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John David and Abbie 6: Flying Off to the Honeymoon


Coconut Flan

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2 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Lol! I grew up spelling my last name constantly. I learned early on to just start spelling it for people whether they asked me to or not. :pb_lol: I still have to spell my husband's last name since one letter is different than you’d expect, but it doesn’t really bug me to be honest.

My legal first name (I actually go by a nickname, which is a whole other set of problems we won't go into here) is an Irish one that was somewhat popular in the 1940s and 50s (common enough that there are several well known actresses, writers, and politicians' wives with the name). It's got some extra vowels to an English-speaking ear, but there's really only one way it's ever written. Other kids my age never had the name, but adults always knew how to spell it.

Now that I'm an adult, no one under the age of thirty has any idea of how to spell this name. I told my name to a pharmacy tech the other day to pull a prescription, and he stared at me like he had never heard the name before in his entire life. It's just an interesting generational thing I've noticed. 

I was used to spelling my last name but now just spell the whole thing. Damn kids these days...

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8 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Why do husbands never take the wife's last name, even if their surname is long, unpronounceable, doesn't sound nice? You never hear it the other way around. 

Not gonna lie, often the reason women cite for changing their surname when they get married is "well that's just what you do." Really?! That's your reason for changing your surname? Doesn't seem like much thought went into that. 

The same with titles? Why do women's title change when they get married? Like why would they have to change their identity but men wouldn't? There are three different titles for women, and one for men?? That's bullshit. 

If I ever become a teacher in UK, I'm going by the title Mx - because it's gender neutral, and doesn't change when you get married. Ohh, and I would love for the kids to go home and tell their parents about it, and for the parents to be miffed and post about that horrible teacher Mx. lastname on mumsnet. 

"I'm doing this and that because it's tradition" -  well so was slavery and diagnosing women with hysteria, doesn't mean it's a good idea. 

When my cousin got married, her husband took her last name.  
I took my practice husband's last name because we already had a kid together and I wanted to match names.  If I marry the current long term boyfriend, I will probably take his name, too, because I absolutely adore him and want it.

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Yes I always hear women say "well my surname is not that important to me, I can change it" or "I don't like my surname so I'll be happy to not go by that name anymore", but I've never heard a man say anything like that. Of course since most my friends are women and this is a topic that is often brought up among friends, I might just not have stumbled upon a man who thinks that yet, they might very well exist in droves. Many women also say they'll take their husband's name so that everyone in the family has the same name and it'll be easier for their future kids. But the man could just as well take his wife's name then! 

Im not a big fan of making people feel guilty for their choices though, you don't have to cling to your surname if you hate it just for the sake of feminism! I might challenge them a little, but ultimately it's their free choice and they are the ones who are going to live with it, not me. Although one could question if free choices even exist under patriarchy, some feminist scholars think they don't, which is an interesting although depressing thought. 

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7 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Why do husbands never take the wife's last name, even if their surname is long, unpronounceable, doesn't sound nice? You never hear it the other way around. 

Not gonna lie, often the reason women cite for changing their surname when they get married is "well that's just what you do." Really?! That's your reason for changing your surname? Doesn't seem like much thought went into that. 

The same with titles? Why do women's title change when they get married? Like why would they have to change their identity but men wouldn't? There are three different titles for women, and one for men?? That's bullshit. 

If I ever become a teacher in UK, I'm going by the title Mx - because it's gender neutral, and doesn't change when you get married. Ohh, and I would love for the kids to go home and tell their parents about it, and for the parents to be miffed and post about that horrible teacher Mx. lastname on mumsnet. 

"I'm doing this and that because it's tradition" -  well so was slavery and diagnosing women with hysteria, doesn't mean it's a good idea. 

Perhaps some of this (slight) disagreement is cultural? You mentioned being in the UK and I’m not sure how things stand there, but I’m in the States and I’m personally much more concerned with whether my toddler will one day be able to access the medical care* she needs - like abortion or birth control - than I am with whether she’ll be pressured to change her name if she ultimately decides to marry. I think both are very valid areas for discussion and debate, but one is absolutely more important to me personally at the moment considering how things are politically. 

*Just using that as an example since there are many other areas I’m concerned about as well - such as sexual assault, employment discrimination, pay disparity (both between men and women as well as between white wimen and minority women), black women being far more likely to suffer fatal complications during pregnancy and birth than white women, black women have a higher rate of premature births than other racial groups, etc. 

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I changed my mind because it was important that we have the same one and my husband is adopted. We seriously consider going with my name as it is dying out but determined it would be too hard on his parents since they don't have the genetic ties they might feel he was rejecting them more strongly.

I did have people pick on this decision so badly I almost Uninvited one of my bridesmaids. It makes me really angry when people can't let it go with a choice we made together and frankly is none of their business. Stop bugging your sister about it if it's been a year. That's just rude.

 

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18 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Perhaps some of this (slight) disagreement is cultural? You mentioned being in the UK and I’m not sure how things stand there, but I’m in the States and I’m personally much more concerned with whether my toddler will one day be able to access the medical care* she needs - like abortion or birth control - than I am with whether she’ll be pressured to change her name if she ultimately decides to marry. I think both are very valid areas for discussion and debate, but one is absolutely more important to me personally at the moment considering how things are politically. 

 *Just using that as an example since there are many other areas I’m concerned about as well - such as sexual assault, employment discrimination, pay disparity (both between men and women as well as between white wimen and minority women), black women being far more likely to suffer fatal complications during pregnancy and birth than white women, black women have a higher rate of premature births than other racial groups, etc. 

Well, we can definitely talk about those as well. Men thinking women are beneath them. They all tie together. It just hurts so much hearing men saying "I would never take my wife's surname - my mates would laugh at me". Just because an issue is small and doesn't directly change our day to day lives, doesn't mean it's not important, and doesn't influence the other, larger issues. 

And well yeah, I'm not worried about my future hypothetical children accessing birth control or abortion, because why wouldn't they be able to access those? For me, getting birth control was as easy as brushing my teeth, and I feel really sad for people for whom that is not the case. 

(But being an EU citizen in the UK, I am slightly concerned about Tories treating our actual country like a board game, and when they lose they just flip it over and go home)

 

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I know a couple whose husband didn't take his wife's last name, but they gave her last name to their children, and gave their oldest son the husband's last name as his first name. 

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Took Mr. Xtian's last name. Never thought twice. I had gone back to my maiden name as a FU to the X...however, that one is long, difficult to spell and forever mispronounced. Mr. Xtian's last name is 6 letters, damn near impossible to mispronounce, goes with my first name (start with same letter) and not terribly ethnic. Worked for me!!!!

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My Mom is extremely old fashioned and when I was addressing my Christmas cards, decided to pick a fight. I always address my friends as Jane and John Doe, both of their names go on the cards. My Mom berated me quite hard because she thought that all married couples should be Mr. and Mrs. John Doe. I find that way a bit old fashioned and it really doesn't fit with my friends. They both took their husbands names after really thinking about it. I mentioned that they thought about not taking their husband's last name, which was a whole different rant. My Dad was eyerolling at this point and I said "If I should ever get married, I will keep my last name because Dad is my favourite person and his family are great people who I always want to be associated with." That finally shut her down. I am sure she will start the discussion back up again sometime...

A couple I knew from university got married this summer and combined their last names. It was odd to see at first, but I think it's really nice.

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29 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

 

If I really wanted to cut down the writing I could probably just switch to “The Smith & Doe Family” or “The Doe and Smith Family” instead. Regardless, I think using the names of each person is important and I don’t think it should really be that hard to figure out if you give it a tiny bit of thought. I’m sorry that your Aunt figure (and others) hasn’t been supportive of you. 

Thank you. This woman is whackadoodle so I really do NOT care what she thinks most days. But thank you.

When I sent her a thank you note for a wedding gift - I apparently thanked her for WATER glasses not WINE glasses and she called my mom to tell her and to ask for another thank you note. So if she disapproves of my life choices - I do actually feel that means I'm doing something right!
 

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I took my husbands last name when we married. It’s been several years and I still don’t love how my first name sounds with it, but he’s the “last of his line” and it was important to him; I’m not the last of my line/name, so I relented. I only really wish I’d kept my maiden name when my depression flairs up, but then I start regretting most things that are ultimately inconsequential for me in the long run.

My childhood best friend added her married name as a second last name, not hyphenated, and has said it’s been a pain in the ass since day 1 and highly regrets it. She hasn’t registered for a single thing since marriage and had them get her name correct on the first or second try. 

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In Denmark, most people have two surnames (one from their mum and one from their dad), they will usually choose to use just one of them in day-to-day life, whichever one they prefer. When they get married, they'll usually keep one of their own, and take one of their spouse's, and the spouse will do the same. When my mum and step-dad got married, she changed her last name from Smith Jones to Smith Brown and my step-dad changed his name from Miller Brown to Smith Brown*. 

Alternatively, they each keep their own surname, and if they were to have children, they would get one surname from each of the parents. 

*not their real surnames 

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15 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Well, we can definitely talk about those as well. Men thinking women are beneath them. They all tie together. It just hurts so much hearing men saying "I would never take my wife's surname - my mates would laugh at me". Just because an issue is small and doesn't directly change our day to day lives, doesn't mean it's not important, and doesn't influence the other, larger issues. 

And well yeah, I'm not worried about my future hypothetical children accessing birth control or abortion, because why wouldn't they be able to access those? For me, getting birth control was as easy as brushing my teeth, and I feel really sad for people for whom that is not the case. 

(But being an EU citizen in the UK, I am slightly concerned about Tories treating our actual country like a board game, and when they lose they just flip it over and go home)

 

I completely agree. I think everyone here is likely much more on the same page when it comes to this issue than it may sometimes seem. I figure if some people focus on X issue and others focus more on issue Y then we’ll hopefully make progress on both at the same time. :) 

And I’m pretty sure that part about board games described parts of the US perfectly right now, specifically places like Wisconsin - the Republicans lost the Governor’s race there and the state Legislature apparently passed (it is attempting to pass) limits on the incoming Democratic Governor’s powers. If that doesn’t scream “I’m a sore loser!” then I don’t know what does.

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My husband was willing to take my name, and this was more than 20 years ago. He did not care at all. I ended up taking his name instead, because I felt more strongly about it than he did. (I wanted to leave my adopted name behind, but also did not want to go back to my birth name.) 

I accept any woman’s choice even if I don’t agree with the reasoning behind it. 

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Here, women usually take their husbands surname when they get married. I have never seen a case of first marriages where the woman kept her name, on her second marriage yes, but not first. So you will often find women who are married for the second or third time but still have the surname of their first husband, which I find so weird, but I guess it is a legal hustle to retake your birth surname after divorce so they just leave it at that.

Plus, women who refuse to take their husbands last name upon marriage are seen as bad bad bad feminists, same with double names. So there is huge social pressure on young women to take their husbands name.

 

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When I got married, we considered him taking my name, me taking his, and us both getting a new name.

The new name turned out to not be an option because of the state I married in. 

I ended up taking his name because it was easier at the time. 

Now, we have been married long enough that my married name has been longer than my maiden. I don't regret taking his name and I like that people (from the past) can't look me up by name on fb by name.

I think if I were to get married again, I would make sure to be in a state where we could choose our own new last name.

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1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

I’m in my early 30s at the moment and I changed my name after marrying in my late-20s. I considered keeping my maiden name, but decided not to for a few reasons:

- I was mainly considering it for my father’s sake. His last name will die out of our branch of the family after my generation because three of us are females who chose to give our kids their fathers’ last names and the remaining male chose to take our mother’s much more common and Irish maiden name when he was transitioning. Keeping it simply for my father's sake so I could delay the inevitable was not a good enough reason for me.*

- I like my maiden name, but it’s a harsh, long and rare in my area German name. Everyone I know with that name in my area was related to me and I didn’t like being known as the child/sister/niece/cousin of so-and-so my entire life. My husband’s last name was a musical sounding Italian name that was more common around here and that appealed to me a great deal. So this was a big consideration for me. 

- The least important reason was because I liked the idea of having the same last name as my husband and future kids. I already liked husband’s name and we felt it would go really well with the baby names we liked, so it made sense to me to change my name. 

Not every woman feels pressured to change her name. Some of us choose to do so because we genuinely want to. It would be great if people could just butt out and stop commentating on what name anyone else does or does not choose to use, but I suppose this is just another area where women in some cultures just can’t fucking win regardless of what they decide (though I’ll always admire that those who keep their names or dontchoose to take their husband’s names definitely get more criticism for that choice.)

*My dad did not pressure me by the way. He had said a few times that he wished the name would be continued somehow, but that was it. I think he’s come around to the idea of family traditions and stories continuing to be passed down being more important than the actual name being continued and I’m more than happy to do that. 

When I married, I took my husband's last name because I was the scapegoat child and wanted nothing to do with my maiden name, not with my dad and certainly not with my abusive mother or golden child brother.

By the time I needed to decide what name to have on my JD, I included my maiden name so the diploma reads first name middle name maiden name married name. My dad and I had made peace and frankly, he was dying. When I saw him after I walked across the stage and got my diploma, he had tears in his eyes and asked why I used my maiden name, too. I told him it was to honor the investment his craps game winnings that financed my first year in college made.

My license to practice, on the other hand, is first name middle name married name.

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8 minutes ago, eveandadam said:

Plus, women who refuse to take their husbands last name upon marriage are seen as bad bad bad feminists, same with double names. So there is huge social pressure on young women to take their husbands name.

I worked with a young woman whose surname started with the letter W. She got engaged to a man whose surname started with a G. I excitedly told her, "Now you get to move up in the alphabet, like I did!" She gave me THE most withering glare, and said, "I'm not changing my last name."

 

lol

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19 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Can I ask why you feel the need to criticize your sister for this? Especially since you mentioned you’ve been giving her a hard time for over a year at this point?

To me, Feminism is about equality and freedom of choice for people of all sexes, genders, races, religions, sexual orientations, religions, etc. If someone is being forced to change their name that’s just wrong, but I’m assuming that this was a choice your sister made willingly and I don’t see an issue with an adult willingly choosing to change their own name in that way. 

(I’m not sure where you’re located, so maybe customs are different where you are? And maybe there’s part of the story you haven’t mentioned - and don’t need to if you don’t want to - that might explain things more? I’m not trying to be rude, I’m genuinely just confused and want to understand your side.)

ETA: I should have written the first part to read more like “Why would you choose to criticize” rather than, “Can I ask why you feel the need to criticize”. I think the way I wrote it above sounds more combative than I intended and I just wanted to clarify that. 

We’re twin sisters and we grew up in NYC, among classmates with mothers who largely kept their name. We’re on the same page on most feminist issues, and it was a shock that she felt differently about it.

Bottom line, I take issue with the unfairness of a woman legally and socially adopting a new identity while the man remains unchanged as the “default” partner. Why wasn’t her given surname good enough for her, or for him to adopt in a hyphenation of his own? Why did she feel she had to take his name to feel tied to him, while he’s content to remain unaltered?

I don’t understand why she felt compelled to create an 18-character monstrosity as a compromise, especially because she was the only one compromising. 

ETA: We’re in our 20s and both of our parents are dead (as is her husband’s father) so their courthouse wedding with only immediate family was my favorite wedding ever — the couple, his mom, me, and my brother. I did approve overall, but the name thing was a disappointment for me on a personal level. 

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My SO and I have been together for ten years and if we ever get married (marriage just isn't important to me in the slightest) I'll probably take his last name. I despise my last name. My real father was a no good, very bad man and he was also adopted by a family that was even worse than him.  So the last name just doesn't mean anything to me at all. t's not even like I can use the name to research a family tree or find long lost family members. 

Plus, I do like the idea of me, SO, and our son to eventually all have one shared last name. SO's family is amazing and they *are* my family now. 

When I have told people this in the past the judgments are usually quick and harsh. People tend to assume that because I'm not very traditional (not married after 10 years) that obviously it would apply to name changing too. It's annoying. 

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I really don't understand how people have a problem with addressing holiday cards to people who don't have the same last name. Do they never send cards to unmarried couples?  

I'm addressing holiday cards today and this is my system: 

If a couple has same last name: first name of person I know better + first name of other person last name

If they have different last names: full name of person I know better on first line, full name of other person on second line

If they have the same name and children: last name family

If they have different last names and children: last name 1/last name 2 family

Not rocket science!

I kept my name when I got married, in part because it's my name and it would be weird to be anything else, and in part because I want to pass it on if we have children. I really want to get rid of the idea that names primarily belong to fathers/husbands. 

I'm not going to criticize anyone personally for their choice, but I do think this is not a free choice at the moment.  Going against gender norms is never really a free choice since there's so much pressure to do otherwise. 

 

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I’m in my early 30s and chose to take my husband’s name. It is common and easy to spell and pronounce. I did love my maiden name, but it was difficult to spell and pronounce. I’m a teacher and in my profession I prefer my married name. Most of the married women my age who I know also took their husbands’ names. 

I also know several women of varying marital statuses who have chosen to change their given surname to the surname of someone who raised them, including step-fathers, grandfathers, and step-mothers.

Somone asked about whether your surname changes on all documents when you change your name in the US or if it’s informal. My experience is that your name does legally change, but you have to do all the footwork for documentation. So no one just sent me an updated driver’s license and passport, I had to change  (and pay for the change) myself both for public documents and private ones (credit cards, bank accounts, etc.)

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My friend changed her middle name to her maiden name and took her husband’s last name. I changed my name. I never really thought much about it. It doesn’t take away my identity or that I’m my parebt’s daughter or whatever. To me it’s abiut becoming our own unit and now that unit has 3 little units and it’s nice that we all have the same name and We’re just the ‘xxxxx family’

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I frequently address things to "John and Jane" or "Jane Smith and John" for couples with different last names. Occasionally I write both last names, but most of them are friends near my age who I know well, and it doesn't bother them that I take the less writing way 

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38 minutes ago, Skeptic said:

We’re twin sisters and we grew up in NYC, among classmates with mothers who largely kept their name. We’re on the same page on most feminist issues, and it was a shock that she felt differently about it.

Bottom line, I take issue with the unfairness of a woman legally and socially adopting a new identity while the man remains unchanged as the “default” partner. Why wasn’t her given surname good enough for her, or for him to adopt in a hyphenation of his own? Why did she feel she had to take his name to feel tied to him, while he’s content to remain unaltered?

I don’t understand why she felt compelled to create an 18-character monstrosity as a compromise, especially because she was the only one compromising. 

ETA: We’re in our 20s and both of our parents are dead (as is her husband’s father) so their courthouse wedding with only immediate family was my favorite wedding ever — the couple, his mom, me, and my brother. I did approve overall, but the name thing was a disappointment for me on a personal level. 

You really need to get over this, this is petty AF and honestly none of your damn business. It's her life let HER live it her way. You can argue feminism till the cows come home but you aren't being very feministic by demanding other women live life the way YOU think it should be lived.  

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