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John David and Abbie 6: Flying Off to the Honeymoon


Coconut Flan

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(I'm close to 50 and living in California for reference).

I have friends with just about every permutation you can think of for surnames but the 2 most common are (no surprise) 1. woman changed at marriage to man's, followed by 2. woman kept hers but the kids have the man's surname.

(I changed to my husband's but did consider my options.  I wasn't established in a career yet so didn't have that as a reason to keep my maiden name, and I actually liked his surname better... it's less common in the US but still fairly easy to spell and pronounce, and looks nice). 

One anecdote - I was acquaintances and then friends with one family for several years before I realized that the husband had changed his name at marriage.  I probably should have worked it out sooner... I knew she had grown up Jewish and he had converted and changed his first name when he converted, and they have a very Jewish-sounding last name.  But I still didn't get it until I met her parents at their son's Bar Mitzvah (who had the same surname as they do).   

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My parents weren’t married when they had me, or my brother. They got married when Dad was ill, because they realised that things would be easier financially and legally on my mother if Dad died or something happened. (He’s very much alive, thankfully!) When they did marry, Mum kept her maiden name. My brother and I have Dad’s surname. 

If I get married I’ll probably keep my surname, and if I have kids I may combine the names/double-barrel the surnames. Apparently you can run into issues if you take your kids on holiday and they have a different surname to you. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2018/08/06/having-a-different-surname-to-your-child-leaves-parents-like-me-vulnerable-at-the-border-7801542/amp/ I don’t know if this is just a U.K. thing. 

 

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@CheetahI know several people who’s husband’s converted to Judaism for marriage. They didn’t change their last names although one of them has a Italian last name. 

I have a dog client who’s husband is not Jewish although the kids are being raised Jewish. According to her sister it was important for her to raise them Jewish and he was totally fine with it. He didn’t see a need to covert & she was ok with that. 

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1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

 

And I’m pretty sure that part about board games described parts of the US perfectly right now, specifically places like Wisconsin - the Republicans lost the Governor’s race there and the state Legislature apparently passed (it is attempting to pass) limits on the incoming Democratic Governor’s powers. If that doesn’t scream “I’m a sore loser!” then I don’t know what does.

Michigan too...

3 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

 

If I get married I’ll probably keep my surname, and if I have kids I may combine the names/double-barrel the surnames. Apparently you can run into issues if you take your kids on holiday and they have a different surname to you. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2018/08/06/having-a-different-surname-to-your-child-leaves-parents-like-me-vulnerable-at-the-border-7801542/amp/ I don’t know if this is just a U.K. thing. 

 

Not just a UK thing. I live on the border between Canada & the US. I live in Canada (as an American) and Hubs & Boy are both Canadian. (Boy could have both passports but given our current state of government - thought I'd spare him for now). I kept my name when I married - Boy has his Dad's last name.

And I was crossing into the US to see my parents years ago. Boy was maybe one. It's not uncommon for me to cross, did it for work every day for years, did it dating every weekend for years - most of the border people recognize me (one got "mad" that I didn't tell her when I had gotten engaged - ha!)
But one day I got a guy who was NOT happy that I had a different last name than my son. I didn't have the birth cert with me because I had his passport (didn't think I needed both). He said "Well - I can't ask him who you are now - can I? How do I know you're not trying to steal him? How do I know he's yours? Does his dad know where he is? What if I called him?" 
I said if you call him - he'll probably say "oh that's right - I forgot they were going to my in laws house today. tell them to have fun." 

Seriously - I had to find something "official" that had my name and husbands name on it to prove that I was related to my son. It was my car insurance paper but he said I needed a notorized letter from my husband to cross in future. 

But my SIL with Hubs last name - THEY wouldn't have been hassled?? 
It's less of a problem know because Boy is five and can tell them who I am I guess....

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1 hour ago, Skeptic said:

We’re twin sisters and we grew up in NYC, among classmates with mothers who largely kept their name. We’re on the same page on most feminist issues, and it was a shock that she felt differently about it.

Bottom line, I take issue with the unfairness of a woman legally and socially adopting a new identity while the man remains unchanged as the “default” partner. Why wasn’t her given surname good enough for her, or for him to adopt in a hyphenation of his own? Why did she feel she had to take his name to feel tied to him, while he’s content to remain unaltered?

I don’t understand why she felt compelled to create an 18-character monstrosity as a compromise, especially because she was the only one compromising. 

ETA: We’re in our 20s and both of our parents are dead (as is her husband’s father) so their courthouse wedding with only immediate family was my favorite wedding ever — the couple, his mom, me, and my brother. I did approve overall, but the name thing was a disappointment for me on a personal level. 

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I could tell this was an emotional topic for you from the way you wrote your original post. I’m guessing that the fact that your parents are both deceased (I’m very sorry for your loss!) and the fact that your sister is your twin may be playing a big role in how you feel about your sister’s choice. 

I think you do need to take a small step back though. Another poster, I believe it was @Queen, said earlier that people don’t need to be a feminist in every area of their lives and I agree with her on that. I think it’s commendable to call out sexism in societal norms and work to change those norms, but I also don’t think it’s necessarily fair to hold it against an individual woman if she makes a choice you don’t agree with. This was your sister’s decision to make and she had the right to do what she felt was right for her. 

(And out of curiosity - did she really want to keep her last name and opted to hyphenate to make her husband happy? Or was this something she didn’t really care about? I wasn’t sure based off your post, but I feel like that could be affecting your feelings about it as well.)

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18 minutes ago, Jana814 said:

@CheetahI know several people who’s husband’s converted to Judaism for marriage. They didn’t change their last names although one of them has a Italian last name. 

I have a dog client who’s husband is not Jewish although the kids are being raised Jewish. According to her sister it was important for her to raise them Jewish and he was totally fine with it. He didn’t see a need to covert & she was ok with that. 

I'm sure most people don't change their name to make it sound more ethnically Jewish if they convert.  I know in the case of this family that the dad had had a troubled relationship with his own father so I'm guessing he was kind of looking for a fresh start across the board.

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15 minutes ago, Meggo said:

Michigan too...

Not just a UK thing. I live on the border between Canada & the US. I live in Canada (as an American) and Hubs & Boy are both Canadian. (Boy could have both passports but given our current state of government - thought I'd spare him for now). I kept my name when I married - Boy has his Dad's last name.

And I was crossing into the US to see my parents years ago. Boy was maybe one. It's not uncommon for me to cross, did it for work every day for years, did it dating every weekend for years - most of the border people recognize me (one got "mad" that I didn't tell her when I had gotten engaged - ha!)
But one day I got a guy who was NOT happy that I had a different last name than my son. I didn't have the birth cert with me because I had his passport (didn't think I needed both). He said "Well - I can't ask him who you are now - can I? How do I know you're not trying to steal him? How do I know he's yours? Does his dad know where he is? What if I called him?" 
I said if you call him - he'll probably say "oh that's right - I forgot they were going to my in laws house today. tell them to have fun." 

Seriously - I had to find something "official" that had my name and husbands name on it to prove that I was related to my son. It was my car insurance paper but he said I needed a notorized letter from my husband to cross in future. 

But my SIL with Hubs last name - THEY wouldn't have been hassled?? 
It's less of a problem know because Boy is five and can tell them who I am I guess....

Ha, I live on the border too and sometimes you just get an asshole guard (I’m sure I don’t have to tell you that). I got grilled going across with my dad one time even though we were both wearing hockey jerseys, we have the same last name and it’s very obvious that we’re father and daughter. I feel like I was also an adult at the time but I’m not sure. They’re extra paranoid about certain things like young women travelling alone with older men, kids with different last names than the adults... It makes sense, but it can be a hassle. At least I don’t smoke pot, that’s going to be a huge nightmare for a ton of people...

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3 minutes ago, Cheetah said:

I'm sure most people don't change their name to make it sound more ethnically Jewish if they convert.  I know in the case of this family that the dad had had a troubled relationship with his own father so I'm guessing he was kind of looking for a fresh start across the board.

That actually makes sense why he would change his last name. 

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I saw the 'hot' tag and thought there was news... Thread drift can be as misleading as a baggy shirt on a fundie woman who's just eaten a giant burrito.

Anyways, they're obviously back from the honeymoon, but where did they go? I feel like these two have kept this quiet better than previous Duggar couples.

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Neither my husband nor I changed our names when we married. I liked my name and felt like it was part of my identity. 

We did, though, hyphenate both of our sons' names. It was important to both of us to pass our names along. My last name went first because that's what I wanted.

People don't make a lot of comments about it, but they often do assume the boys only have DH's last name. That annoys me more than anything, since my last name went first. 

The hypenated last name is pretty long (13 letter total), but I've seen longer last names that were single names. 

DH and I are both feminists and we want our boys to be, as well. I hope, if they marry and have children, they will pass at least one of our names along, but I will understand if they pass on their spouses' last names. 

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3 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

Why do husbands never take the wife's last name, even if their surname is long, unpronounceable, doesn't sound nice? You never hear it the other way around. 

This. If things were truly equal, men would seriously consider these things, not just woman. But the fact that 99.9% of the time it's only women says a lot about our society and the sexism that still lingers there. 

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In Australia, you need the permission of both parents to leave the country. My little cousin gets to stay with her grandmother over christmas while her mother and stepdad go overseas. Because they couldn't find the dad or maybe he wouldn't sign... either way, the kid can't go with them. (She's going to be so spoilt at christmas as she'll be the only little one there haha)

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I did not take my husband’s name when we married in 1977.  He was fine with that and it has not been an issue between us in the 41 years we have been married. My maiden name is a English sounding one, easy to spell, his is more ethnic. Our children have his last name, one has my maiden name as a middle one.  We never had problems with schools, doctors because of this. 

Our families, however, could not deal with it.  We never receive a card or invitation that is addressed to us with our individual names.  Really how hard is it to write a card to Mary Doe &  Jon Brown instead of Mr & Mrs Jon Brown?  But this is just social conventional  posturing which is ultimately harmless.

But things got really complicated when my mother died and her will, stock certificates etc.  used only  my husband’s last name for me.  I have no ID or legal identity using that name.  I had to get my marriage certicate and have certified copies made for the court plus name as known as affadavits done.  It was not a big estate but many hours of time were spent proving my identity.

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43 minutes ago, Meggo said:

But one day I got a guy who was NOT happy that I had a different last name than my son.

This is the reason why married or not, I'll change my last name to match his and Confetti's. A grad school classmate in an interracial marriage with a Canadian woman (who hadn't changed her name) had to drive home from NYC, get their child's paperwork, marriage certificate and drive to the border. His daughter was traumatized by all of the questioning.

I'm not attached to my last name and it's certainly not worth 10 hours of stress/ documentation proof. I'll just drop my middle name, toss my maiden in there and take a new one.  

One of my closest friends has a hyphenated last name, her first husband's and her current husband, so that she matches all of her children. She views it as easier, especially if she's picking up her step kids.

People make their own choices for various reasons and that is okay. I don't think I'm any less of a feminist, I just view it as pragmatics. 

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3 hours ago, Closed Womb said:

I changed my name to my late husband’s last name.  It’s a good name, it made him very happy, and I’m fine with the tradition.  I changed my middle name to my last name.  

He has since passed and I’m STILL proving who I am.  Sometimes I need a marriage certificate and a death certificate for the same transaction.  

My Prince Charming II and I plan to marry.  I told him that I’d be happy to be known by his name socially, but legally I’m keeping Mr. Womb’s name.  It’s just too much of a pain.  (It helps that PCII is also widowed from a happy marriage, so he’s not insulted by the practicality of keeping another man’s name.)

Yep. My daughter says that in a foreign country the hassle and costs with changing one's name isn't worth it-

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4 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Not every woman feels pressured to change her name. Some of us choose to do so because we genuinely want to. It would be great if people could just butt out and stop commentating on what name anyone else does or does not choose to use, but I suppose this is just another area where women in some cultures just can’t fucking win regardless of what they decide (though I’ll always admire that those who keep their names or dontchoose to take their husband’s names definitely get more criticism for that choice.)

I agree with most of this. No one should tell women what to do, it's none of their buisness. She's the one who ultimately knows what's best for her and her family. I do disagree that it's a situation where women can't win, because right now it's still so rare for women in America to keep their names. So the women who go against that societal expectation can't really be compared to women who do what about 90-95% of other married women do. Maybe one day, when it's more balanced, but I don't think we're there yet.

I also agree with @SorenaJ when she asked why men don't consider picking a name that's easier to spell or pronounce. It's such a sexist double standard, which is my main issue. Ideally, men and women would both take this into consideration, instead of the expectation being overwhelmingly on the woman.

When individual women give their reasons for changing their name, I get it. I respect it. I don't think all women should keep their names if they actually do want to change it. I'm angry that a sexist tradition is what is expected, when what it really should be is an option. 

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I've been married over a year at this point, and still maintain my maiden name. Haven't really caught any flack for it, from either set of parents or friends who did change their names. I plan to change it eventually (Hubs has a really cool, ethnic last name), but honestly I've just been lazy. Also, I received my PhD and have published journal articles in my maiden name, and I like sharing the Dr. *Smith title with my Dad (who also has his PhD).

*not our real last name.

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15 minutes ago, BernRul said:

I agree with most of this. No one should tell women what to do, it's none of their buisness. She's the one who ultimately knows what's best for her and her family. I do disagree that it's a situation where women can't win, because right now it's still so rare for women in America to keep their names. So the women who go against that societal expectation can't really be compared to women who do what about 90-95% of other married women do. Maybe one day, when it's more balanced, but I don't think we're there yet.

I also agree with @SorenaJ when she asked why men don't consider picking a name that's easier to spell or pronounce. It's such a sexist double standard, which is my main issue. Ideally, men and women would both take this into consideration, instead of the expectation being overwhelmingly on the woman.

When individual women give their reasons for changing their name, I get it. I respect it. I don't think all women should keep their names if they actually do want to change it. I'm angry that a sexist tradition is what is expected, when what it really should be is an option. 

That’s pretty much what I said though. Women are likely to get criticized by someone regardless of what they choose, but I fully admit that women who choose not to change their names definitely get far worse treatment, far more often than those who do. 

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I hyphenated my name when I got married. It seemed like the easiest thing to do. My last name is of a medium length and my husband's is short so it isn't too cumbersome for me although sometimes it can be a bit of a mouthful. But since it is technically not a legal name change where I live but just an assumed name, I still use my maiden name for work. For other official stuff, the hyphenated name is there but sometimes I just give my maiden name for stuff and sometimes my husband's name. Being called Mrs. husband's name doesn't really bother me when it happens.

Part of the reason that I decided to hyphenate my name is because I wanted to sort of have the same last name as my future children and I did not want them to have hyphenated names. I felt like a hyphenated name might be a big hassle for them. I use my middle name rather than my first name. My parents have always called me by my middle name. It is a huge pain in the neck. At any sort of government agency or other official type thing, I never get called by my proper name always my first name. Even at places like my bank where I have told them over and over again that I use my middle name, it still seems to be a problem sometimes. So I'm sensitive to name hassles and didn't want my kids to have any (or at least any that I could foresee). This way I have any burden from a hyphenated name and it does make travelling easier to have sort of the same last name.

No one really seems to care that I didn't completely change my name. I think my in-laws were a bit surprised at first but they seem to have gotten over it.

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44 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

That’s pretty much what I said though. Women are likely to get criticized by someone regardless of what they choose, but I fully admit that women who choose not to change their names definitely get far worse treatment, far more often than those who do. 

True, true. Guess I couldn't resist giving my spin on it ?

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I married incredibly young and naive. I didn't think twice about taking his name - it's "what is done." The marriage didn't last and changing it back was a PAIN. It was a pain to change it in the first place - social security, drivers license, bank information, school, etc. … After I changed it back I said never again.

Thankfully I married a wonderful man who doesn't put stock in patriarchal traditions. We considered hyphenating our names, but that name became far too long. He kept his and I kept mine and we've had no issues. He was willing to change his to mine, but why bother? I don't understand why anyone thinks they have to change names at all, children or not, but I want everyone to have the choice to do so!

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My husband didn't care either way if I took his name. He claims he knew when he met me I wasn't likely to take his name if we got married. But we did agree to kids having his last name. I wanted to have my last name be a middle name, but when we adopted our boy - we promised birth mom we'd have his middle name be the name she wanted to give him. And two middle names seemed silly. Now my last name is also an animal - let's say.... Peacock. So my family has always collected peacock things and shirts etc. and we have one shirt that alludes to the fact he's from a peacock family - so we'll always have him in that stuff but.. I'm okay with him having his dad's last name... but mine is way shorter and would be easier to say! 

Plus- I did all the moving to another country paperwork - I wasn't about to then change my name... MORE paperwork? No thanks.

 

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1 hour ago, BernRul said:

I agree with most of this. No one should tell women what to do, it's none of their buisness. She's the one who ultimately knows what's best for her and her family. I do disagree that it's a situation where women can't win, because right now it's still so rare for women in America to keep their names. So the women who go against that societal expectation can't really be compared to women who do what about 90-95% of other married women do. Maybe one day, when it's more balanced, but I don't think we're there yet.

 

Actually, almost 20% of American women now keep--or hyphenate-- their last names upon marriage: https://www.miamiherald.com/living/liv-columns-blogs/ana-veciana-suarez/article154558944.html 

And the older you are, and the more educational degrees you have, the more likely you are to retain your birthname when you marry.

 

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29 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

Actually, almost 20% of American women now keep--or hyphenate-- their last names upon marriage: https://www.miamiherald.com/living/liv-columns-blogs/ana-veciana-suarez/article154558944.html 

And the older you are, and the more educational degrees you have, the more likely you are to retain your birthname when you marry.

 

Huh, this has gone up since the last time I checked. Quick question: what do you mean by older? Do you mean older when they first get married? 

My info before might have been wrong, since this article seems to suggest that more women change their names than 20 years ago. Also, yikes, in 2006 half of all Americans said there should be a law forcing women to take their husbands name. That's insane. 

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I will change my last name to my finace's when we get married in August. I am toying with the idea of making my current last name a middle name.

I always planned that I'd take my husband's last name, as I'd like to have a nuclear family with all the same names.

Plus, all of my married aunts kept their "identity" with their maiden names and our big family gatherings all reinforce it. So for example, Aunt Minnie Jackson is still called a "Mouse" and has all the "Mouse characteristics" and you can tell her kids are "Mouses" even though the family's last name is Jackson. When the "Mouse" women are mentioned she and her daughters are all included. I assume it will be the same with me. 

Plus, my fiancé has a very unique Nigerian name, and me a very Polish one, both 3 syllables, so hyphenating would be disastrous lol 

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