes ago, Jigsaw3 said:

would have to undergo an ERB debating the exact questions

I'm tired and was amazed they'd have to do an Epic Rap Battle.

got it on the second read.

[SilverBeach]

On 11/22/2018 at 3:59 PM, LilMissMetaphor said:

I just thought it bore raising questions about.

Never mind.

Edited November 25, 2018 by SilverBeach

[HerNameIsBuffy]

16 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Sorry, your questions were stupid. Fuck that great white explorer shit. Why can't these assholes just leave people the hell alone? Always wanting to go where they are not wanted. Your curiosity does not trump the rights of other cultures to be left alone. I almost think you are trolling.

I admit that I have questions, also.  Different questions, but while I can promise I'm not trolling I am uncomfortable asking them for fear of immediately being thought stupid.

There are people in this thread whose opinions I respect very much, who have a great deal of knowledge in anthropological issues and this is not my area of expertise at all.  So while I would welcome an opportunity to learn so I could clear up some issues on the subject in my own head, I am wary of showing my ignorance (which I fully own) if it will be mistaken for malice or racism.

This isn't directed at you personally, just your post was a good jumping off block for a sentiment I've seen expressed throughout.  And I'm not judging … it's more I see a couple of issues no one else sees and I'm wondering why.  If that makes sense.

 

[SilverBeach]

25 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I admit that I have questions, also.  Different questions, but while I can promise I'm not trolling I am uncomfortable asking them for fear of immediately being thought stupid.

There are people in this thread whose opinions I respect very much, who have a great deal of knowledge in anthropological issues and this is not my area of expertise at all.  So while I would welcome an opportunity to learn so I could clear up some issues on the subject in my own head, I am wary of showing my ignorance (which I fully own) if it will be mistaken for malice or racism.

This isn't directed at you personally, just your post was a good jumping off block for a sentiment I've seen expressed throughout.  And I'm not judging … it's more I see a couple of issues no one else sees and I'm wondering why.  If that makes sense.

 

I've mentioned many times here that I'm black, and this is coloring my view on this whole affair (no pun intended). I am sensitive to the possible negative impact of white curiosity on cultures that do not want to be examined as an academic exercise. I have read the anthropological comments and they have been interesting and informative. For the most part, these comments are reinforcing that cultures are not to be studied against their will.

Perhaps stupid was a harsh word to use. Maybe ignorant and uninformed would have been better, which may be mistaken for malice or racism, unfortunately. But I think the members here can discern when good-faith inquiries are made vs. thoughtless ones. We know that people here come from all kinds of backgrounds and experiences.

It's late here and I'm tired. Kitty pictures are needed.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by SilverBeach

[luv2laugh]

I remember researching the Sentinelese before out of curiosity, years ago. I would love to learn more about them but we have to be honest with ourselves and realize it would only be for our benefit.

The Sentinelese are aggressive about NOT wanting contact from outsiders. Other Tribes in history welcomed contact but this one does not. 

I have to trust T.N. Pandit when he is spending his old age regretting ever contacting them. His contact with them was his life’s work where earned their trust over two decades and today he’s deeply saddened by it.

Edited November 25, 2018 by luv2laugh

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

I am sensitive to the possible negative impact of white curiosity on cultures that do not want to be examined as an academic exercise.

I agree.  science is owed nothing from them or any culture not choosing to share.  that's not a moral quandary for me.  when it comes to info for its own sake the world can fuck right off.

and don't stop posting because I'm communicating poorly tonight.  that's the last thing I intended.

[SilverBeach]

15 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I agree.  science is owed nothing from them or any culture not choosing to share.  that's not a moral quandary for me.  when it comes to info for its own sake the world can fuck right off.

and don't stop posting because I'm communicating poorly tonight.  that's the last thing I intended.

You are not communicating poorly at all! I was a bit triggered by some of the discussion, that's all. Don't stop asking questions because of my momentary churlishness, I sure didn't intend for that to happen. I have learned so much during the years I've been on FJ. Give and take is what we do. Some discussions are just more sensitive than others, for some members. I try to step back when I feel myself getting heated, but sometimes the fingers are quick!

Edited November 25, 2018 by SilverBeach

[anjulibai]

My general thoughts: If your questions come out of genuine ignorance but a desire to learn more, ask away. If they come out of a sense of superiority, keep it to yourself. 

[Duggarite]

On 11/23/2018 at 8:20 PM, fundiefan said:

I just had a "friendsgiving" brunch with some friends and friends of friends. There was a couple there talking about this. They were angry & full of righteous indignation that that poor American missionary was murdered. Shortly before this topic, they were regaling us with their love of tRump and the idea of closing US borders and turning away illegals and oh my god, the migrant caravan is going to kill us all! (Don't ask; they are neighbors of a friend and I'm not entirely sure why they were invited, or chose to come, considering the views of the rest of the crowd).

Anyway, since they had already regaled us with the migrants/illegals and how we have to keep ourselves safe and our borders closed, it was an easy entrance for me to ask how they can defend and support closing the US borders, the use of detainment camps (all the same by any name) and separating kids from parents because the US has to protect itself, but the Sentinelese murdered the poor American missionary - who illegally crossed their borders and entered without going through legal channels and had no right to do so. Weren't they protecting their nation just as you claim the US must do? 

It's obviously not that simple, but for once I actually managed to stump a tRumper and didn't even get a "but Hilary's emails" in response. Neither said a word to anyone the rest of brunch and they were the first to leave.

 

This is SO true! If you defend anti immigration laws, trespassing is definetely a no-no. 

[formergothardite]

11 hours ago, Alisamer said:

. How on earth did he think he was going to "save" them? Even if they could understand English, they have no reference to start from. Here he is with this really dense book (something they don't have), full of difficult concepts and contradictions, and they won't have the first idea what heaven is or what hell is, or who the romans were or where Jerusalem is, or anything. they don't have the cultural context for him to even start explaining the bare basics. 

He was almost certainly raised on the same sort of missionary stories I was where a missionary goes to a tribe where he doesn't know the language and they can't comprehend the concept of the Bible and spends years learning how to communicate and properly explain salvation until one day a light bulb goes off and they finally get it. For example in the Peace Child(which has been forever since I've read so I might have something wrong) the people couldn't understand the concept of Jesus and salvation until the missionary finally understood the language and culture enough to show them that Jesus was similar to what they called the peace child, that Jesus was the Peace Child for the whole world and, then boom, it all clicked and the tribe was then converted to Christianity. If my memory of the book is correct the missionary went to an extremely violent tribe who(according to the book) killed and ate people and he knew he was risking his life. 

So I can easily see him thinking that he would the next missionary who is embraced by a violent tribe and that he could learn their language and culture and then save them. 

[subsaharanafrica]

On 11/22/2018 at 10:07 AM, Toothfairy said:

This. They think they can do whatever they want. Especially rich white kids. A white man went to North Korea and broke some laws. He was trying to steal a painting. He was sentenced to hard labor and was abused. 

Are you talking about Otto Warmbier? Because the video they released as proof that he took the poster shows no such thing and they didn’t just abuse him, they put him into a persistent vegetative state. 

ETA: That is to say I’m not convinced that particular person was guilty of anything more than going to N Korea on an American passport. While it’s not the most prudent course of action or something I would do it’s also not something you should die for. It’s also far less grevious than knowingly illegally crossing the N Korea border like Lisa Ling’s sister and the other reporter did and they got to come home alive. 

Edited November 25, 2018 by subsaharanafrica

[Glasgowghirl]

I live in a town that was the birth place of a famous missionary and while most missionaries may have started off with good intentions, they often did more harm than good. Most missionary's to Africa 200 years ago were trained as doctors or had other skills that also helped people, conversation to Christianity was not the only aim they had. The trouble is that a lot of Christian groups only discuss the positive aspects of being a missionary or paint an untrue picture of what they did. I hadn't heard much about Jim Eliot until now, to me he should be a cautionary tale on what not to do, not some Christian hero. 

[gustava]

12 hours ago, Alisamer said:

This guy either had a death wish or was an absolute moron

A moronic death wish......

[Terrie]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

If my memory of the book is correct the missionary went to an extremely violent tribe who(according to the book) killed and ate people and he knew he was risking his life. 

Google shows he was with a tribe in Western New Guinea. My anthro prof specialized in Papua New Guinea (the eastern side of the same island), and yes, many tribes there are very violent by American/European standards. She told stories of her neighbors getting into a violent fight and seeing the man grab a stick beat his wife, because she had knocked him down and wouldn't stop kicking him. However, the idea that he was "risking his life" is overblown. The cannibalism and headhunting was very ritualized. Cannibalism is almost always a ritual thing when it's a cultural practice. The common meat in the area is pork, not people. 

[Palimpsest]

17 hours ago, Lisafer said:

Oh look, a mission organization who actually wants to claim this guy as one of their own: https://allnations.us/blog/    

I thought about commenting on the article, but figured it would never see the light of day.

Oh, and I meant to put "mission organization" in parentheses, since they don't seem to actually care about the wellbeing of other people...

Great find.  So these are the people (and their donor base) that encourage and enable deluded idiots like Chau. 

Quote

 

VISION AND MISSION

OUR VISION IS TO SEE JESUS WORSHIPED BY ALL THE PEOPLES OF THE EARTH.

OUR MISSION IS TO MAKE DISCIPLES AND TRAIN LEADERS TO IGNITE CHURCH PLANTING MOVEMENTS AMONG THE NEGLECTED PEOPLES OF THE EARTH.

“All Nations aspires to see disciple making movements in every people group of the world so that Jesus may be worshipped by every tongue, tribe and nation.”

 

They have a really shitty website, but they claim:

• to train people to go to countries that restrict missionary activity (teach them to lie about their visas)
• that they have 135 missionaries already in the field (potentially risking death)
• that donations are tax deductible (no 501(c)3 # in sight.)

Quote

DONATE

Be part of our goal to make more than 15,000 new followers of Jesus in the next 5 years and give to see simple churches in the neediest places of the world. Donate and give to specific projects to see disciple making movements happen all over the world.

No information on specific projects unless you subscribe to their newsletter.  But North Sentinel Island is marked in red on their map of current projects.  They are also converting England and Wales (sorry Scotland) and other heathen places like China amongst the usual suspects.

I think I'll pass on donating to them.  In fact, I think I'll make an effort to shut down their nonprofit status, if they have one.

1 hour ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I live in a town that was the birth place of a famous missionary and while most missionaries may have started off with good intentions, they often did more harm than good. Most missionary's to Africa 200 years ago were trained as doctors or had other skills that also helped people, conversation to Christianity was not the only aim they had. The trouble is that a lot of Christian groups only discuss the positive aspects of being a missionary or paint an untrue picture of what they did. I hadn't heard much about Jim Eliot until now, to me he should be a cautionary tale on what not to do, not some Christian hero. 

Oh, David Livingstone didn't do much converting nor did he give much medical help.  He was more of an explorer and a misfit back in Scotland, and ended up being looked after by the Africans he was supposed to be saving.  And most missionaries who went to Africa 200+ years ago went for the purpose of converting people.  The good deeds aspect came later, more in the 20th century.  And, yes, some of them did educate, and provide hospitals, clean water, and other technological advances. 

There are still missionaries for whom evangelism comes a distinct second and who go to developing countries to share real skills, technology, and education without trying to convert people as pay back.

1 hour ago, Terrie said:

Google shows he was with a tribe in Western New Guinea. My anthro prof specialized in Papua New Guinea (the eastern side of the same island), and yes, many tribes there are very violent by American/European standards. She told stories of her neighbors getting into a violent fight and seeing the man grab a stick beat his wife, because she had knocked him down and wouldn't stop kicking him.

Um.  A couple of World Wars not withstanding?

It is also news to me that domestic violence has been eradicated in the US and Europe.   And a violent person armed with a gun can kill more people in a lot less time than a violent person armed only with a stick, spear, or bow and arrows.

[Glasgowghirl]

11 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Great find.  So these are the people (and their donor base) that encourage and enable deluded idiots like Chau. 

They have a really shitty website, but they claim:

• to train people to go to countries that restrict missionary activity (teach them to lie about their visas)
• that they have 135 missionaries already in the field (potentially risking death)
• that donations are tax deductible (no 501(c)3 # in sight.)

No information on specific projects unless you subscribe to their newsletter.  But North Sentinel Island is marked in red on their map of current projects.  They are also converting England and Wales (sorry Scotland) and other heathen places like China amongst the usual suspects.

I think I'll pass on donating to them.  In fact, I think I'll make an effort to shut down their nonprofit status, if they have one.

Oh, David Livingstone didn't do much converting nor did he give much medical help.  He was more of an explorer and a misfit back in Scotland, and ended up being looked after by the Africans he was supposed to be saving.  

That is true, then people were a lot more uneducated about other cultures and thought converting them to Christianity and adopting our customs was the best way for them. The British Empire was the worst for this, that was wrong and had a damaging legacy after the breakup of the empire. The amount of fundies and other Christians that still have that mindset today is shocking.

Chau chose a tribe that has made it clear they don't want outside contact for a reason, either because he was deluded enough to think he could convert them or to be a martyr. Either way he was a selfish idiot.

At least she should have did what the Hodnet's did and chosen an already Christian country to convert. 

[HarryPotterFan]

3 hours ago, Jigsaw3 said:

How did John Chau fund his expedition? He didn't look like he was roughing it. Bribing people to break the law is not cheap, even in India, let alone all the travel costs. Something like flying a kayak on an intercontinental flight is an added cost: it's affordable for the average employed adventure traveller, but it's not really in a backpacker's budget. Was he working, or funded by his parents, or supported by a missionary organization?

Going back to the anthropology/research discussion: any proposed research involving human beings now has to pass an Ethics Review Board (usually administered by the research institution.) Researchers won't get grant funding and will have problems publishing without that approval. Even small projects, like undergraduate capstone projects in psychology, need to consider ethics, and ethics reviews should be very rigorous. Anyone wanting to do research on the Sentinel Islanders would have to undergo an ERB debating the exact questions we've just talked about at a really high level: I doubt they'd pass.

Yes, any study would have to prove that they are doing more good than harm. I don’t see how that’s possible in this case.

[Black Aliss]

Interesting backstory on the Sentinelese, their experience with "outsiders" and how they were able to move from the stone age to the iron age. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1065841141201989632.html?fbclid=IwAR0kZIs-MW1qTL9s0Ub_pUlnok3Wn-Bzfdny_xggMvCYnSOOHo-tlj4rp14

[DarkAnts]

I have questions about the tribe but, I am not entitled to the answers. It’s Their knowledge to give or not give. For instance, do they bury all of the tribe members on the beach or just outsiders? If not, how do they treat their dead. Is there more than one village on the island? What is their social structure like? It ok to have these questions and to be curious. They have made it clear that they don’t want to interact with the outside world. We need to respect that. We also need to keep the tribes health in mind. They are not immune to modern disease. Interactions with us could kill them. 

I am against tribal tourism. These people are NOT a zoo exhibit. They are individuals like me and deserve the same respect and privacy that I am afforded.  

[DangerNoodle]

If I could have one question answered  I think it would be about the small gene pool. 

Take the Amish. They have all kinds of disorders associated with a small gene pool. And there are like a quarter of a million Amish. There are only like 50ish members of this tribe. I wonder how that has affected them.