American Missionary Killed by Indigenous Tribe

[church_of_dog]

When trying to wrap my brain around a complex situation, I find it helps to parse out the different concepts that are all mashed together in the news bite of the incident.

So first I would remove the "issue" of the fact that his purpose for pushing his way onto the island was to proselytize -- that is controversial in and of itself, so let's leave that off for the moment and look at the situation as if he was doing something that we would pretty much all see as positive -- let's say that they were having a cholera outbreak and he was there to provide clean water and education about hygiene to end the outbreak.  

That's a good thing, right?  Welllll..... It's a good thing when viewed from inside OUR cultural mindset -- but our cultural mindset is not the king of the world.  

In my view the most important, highest-priority issue here is respecting their autonomy, their right to make their own choices about how to live.  That is more important even than saving their lives, their culture, their language.

Definitely we don't want to cause them harm, but when it comes to helping them deal with the normal risks of life on earth, that should be limited to "only when help is welcomed".

As opposed to those who said there are no moral or ethical issues here, I disagree, and I think these are fascinating concepts for us to be discussing.  Because it's not a very large step from "respect their autonomy to choose whether to join the modern era" to "respect their autonomy to choose to live a fundie lifestyle, or homeschool with no background, or to decline medical care in favor of essential oils", etc.  It could even morph into a discussion about things like assisted suicide...

I also like to use animal ecology as examples -- and I hope no one thinks I am "reducing" people to animals -- quite the opposite, since I personally have no less (and possibly more) respect for non-human animals than I do for homo sapiens.  So when I make comparisons to animal populations I am doing it out of an utmost of respect.

So, one of the comments I read earlier in the thread was referring to, paraphrasing, "but what if they don't realize how much we could help them!  If only we could communicate we could show them we're here to help!"  (not quoting anyone in particular, just pointing to a perspective that I think has been expressed).  To that I would say:  we could sure "help" the rattlesnakes and the black widows reduce their rate of murder-by-humans, by learning to stay out of our way...  But we don't lament the lack of communication between the species...  (well maybe a few do, lol)  But generally, we recognize that's just not our role.  We protect our own territories from harm by them but otherwise accept that they are here to share the planet with us.

Anyway my point is that any thought we have about what is good vs bad for this tribe -- including the idea that their population "should" live as long as possible/as healthfully as possible etc., are OUR FILTERS, OUR LENS.  That doesn't make it bad in any way -- most of us think these things with authentic good intent -- but it does make it our thoughts only, and not our business to implement or enforce.

 

tl;dr -- Respect their autonomy above all!  Humans should pat ourselves on the back for having the desire to help, then go find a way to help that is actually welcomed.

Edited November 26, 2018 by church_of_dog
word change

[adidas]

I haven’t read the last few pages, please forgive me if I repeat anything. I’ve been reading this thread over the last couple of days - so many great and and interesting points. 

Can I throw out another aspect which I haven’t seen addressed yet? But first I need to make a disclaimer - I’m a Christian and I personally think there are quite a few missionary agencies which do good things. There are others which do more harm than good IMO. Not the point of the debate here but I want to be transparent with my bias. 

Anyway. Martrydom. 

Let me preface this by saying - I have very little knowledge when it comes to this so please correct me if im way off. 

Usually when I think of martyrs, it’s because they were preaching the Bible and they were chased down, sought out, told to stop and then killed. They are usually given the chance to escape by renouncing their beliefs. Is that right?

ie - the punishment came to them. They were killed for their beliefs because their ‘enemies’ get threatened by the beliefs or the proselytising of those beliefs.

This guy though - he walked into the punishment.

I know that technically a martyr is someone who dies for their beliefs, but this guy didn’t actually die because he was a missionary. He didn’t die because he was a Christian. He didn’t die because he was preaching.

Is he actually a martyr? IMO I don’t think he was. 

Is anyone else on the same page as me? Or am I all alone  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 minutes ago, adidas said:

Is anyone else on the same page as me? Or am I all alone

I agree he is in no way a martyr.  he wasn't killed for his beliefs, no matter what he was doing.  He was killed because he intruded illegally on a tribe that kills intruders.

He could have been a door to door salesman or looking for weed and the result would have been the same - their intent wasn't to kill the Christian to make him stop preaching.  Their intent was to protect themselves.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Matthew 28:19, that go ye therefore and teach all Nations etc was really bad advice IMO.  We don’t know what Matt considered a Nation or how big he thought the world to be.  Stay in your lane and myob and you won’t get killed.  Religion ugh!  Makes some arrogant to the max.  That really used to get to me in the fundy church, uneducated, ignorant and not very bright people thinking they knew best for everyone. Just f**k off.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

 Almost didn’t post this but oh what the hell.  It’s real life and we’re all grownups.

Spoiler

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

2 hours ago, church_of_dog said:

In my view the most important, highest-priority issue here is respecting their autonomy, their right to make their own choices about how to live.  That is more important even than saving their lives, their culture, their language

Especially considering that mere contact  with us could kill them all and that all we can do for their culture and language is putting them in textbooks. In the end they are the only ones that can take care of themselves and their culture, something they have done for many a thousand years.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

 Almost didn’t post this but oh what the hell.  It’s real life and we’re all grownups.

 

I wish you'd gone with your first instinct.

I believe this young man is responsible for his own death.  He knew the dangers of what he was doing but due to his own irresponsible hubris or mania or whatever he lost his life.

Yes, he died due to his own stupidity and it was the only outcome of his actions, but I wish he had someone in his life to have gotten him some help and saved him from himself (and the saved the Sentinelese the risk of contact) so he wouldn't have made such dangerous and in his case, fatal, choices.

I see his death as unfortunate and inevitable given his actions ... but not funny.  

 

[Soulhuntress]

12 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I wish you'd gone with your first instinct.

I believe this young man is responsible for his own death.  He knew the dangers of what he was doing but due to his own irresponsible hubris or mania or whatever he lost his life.

Yes, he died due to his own stupidity and it was the only outcome of his actions, but I wish he had someone in his life to have gotten him some help and saved him from himself (and the saved the Sentinelese the risk of contact) so he wouldn't have made such dangerous and in his case, fatal, choices.

I see his death as unfortunate and inevitable given his actions ... but not funny.  

 

He genuinely (and IMNSHO foolishly) went to the Sentinelese with the best intentions and I wish someone had asked questions like "dude how will you communicate" or "gee that is not legal.  Why is that not legal"  The Jim Elliott team had someone from the Waodani tribe with them to teach them the language by the way.  This kid did not have anyone like that.  I really really blame whatever mission group sent him out. 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

@HerNameIsBuffy yes I should have, as soon as I posted it I was totes sorry.  Very poor taste on my part and I feel very badly.   Going to prayer closet for reals.

[church_of_dog]

17 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Especially considering that mere contact  with us could kill them all and that all we can do for their culture and language is putting them in textbooks. In the end they are the only ones that can take care of themselves and their culture, something they have done for many a thousand years.

Oh, I totally agree.

I tried to take it even farther by saying that even if the reverse were true (meaning they were at existing risk and outside contact could theoretically help reduce that risk) it would STILL be wrong IMO to force that "help" on them against their wishes.

But I definitely didn't intend to mask the very real risk of disease-borne genocide (or cultural dilution genocide either).  Those are actual real risks that are reason enough to condemn this guy's actions. 

[Walking Cat Bed]

9 hours ago, refugee said:

I get really confused sometimes. Like that time the little girl was on the news because she was fascinated with the Japanese tea ceremony so she researched it and tried to recreate it, and got jumped on for cultural appropriation, and then a woman from Japan spoke up in her defense to say she wasn’t just playing but treating it seriously and with respect.

...but also, kids learn through play. So can urban kids learn to make a dream catcher in a parks and rec program, in an appropriate way somehow, or is that cultural appropriation and only the Native Americans whose tribal culture uses dream catchers are allowed to make them? Is it okay for a white kid to join a drumming group and take part in drumming ceremonies? Or is he only supposed to sit on the sidelines because that’s not his culture and he can never belong?

I honestly find the rights and wrongs of this concept confusing. I also think people miss out on understanding out of fear of putting a foot wrong. Probably better than tromping through without any thought or consideration for others’ feelings and experiences, at least. But still... how is learning done well, and when is curiosity a good thing? (I suspect the answer lies in “Do no harm” but I’m a long way from feeling like I “know” anything.)

so... um, not sure how to say the jumble of thoughts in my pre-coffee fog. Just...thanks for the conversation. 

 

As far as cultural appropriation, I'm going to paraphrase what a few friends have told me. One, who is Cree and living in Canada, has said that unless the teacher is Native, using Native art or symbolism is problematic. (Especially if it's from a mass-produced kit). However, if a Native person shares something with you individually (or is selling their own work), it's a gift to appreciate.

Another friend is a white lady who spent much of her childhood in Peru, and she wrestles with incorporating anything from Peruvian culture into her life or work (she teaches spinning/fiber art at various festivals). Ultimately, her perspective is that if someone else created a thing, it's obnoxious to duplicate it and call it your own. She is not pleased when people call one of her teaching methods (which she learned in Peru as a child) "Abby's Technique", because she didn't create it -- it's Andean spinning. 

From a crafty person's perspective, learning a technique from another culture to create something for myself is a good experience (especially since I tend to make sure I know where that technique was created), but claiming credit or making money from that technique can be shady.

[adidas]

2 hours ago, Soulhuntress said:

 I really really blame whatever mission group sent him out. 

Was there one though? Or did he go independently?

[Lisafer]

8 hours ago, Soulhuntress said:

He genuinely (and IMNSHO foolishly) went to the Sentinelese with the best intentions and I wish someone had asked questions like "dude how will you communicate" or "gee that is not legal.  Why is that not legal"  The Jim Elliott team had someone from the Waodani tribe with them to teach them the language by the way.  This kid did not have anyone like that.  I really really blame whatever mission group sent him out. 

He knew it wasn't legal to contact the tribe. He knowingly broke the law to get to them. He knew there would be a communication barrier. 

The Allnations group that claims Chau as one of their own sounds like a shady organization, but Chau did not walk into this blind. He knew what he was doing.

[DarkAnts]

I suggest that people read “From Here to Eternity” it’s written by Caitlin Doughty. She talks about how different cultures deal with death. She talks about  cannibalism and other practices. It’s interesting and she discusses these cultures without judgment. She also has a great YouTube series called ask a mortician.

[adidas]

3 hours ago, DarkAnts said:

I suggest that people read “From Here to Eternity” it’s written by Caitlin Doughty. She talks about how different cultures deal with death. She talks about  cannibalism and other practices. It’s interesting and she discusses these cultures without judgment. She also has a great YouTube series called ask a mortician.

She is fantastic. Her YouTube channel is worth subscribing to. 

[Soulhuntress]

16 hours ago, adidas said:

Was there one though? Or did he go independently?

As All Nations, an international Christian missions training and sending organization to which Chau belonged, revealed the 26-year-old is a graduate of Oral Roberts University who for years had trained to share the Gospel with the Sentinelese.

International Executive Leader Mary Ho described the slain missionary as a "gracious and sensitive ambassador of Jesus Christ who wanted others to know of God’s great love for them."

Bad training and sending.  And one might call the agency criminal.

[SPHASH]

I hope the State Dept doesn't use any resources to bring this idiots remains home.

[HarryPotterFan]

3 minutes ago, SPHASH said:

I hope the State Dept doesn't use any resources to bring this idiots remains home.

I read Indian officials are trying to figure out how to recover his body. They went close to the island and they and the Sentinelese kinda looked at each other from afar. They’re trying to figure out what friendly gestures they could make and if it’s even possible to recover the body. They are discussing options with anthropologists, but experts think they shouldn’t try. 

https://news.sky.com/story/john-allen-chau-body-of-man-killed-by-tribe-may-never-be-recovered-11561875

[Soulhuntress]

11 hours ago, Lisafer said:

He knew it wasn't legal to contact the tribe. He knowingly broke the law to get to them. He knew there would be a communication barrier. 

The Allnations group that claims Chau as one of their own sounds like a shady organization, but Chau did not walk into this blind. He knew what he was doing.

Yes he did.  He was a grown man who made stupid decisions.

[Lisafer]

6 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

I read Indian officials are trying to figure out how to recover his body. They went close to the island and they and the Sentinelese kinda looked at each other from afar. They’re trying to figure out what friendly gestures they could make and if it’s even possible to recover the body. They are discussing options with anthropologists, but experts think they shouldn’t try. 

https://news.sky.com/story/john-allen-chau-body-of-man-killed-by-tribe-may-never-be-recovered-11561875

I'm sure it would be extremely dangerous, and the Sentinelese might fear retribution and be even more prepared to attack. I don't think anybody else should have to risk their lives over this.

[cascarones]

I wonder if did any anthropological research or simply just used missionary adventure books in his years of research. Mainly because he took gifts they would not recognize (duct tape),which is in and of itself a threatening gesture. Likely why his Bible was shot. He must have known the only person they were friendly with brought coconuts and began by leaving them in the water and keeping his distance.

I suspect when he announced he felt Called to do this, everyone around him just accepted it and encouraged it even if they gave him information, because he felt Called. Those reactions reinforced and overrode everything else like laws, common sense, respect or care for the lives of the Sentinelese. He'd researched them, he knew how to buck a visa and bribe people, so I'm assuming he had awareness that he could give them diseases.

I am sorry he lost his life in what must have been a very painful fashion and I'm sorry for the Sentinelese and the very potential disease outbreak, also the very likely fear he caused them just like previous attempts. My understanding is they watch the shores and sea with posted guards to protect their island.

I find the viewpoints on this thread on wanting to preserve their culture (which we don't even understand and would likely misinterpret) self-serving and colonialist. As someone tribally affiliated, whose family carries traditions passed down and likely changed over generations it's a very hard no from me. Leave them be, they're aware of the outside world and chosen their way of life and their local modern day government has chosen to respect that.

 

[DarkAnts]

1 hour ago, HarryPotterFan said:

I read Indian officials are trying to figure out how to recover his body. They went close to the island and they and the Sentinelese kinda looked at each other from afar. They’re trying to figure out what friendly gestures they could make and if it’s even possible to recover the body. They are discussing options with anthropologists, but experts think they shouldn’t try. 

https://news.sky.com/story/john-allen-chau-body-of-man-killed-by-tribe-may-never-be-recovered-11561875

The tribe liked the coconuts and bananas officials gave them years ago when they were trying to make contact. The tribe only gets coconuts when they wash up on shore. Chaus gifts were so stupid. 

[Spanger]

I can’t wrap my head around the idea that the authorities in this situation are even considering trying to retrieve Mr. Chau’s body, much less try to investigate.  The Sentenalise people are not going to understand more strangers showing up on their island.  The potential for them to be further exposed to devastating illness is not worth it.... and without any language in common, the chances of the two groups being able to have a meaningful communication about “what happened” is slim to none.  We already basically know “what happened” anyway- what else can we learn by further disturbing these people?  They should be left alone!

I hope the seven people who helped him evade the coast guard/etc are held accountable for their crimes.  And honestly, if he’s affiliated with a mission organization in the US that knew of his plans and either helped him, or did not try to stop him, they should be held accountable as well.  He had no right trying to go there, and would not have been able to do so without the help of others.  (And to be clear- they should be accountable/punished for the distress and possible devastation caused to the Sentinalese people, not for having a hand in Mr. Chau’s death- he got what was coming to him.)

[FullOfGravy]

 

2 hours ago, Soulhuntress said:

As All Nations, an international Christian missions training and sending organization to which Chau belonged, revealed the 26-year-old is a graduate of Oral Roberts University who for years had trained to share the Gospel with the Sentinelese.

International Executive Leader Mary Ho described the slain missionary as a "gracious and sensitive ambassador of Jesus Christ who wanted others to know of God’s great love for them."

After all these years of training, he didn't know any better than to try to communicate with the Sentinelese in English and then Xhosa.  He didn't do any reading about what kind of gifts they've accepted in the past, or try to consider his potential gifts from their point of view (wtf did he expect them to think of duct tape?).  He most certainly didn't consider whether the Sentinelese would want him on their island (clearly not), and when he - predictably - did not receive a warm welcome, he persisted in trying to make contact.

If that's Ms. Ho's idea of a gracious, sensitive, well-trained ambassador, I'd hate to see what kind of missionary she'd consider rude and ignorant.

[katilac]

22 hours ago, Soulhuntress said:

He genuinely (and IMNSHO foolishly) went to the Sentinelese with the best intentions and I wish someone had asked questions like "dude how will you communicate" or "gee that is not legal.  Why is that not legal"  The Jim Elliott team had someone from the Waodani tribe with them to teach them the language by the way.  This kid did not have anyone like that.  I really really blame whatever mission group sent him out. 

I would guess that various people DID ask those questions, but they are also questions he needed to ask himself.   He was not particularly young and not particularly sheltered. He may have grown up in a religious bubble and stayed in it through college, but he was 27, active on the internet, and well-traveled. He had been to the Andaman Islands twice already, in 2015 and 2016. 

His writings do make him appear incredibly naive, but imo it had to be a somewhat deliberate naivete. In other words, it's not that he never saw or heard of differing viewpoints and experiences, but chose to disregard them to fit the narrative of his beliefs. 

I do agree that the missionary group is at fault also.