John David and Abbie 6: Flying Off to the Honeymoon

[Eponine]

14 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

Also I told my dad that if any guy asks him permission to marry me to say no. A guy who thinks my dad should get a say in who I get to marry is not the guy for me.

I did the exact same thing! I would be horrified if my partner did that. We don't plan to have a ceremony for a variety of reasons, but if I did I'd definitely have both of my parents walk me. I don't see any reason my mom should be excluded from that.

[MayMay1123]

my father died when i was 20, 2 1/2 years before i got married. i had my mother and her brother, who is my godfather, walk me. when my daughter got married, both her father and i walked with her because i wanted to keep that small part of it, and because we are both her parents. we didn't 'give her away', but we walked beside her, as we have done all her life, and gave her hand to her husband to walk beside her now.

[JingerSnaps]

12 hours ago, Meggo said:

I think my mom was disappointed that my husband didn't ask permission to marry me (of them - he DID ask mine! :))

My husband asked my dad. He repaid it by asking my husband if he really wanted to marry me because I’m stubborn, difficult, and messy. ? 

[Satan'sFortress]

Hi @Eponine!  I once had a wonderful cat named Eponine.    That is all. 

[feministxtian]

My stepdaughter J's then-boyfriend asked our blessing to propose to J. Of course we gave it. When Mr. Xtian and I were dating, before my father died, he told Mr. Xtian that if he even REMOTELY thought that Mr. Xtian was treating me wrong, he'd whup his ass. At that point, my father was very ill, and that wasn't going to happen. It made daddy happy to say it though. 

When Mr. Xtian and I got married, the only witnesses were my kids. The JoP who married us asked the kids if they were in favor of it. Sort of a variation on "who gives this woman...". It was done with a wink, a smile and we (not the kids) knew it was coming. It was part of the conversation on our vows and whether or not I wanted to "obey". Umm...that was a hell no! 

Mr. Xtian walked J down the aisle at her wedding. That wedding was a fiasco. His X couldn't take her eyes off my wedding rings and the X's husband couldn't keep his eyes off my cleavage. It was summer, I was wearing a halter-top style dress. K (granddaughter, then age 4) took her shoes off in the middle of the ceremony because they were bothering her. 

[fluffernutter]

Our daughter is engaged. Her fiancé talked to my husband before asking her. Not really asking permission, but just telling him he got a ring and was going to ask her soon. We felt it was so sweet that he told him, and my husband had the opportunity to tell him how much we liked him and were happy about them finding each other. 

[VelociRapture]

10 hours ago, fluffernutter said:

Our daughter is engaged. Her fiancé talked to my husband before asking her. Not really asking permission, but just telling him he got a ring and was going to ask her soon. We felt it was so sweet that he told him, and my husband had the opportunity to tell him how much we liked him and were happy about them finding each other. 

That’s what my husband did too. It was important to him to speak with my parents ahead of time because they were going to be his family and he wanted to start off on what he felt was the right foot, so I simply requested he ask for their blessing and not their permission (which he did.) My parents would have laughed and told him to ask me instead if he had asked for their permission to propose. 

[Queen]

I do think the father "giving his daughter away" to her spouse/walking her down the aisle if her spouse isn't being walked by their parent, is very patriarchal. The couple used to enter together in the 1980s and 90s over here, but since then American rom coms have convinced people that it's a "tradition" for the father to give his daughter away. I've always told my dad that if I ever marry, he won't accompany me down the aisle. Neither will my mom. And they are fine with it, they walked in together when they married in the 80s, just like people did back then. So for me it does feel like the new trend of the dad-walk is regressive. But not many Finnish woman of my generation agree with me and I've been in several fights about this particular subject ? I guess from their perspective it's doing something nice for their dad? But for me it just smells transfer of authority, even without "who gives this woman to this man" or whatever they say, that only confirms that it's about the woman changing headships. Now to be clear I don't think anyone who participate in this tradition is anti-feminist, I want to criticize the tradition itself. You do what fits you, not every single action in your life has to be feminist.

[Skeptic]

18 minutes ago, Queen said:

I do think the father "giving his daughter away" to her spouse/walking her down the aisle if her spouse isn't being walked by their parent, is very patriarchal. The couple used to enter together in the 1980s and 90s over here, but since then American rom coms have convinced people that it's a "tradition" for the father to give his daughter away. I've always told my dad that if I ever marry, he won't accompany me down the aisle. Neither will my mom. And they are fine with it, they walked in together when they married in the 80s, just like people did back then. So for me it does feel like the new trend of the dad-walk is regressive. But not many Finnish woman of my generation agree with me and I've been in several fights about this particular subject ? I guess from their perspective it's doing something nice for their dad? But for me it just smells transfer of authority, even without "who gives this woman to this man" or whatever they say, that only confirms that it's about the woman changing headships. Now to be clear I don't think anyone who participate in this tradition is anti-feminist, I want to criticize the tradition itself. You do what fits you, not every single action in your life has to be feminist.

I feel the same way about name changes upon marrying. My sister hyphenated her surname a year ago and I'm still giving her a hard time over it. I would have felt differently if he hyphenated as well, as if it were a union of their lives, but nope. Just her, going along with the transfer of ownership (lite). 

[louisa05]

On 12/5/2018 at 2:41 PM, nausicaa said:

I should have been clearer--it's not the walking down the aisle/kissing her on the cheek part.

Like @QuiverFullofBooks said, a Catholic ceremony won't have the spoken "Who gives this woman to this man" part. I believe it's a holdover from the Middle Ages when the Church wanted to be sure both participants were marrying of their own consent and weren't being forced into it (or so I read on a Catholic forum once--I could be wrong). 

In a weird twist of feminism, some Traditionalist Catholics-- to further set themselves apart from Protestants and what they see as watered down "Cafeteria Catholics"-- believe the bride should walk down the aisle completely by herself. I think that's a very minority position though. 

It could actually be considered grounds for annulment as for the marriage to be valid both partners must be there by their own wishes not the desire of someone else. Each partner must consent to the marriage. The point when each says "I _________ take you" is called "The Exchange of Consent" by the church. Link: http://www.foryourmarriage.org/the-marriage-vows/

We were given three choices for the processional in the marriage materials our Archdiocese uses. 1--The traditional wedding one where the groom and priest wait at the altar and the attendants process followed by the bride escorted by one or both of her parents, someone else or no one. 2--A full mass processional where attendants, bride and groom and parents if desired process in behind the cross and the priest is at the end. 3--priest at altar, then attendants process followed by groom escorted by parents then bride with parents. We did the first with just my dad. But as has been noted there is no "who gives this woman" thing happening. Dad is just someone to walk with. 

 

1 hour ago, Queen said:

I do think the father "giving his daughter away" to her spouse/walking her down the aisle if her spouse isn't being walked by their parent, is very patriarchal. The couple used to enter together in the 1980s and 90s over here, but since then American rom coms have convinced people that it's a "tradition" for the father to give his daughter away. I've always told my dad that if I ever marry, he won't accompany me down the aisle. Neither will my mom. And they are fine with it, they walked in together when they married in the 80s, just like people did back then. So for me it does feel like the new trend of the dad-walk is regressive. But not many Finnish woman of my generation agree with me and I've been in several fights about this particular subject ? I guess from their perspective it's doing something nice for their dad? But for me it just smells transfer of authority, even without "who gives this woman to this man" or whatever they say, that only confirms that it's about the woman changing headships. Now to be clear I don't think anyone who participate in this tradition is anti-feminist, I want to criticize the tradition itself. You do what fits you, not every single action in your life has to be feminist.

Now that my dad is gone, I'm glad I did it. It was a special moment with him before we went in. It meant a lot to him not because he thought he was giving me away or anything patriarchal, but because it was his special part of the wedding. Mothers of brides get more of that than dads do--dress shopping and all sorts of wedding planning stuff. That was his special part of the wedding. 

[tabitha2]

I was and am an Episcopalian. Baptized by the Priest as baby, Took First Holy communion and Confirmed by a Priest. If that’s not Christian what is? 

I was visiting my Aunt and Uncle when I was 12 or 13. She was a very very fervent Pentecostal at the time.. dresses, long hair and the works. Long story short she decided I was not “saved” and was going to hell  if I was not laid  hands on. She forced me into my cousins dress( about 3 sizes to big for me) I told her I was baptized and thought I was already cool with God and you could not force someone to go to church but after being bemused/nonplussed at the speaking in tongues And dancing in the aisles  I still got dragged by the arm to the pastor so as not to burn in coming end times. They thought I was laughing because I had found Jesus

 

[xenobia]

3 hours ago, Skeptic said:

I feel the same way about name changes upon marrying. My sister hyphenated her surname a year ago and I'm still giving her a hard time over it. I would have felt differently if he hyphenated as well, as if it were a union of their lives, but nope. Just her, going along with the transfer of ownership (lite). 

I think it depends on how name changes are made. Here in Sweden, the couple has several choices. They can, in no particular order of preference: 

1. Keep their names.

2. The husband takes the wifes name.

3. The wife takes the husbands name. 

4. They both take each others name. (As in Anna Johansson + Per Eriksson = Anna Johansson Eriksson and Per Johansson Eriksson). 

5. They take an old family name from either side. 

6. They create a new name (has to be approved by Skatteverket, our IRS). 

I've been married twice (still married to the second Mr Xenobia). I've done 5 and 3. 

 

[tabitha2]

That must be hell with family trees though. 

[VelociRapture]

4 hours ago, Skeptic said:

I feel the same way about name changes upon marrying. My sister hyphenated her surname a year ago and I'm still giving her a hard time over it. I would have felt differently if he hyphenated as well, as if it were a union of their lives, but nope. Just her, going along with the transfer of ownership (lite). 

Can I ask why you feel the need to criticize your sister for this? Especially since you mentioned you’ve been giving her a hard time for over a year at this point?

To me, Feminism is about equality and freedom of choice for people of all sexes, genders, races, religions, sexual orientations, religions, etc. If someone is being forced to change their name that’s just wrong, but I’m assuming that this was a choice your sister made willingly and I don’t see an issue with an adult willingly choosing to change their own name in that way. 

(I’m not sure where you’re located, so maybe customs are different where you are? And maybe there’s part of the story you haven’t mentioned - and don’t need to if you don’t want to - that might explain things more? I’m not trying to be rude, I’m genuinely just confused and want to understand your side.)

ETA: I should have written the first part to read more like “Why would you choose to criticize” rather than, “Can I ask why you feel the need to criticize”. I think the way I wrote it above sounds more combative than I intended and I just wanted to clarify that. 

[xenobia]

35 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

That must be hell with family trees though. 

Well, it's only been this way for the last 40 years or so. The name laws were changed gradually: first in 1963, and then again in 1982.  But it doesn't matter that much when you do your family research (I'm a keen amateur family researcher) - everything and everyone is on record: first in church books, and later on (from 1991) through Skatteverket, our IRS. 

My maiden name was Andersson, and yes - it's one of the most common names. When I married for the first time, my husband had earlier taken his mothers family/maiden name. It was a very pretty name, and less than 30 people had that name. So I was happy to change my name when we married. When we divorced I kept his name, but thought about changing to my mothers maiden name. Before I got to that, I met my current husband. He's a researcher (actually professor) and has published a lot of articles in his name, so he didn't want to change it. So I took his. Easy solution. 

So yes, technically I've taken my husbands name twice. But I could have chosen not to, both times. I wasn't forced to do so. I think that the fact that I had a very common last name, but a quite rare first name, also played a major part in my decision. 

[SorenaJ]

13 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

To me, Feminism is about equality and freedom of choice for people of all sexes, genders, races, religions, sexual orientations, religions, etc.

Just funny how it's so common for a wife to take her husband's surname, but extremely uncommon for a husband to take his wife. Or for a child to get their mother's surname. Coinkydink. Or not.

You would think it would be 50-50, but it's not. So clearly we have not achieved equality yet. 

Very weird how every woman's free choice just happen to be taking her husband's surname, but not the other way around. 

[Jana814]

My cousin’s kids have his wife’s last name. They have 2 boys she doesn’t have any brothers & she wanted her name to continue. 

[BernRul]

1 hour ago, SorenaJ said:

Just funny how it's so common for a wife to take her husband's surname, but extremely uncommon for a husband to take his wife. Or for a child to get their mother's surname. Coinkydink. Or not.

You would think it would be 50-50, but it's not. So clearly we have not achieved equality yet. 

Very weird how every woman's free choice just happen to be taking her husband's surname, but not the other way around. 

It's an uncomfortable topic, but if we're being honest, the Western European/American notion that a woman takes her husband's name is extremely sexist. It comes from the belief that women belong to men, and a husband is the head of the family. 

But then, a lot of our traditions are sexist when you look at them. I'm fine with my dad walking me down the aisle, but as many here pointed out, that's pretty sexist too. So in the modern world, we have to pick and choose, and work our own modern meaning into these traditions. 

The thing is, SorenaJ is right. I agree that we should respect women's choices, but it's really not a choice for a lot of women. The vast majority take their husband's name. I forget the statistic, but I think it's less than 10% of married women in America keep their names. I'm one who did, and I still grapple with societal pressure. I'm afraid that this will look bad when we adjust through marriage-- that a judge will say, clearly this is a fake marraige because she didn't take his name. There is an immense pressure on women that men don't face. That's sexist and a double standard, plain and simple. The societal pressure makes it so that it's not a choice for many women. I knew I wanted to keep my name since I was 7 (my big cousin, bless him, was the first person who told me that was even allowed) and even I almost caved and hyphened. 

If things were more equal, like if more husbands changed their names or more women kept theirs or more couples combined names, than I would say 100% it's a choice we should all respect. But it's not equal. The pressure is entirely on the woman, and I'm sorry, but there's no way that's not sexist. So I understand why some women might feel disappointed when others change their names; when you make an unpopular choice, when you go agaisnt society, it's rough, and it helps to see others do the same.  I just wish we lived in a society where it was more equal, and more families (meaning husband and wife both) made the choices that worked for their family, instead of feeling pressured to do what's expected. 

 

[CarrotCake]

In the US, when you marry and take your husbands name does your name really change in official documents? Because here it does not change in your passport and any governmental documentation, you are just allowed to use your husbands in non-governmental documentation. But for instance, if you book a flight you will still need to use your maiden name.

Most women choose to use a combination of both names in daily life but it is getting more common to use the maiden name in work and the husbands name in family business (e.g. childrens' school)

[Irishy]

When I married first, I took husband’s name. I massively regret it. We are almost divorced and changing name back on bank passport etc has been a huge pain. 

I also massively regret giving our children his surname. I feel like it writes me out of their history, at least in name. I raise them, I am 95% in charge of their every move, and yet they have his surname. 

Even if we’d stayed together, I would feel the same (and indeed did before it became a bad marriage). I am a person too, and my name was just erased from our family identity. And I was partly responsible for that. Never again. 

[Jana814]

My mother was an only child. My sister & I have 4 names First middle mother’s maiden name & the last name. Neither one of us are married so the idea of adding another name hasn’t come up yet. 

[BernRul]

1 minute ago, Irishy said:

When I married first, I took husband’s name. I massively regret it. We are almost divorced and changing name back on bank passport etc has been a huge pain. 

I also massively regret giving our children his surname. I feel like it writes me out of their history, at least in name. I raise them, I am 95% in charge of their every move, and yet they have his surname. 

Even if we’d stayed together, I would feel the same (and indeed did before it became a bad marriage). I am a person too, and my name was just erased from our family identity. And I was partly responsible for that. Never again. 

I'm sorry to hear that. It also makes me mad that a lot of mothers are expected to do the work, but the father's name gets past on, even if he's a deadbeat. I'd feel the same in your position-- like my identity was being erased. Like I wasn't myself any more. No woman should be made to feel that way. That's why I don't think we're at the point where it is a "choice" yet, at least not for a lot of women. 

 

52 minutes ago, Jana814 said:

My cousin’s kids have his wife’s last name. They have 2 boys she doesn’t have any brothers & she wanted her name to continue. 

I love this. In my family, there are only girls with our last name ( my dad and his only brother all had daughters. Like a ridiculous amount of daughters). At first I was just going to give my kids my husband's last name, which is extremely common for his ethnicity. Now I'm considering giving them both, since our names actually sound really nice together, and it would only be three syllables total. I'll have to talk to him about it, though I think he'll be cool with it. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

11 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

In the US, when you marry and take your husbands name does your name really change in official documents?

In my experience, yes. I suppose a woman could just use her husbands surname socially, but not change it legally, but that would be unusual and probably cause problems. Schools, for example, want their information on file to be the kids' and parents' legal names, even if that isn't how the person is usually addressed.

I did change my name to my husband's. I honestly don't have much of an emotional attachment to my father's surname. Now, if there were a family name that were passed down only through my maternal line, I would likely keep it.

[Meggo]

22 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

In the US, when you marry and take your husbands name does your name really change in official documents? Because here it does not change in your passport and any governmental documentation, you are just allowed to use your husbands in non-governmental documentation. But for instance, if you book a flight you will still need to use your maiden name.

 

I think it changes on most things (if you opt to change). Like you'd WANT it to be on your license, your passport, your official tax documents (so - work)... 

But I think I know people who kept their name professionally - but behind the scenes changed it. So at work - you might be Minnie Mouse because you always HAVE been known that way - but all the behind the scenes tax paperwork might have you as Minnie Jones because you changed your name when you married Jackson Jones. 

I didn't change my name and the only people who get confused by this are the people at my son's school. I'm regularly called Mrs. SonsLastName. And I get that's the name they're more familiar with - and I don't argue the point but... 

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

Just funny how it's so common for a wife to take her husband's surname, but extremely uncommon for a husband to take his wife. Or for a child to get their mother's surname. Coinkydink. Or not.

You would think it would be 50-50, but it's not. So clearly we have not achieved equality yet. 

Very weird how every woman's free choice just happen to be taking her husband's surname, but not the other way around. 

I wasn’t exactly asking about that. I was asking more about why she was continuing to give her sister a hard time over a year after the fact. That seems excessive to me. 

ETA: And yes, I’m aware there can be immense societal pressure on women in this area. Criticize societal norms all you want, but I don’t see the point in criticizing individual women for choosing to change or not change their names though.