Seewalds 33: Schroedinger’s Uterus

[mollysmom]

I wasn't implying that at all. I understand that every situation is unique and it is up to each woman to make her own decision. I was using rape as an example.

[BernRul]

20 hours ago, Fjrocks said:

    I was reading an article recently that the abortion rates here are at historic record lows, less then fraction of one percent and continue to trend down,  basically due to easier access to birth control and education. 

   They reported the vast majority of those few that do happen, happen in the very first few weeks, or involve health risks or assault where even stanch pro-lifers extend compassion.  So basically adding more legal hoops wouldn't change a damn thing.

    Basically the article was telling our very conservative state...it's really just not a fight that needs fighting at this point.... except to know everyone really does win with access to birth control. 

Which should be the goal for both pro life and pro choice. No one really wants to have an abortion. If both sides could come together to support sex education, easier access to birth control (personally I think that it should be over the counter), universal healthcare, and certain safety nets for poor or single mothers, then we could seriously cut down abortion rates. 

My younger sister had an unplanned pregnancy a year and a half ago. Just seeing everything she physically had to deal with during the pregnancy and labor reinforced the idea that no one should be forced to go through that against their will. A lot of pro life people act like pregnancy is no big deal when that's the furtherest thing from the truth. I'm someone who is looking forward to become pregnant/a mother in the near future (hopefully) and even I know that it's going to suck. I couldn't imagine someone else forcing you to go through that. 

[Nargus]

It took my husband and I a little over a year to get pregnant. I’ve had an experience that I’ve frequently described as being a unicorn pregnancy, because it’s been so easy, uncomplicated and crappy-symptom-free.

And if there’s one thing that pregnancy has reinforced for me it’s that I am 110% pro-choice. I would never in a million years want to put someone through even the easy experience I’ve had if they aren’t choosing it for themselves. I strongly dislike being pregnant, but I deliberately did this (well hubby helped). Pregnancy was my choice. Choosing not to be pregnant is just as valid a choice  

I think that better sex education and easier access to reliable birth control will do far more for lowering abortion rates than waving posters with aborted fetuses on them in people’s faces. 

[Mama Mia]

On 5/26/2018 at 10:15 PM, Rachel333 said:

They would have to be really liberal to support abortion. That's a particularly difficult issue for a lot of people and there are a lot of people who are liberal on everything but abortion. Even if they are getting more liberal I would expect abortion to be one of the last issues they change their views on.

Interestingly, in my little anecdotal world - abortion is one of a couple of issues where you can’t really pin peoples views on abortion to the rest of their general political  ideology. Basically everyone I know is fine with abortion for life /extreme health risk to the mother, or very serious fetal abnormality - but beyond that - their views tend to be all over the place. Most would lalso MAYBE be fine with very, very  early elective abortion, and all use some form of birth control.Many of the more conservative are more pro-choice, while the more liberal are more anti-abortion. Age doesn’t seem to have much bearing on belief either. 

[PainfullyAware]

I was curious to look this up for Canada, where I live. Apparently 80% of Canadian women use birth control compared to 64% of American women. There are approximately 330 000 live births and a 100 000 abortions each year. The rate of abortions is going down by about 1% per year. That's about 15 of abortions for every 1,000 women, compared to 12 in the US and 17 in the UK. I was surprised it was so many abortions, to be honest. I'm a firm believer in women having the choice. I would be more sympathetic to pro-life activists if they focus their attention on quality of life for mothers and children rather than on legislation. Affordable child care and equal pay for women strike me as the two fastest ways to lower abortion rates. I'm sure there are a significant proportion of women who terminate because of financial obstacles but who would keep the pregnancy if those hurdles could be overcome. I would be glad if the rate of abortion goes down. The misconception that pro-choice means pro-abortion bugs me.

[Melissa1977]

12 hours ago, BernRul said:

 

My younger sister had an unplanned pregnancy a year and a half ago. Just seeing everything she physically had to deal with during the pregnancy and labor reinforced the idea that no one should be forced to go through that against their will. A lot of pro life people act like pregnancy is no big deal when that's the furtherest thing from the truth. I'm someone who is looking forward to become pregnant/a mother in the near future (hopefully) and even I know that it's going to suck. I couldn't imagine someone else forcing you to go through that. 

In fact, pregnancy can not only be easy, but also rewarding and a pleasure. Of course, the opposite situation is also possible, as unfortunately happened to your sister. There is a wide range of possibilities, from paradise to hell. Many pregnancies are just a smooth period, seasoned with some bad days and stresful moments, but enjoyable on the whole. I wish you a nice pregnancy and a healthy baby!

[VelociRapture]

22 hours ago, mollysmom said:

I wasn't implying that at all. I understand that every situation is unique and it is up to each woman to make her own decision. I was using rape as an example.

Sorry. The final sentence of your other post made it sound like you couldn’t understand why any rape victim might choose to keep the child or place the child for adoption rather than abort. I agree with you that every situation is unique and each woman deserves to be able to make that choice for herself. 

[Kittikatz]

9 hours ago, PainfullyAware said:

I was curious to look this up for Canada, where I live. Apparently 80% of Canadian women use birth control compared to 64% of American women. There are approximately 330 000 live births and a 100 000 abortions each year. The rate of abortions is going down by about 1% per year. That's about 15 of abortions for every 1,000 women, compared to 12 in the US and 17 in the UK. I was surprised it was so many abortions, to be honest. I'm a firm believer in women having the choice. I would be more sympathetic to pro-life activists if they focus their attention on quality of life for mothers and children rather than on legislation. Affordable child care and equal pay for women strike me as the two fastest ways to lower abortion rates. I'm sure there are a significant proportion of women who terminate because of financial obstacles but who would keep the pregnancy if those hurdles could be overcome. I would be glad if the rate of abortion goes down. The misconception that pro-choice means pro-abortion bugs me.

To the bolded part - agreed x1000. This is why I have close to zero regard for the pro-birth groups - so many don't seem to get that abortion is part of a broader social context, and that without significantly more support from society many women - especially those who run the numbers - will see abortion as their most logical/best option in the face of an unplanned pregnancy.

My only pregnancy ended in a miscarriage, but given my financial situation at the time, having a baby alone would have equaled a lifetime of poverty for both of us. Since I grew up poor and suffered food insecurity a lot as a child, I probably would have had to choose abortion - I just could not put a child through what I went through. Even though the miscarriage was very sad, having to abort for financial reasons would have been more heartbreaking. I have a 'good job' in the civil service, but even now, I could not afford a child. Day care alone in my city runs on average $1000/month for infants. Throw in the lost wages and the costs for sports/arts/day camps as the child ages, and the money just isn't there. Thankfully the government is now talking about significant subsidies for daycare, but many of these are for very low income people (which is great - they would certainly need it more than anyone else), but won't be of much help for the so called middle class. I always laugh when people wonder why Canada's birth rate is so low... I'm sure a lot of it is because of a relatively well educated/informed populace who are very aware that given our cost of living, they can't afford many (or any) children. 

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

On 5/26/2018 at 9:12 PM, BernRul said:

Ben and the other Duggars should be happy about this by their own logic. Those fetuses would have grown up to be either Catholic or secular. According to their logic, that means they would go straight to hell. But if they died as innocent unborn babies, before they could be baptised pagan Catholics or raised in pagan Ireland, than they would go straight to heaven. So this means more babies going to heaven! 

But seriously, now evangelicals are going to pretend that they give a shit about the Irish?

Nah... Fundies want these Catholic Pagan babies to be born because they create jobs for people like OfJill. If too many non fundie people get abortions, then who will the next generation of holy grifters harass on their missioncations?

[mollysmom]

6 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Sorry. The final sentence of your other post made it sound like you couldn’t understand why any rape victim might choose to keep the child or place the child for adoption rather than abort. I agree with you that every situation is unique and each woman deserves to be able to make that choice for herself. 

Ohhh! Gotcha!! After reading this and rereading what I wrote I can see where you would think that but no, I didn't at all mean that!! Not once bit! Bad choice of words on my part! 

[BernRul]

14 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I wish you a nice pregnancy and a healthy baby!

Thank you! 

[Carm_88]

I hate generalizations, I really do. What's good for one woman, will suck ass for another. I can have a cold and it may be hell for me, a friend of mine in the same age group will be fine. Women are a very distinct group of human beings, none of us are the same, and men like Ben can't make decisions for us. Frankly, I feel like making judgments on abortion is quite like making judgments on people's sex lives. Whatever happens, is none of my damned business and I should keep my newsbag nose out of it!  

[bethover89]

On 5/26/2018 at 12:37 PM, Seculardaisy said:

Jessa’s friend Kristen, whom has been featured on the show many times, is confusingly using her newborn to hawk Juice Plus. Is the baby a juice plus baby? Is she insinuating the vbac is because of her Juice Plus use? What does any of this mean?

I’ve been following her with a sort of  anthropological Interest and the juice plus stuff is out of hand. I hate mlms anyway, but she sells it as a cure all, boasts about how it cured family members chronic illnesses, etc.  It all feels irresponsible. And did you know , because it’s plants you can’t overdose! Just triple up on them! It’s just veggie powder! And I’m like okay, but at a certain point even too many carrots is the probably dangerous. 

[Meggo]

8 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I hate generalizations, I really do. What's good for one woman, will suck ass for another. I can have a cold and it may be hell for me, a friend of mine in the same age group will be fine. Women are a very distinct group of human beings, none of us are the same, and men like Ben can't make decisions for us. Frankly, I feel like making judgments on abortion is quite like making judgments on people's sex lives. Whatever happens, is none of my damned business and I should keep my newsbag nose out of it!  

This. 100%.
I was anti-abortion in high school (not rabidly). And then through talking to friends - I realized that MY value on that - doesn't equal YOUR value on that - and that's quite okay. I don't get to decide what happens when it's NOT.MY.BODY. I don't think I'd have an abortion (but after a million years of infertility - I'm not likely to ever get to make that decision at all - and I'm coming at it from a different angle) but I whole HEARTEDLY support every woman's right to choose.

I would like to make sure you (the collective you - not the specific you) are safe, you are well informed, have proper counseling and medical care. And then I am going to assume you're someone who can make that decision all on your own. With your doc or your person or your best friend or whatever. None of my beeswax.
 

[Chewing Gum]

4 hours ago, Meggo said:

This. 100%.
I was anti-abortion in high school (not rabidly). And then through talking to friends - I realized that MY value on that - doesn't equal YOUR value on that - and that's quite okay. I don't get to decide what happens when it's NOT.MY.BODY. I don't think I'd have an abortion (but after a million years of infertility - I'm not likely to ever get to make that decision at all - and I'm coming at it from a different angle) but I whole HEARTEDLY support every woman's right to choose.

I would like to make sure you (the collective you - not the specific you) are safe, you are well informed, have proper counseling and medical care. And then I am going to assume you're someone who can make that decision all on your own. With your doc or your person or your best friend or whatever. None of my beeswax.
 

Yes, this is still me. Personally I’m anti-abortion or pro-life or however you want to name it. That is because I immediately bond with the fetus myself and feel a different energy in my body from 4 days after conception. So life starts early for me. I also find it difficult to abort anything that will be a thinking, feeling human being if you just leave it the hell alone. HOWEVER, and I cannot stress this HOWEVER enough, for everyone else in the world I’m pro-choice. It’s not my body and it doesn’t matter how I feel about it. I can weep in the corner and leave people alone. As long as someone has all the info they need to make a decision for themselves, services should always be available for them. 

[VelociRapture]

3 hours ago, Chewing Gum said:

Yes, this is still me. Personally I’m anti-abortion or pro-life or however you want to name it. That is because I immediately bond with the fetus myself and feel a different energy in my body from 4 days after conception. So life starts early for me. I also find it difficult to abort anything that will be a thinking, feeling human being if you just leave it the hell alone. HOWEVER, and I cannot stress this HOWEVER enough, for everyone else in the world I’m pro-choice. It’s not my body and it doesn’t matter how I feel about it. I can weep in the corner and leave people alone. As long as someone has all the info they need to make a decision for themselves, services should always be available for them. 

This is how attached I felt to my daughter from the moment I got that first positive test, but I don’t feel the same as you do about equating that with life. The way I personally view it is there is the potential for life at that stage, but not an actual life. For me, “life” really starts around the 23 week mark when the fetus can survive outside the womb. I completely agree on the rest of your post though. Every person who could theoretically become pregnant and is capable of making fully informed decisions themself deserves the right to make the best choice for themself and their unique situation. 

(Not looking to start a debate or anything. I just always find it interesting how differently people can view things.  )

[AprilQuilt]

29 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

This is how attached I felt to my daughter from the moment I got that first positive test, but I don’t feel the same as you do about equating that with life. The way I personally view it is there is the potential for life at that stage, but not an actual life.

Aye. like @Chewing Gum, when I've been pregnant I've known within a few days. And I have felt very attached to that little life almost immediately - kind of admiring of it, I can't quite articulate it. I lost both my pregnancies, which was horrible, but neither occurred at a good stage in my life, and I am really grateful that I never had to make the choice about abortion.

Perhaps I am very selfish, but even though I felt very bonded with the pregnancy, and in awe of its resilience, I absolutely felt that ending it was an option I had. I wouldn't have wanted to bring a child into the situations I was in, and to be honest I valued my own, extant, life more than I did the non-viable one I was carrying. Those foetuses were a pretty awe-inspiring biological phenomenon, but then so are chicks gestating in eggs, and the way that seedlings germinate and grow. It's all magical stuff. I just don't believe the life I made was any more sacred than any other life on this earth, which deserves respect but not necessarily to be conserved at all costs. I root up weeds and surplus seedlings all the time - I don't mean that in any fatuous way, I just think *a human being* and *the cells that have the potential to become one* are really different things.

Hopefully in the near future I'll conceive again and manage to carry a child to term; if I do I will just love the heck out of it. And I don't think this makes me a hypocrite. I guess all I really want to say is that it is possible to feel attached to a pregnancy  - awed by it, even; aware of its amazingness - but still choose to end it, for a million very good reasons. I know this isn't an opinion that everybody will find palatable though.

[Snowless]

On 5/27/2018 at 11:36 PM, Rachel333 said:

(As an aside, I've always thought the phrase "rape or incest" in abortion discussions was kind of weird. Isn't the kind of incest they're talking about also rape? Why specify the exact circumstances of the rape? If they were talking about consensual incest--which is very rare--and the concerns were genetic, then why would you allow abortion just because of a chance of abnormalities but not with known, non-incest-related abnormalities?).

I am absolutely in agreement with you on this: incest is rape.  The only difference between rape and incest is that incest is committed by a close family member, whereas in general terms a rapist does not have to have a familial relation to the victim.

A child born of incest does stand a higher risk of developing genetic abnormalities, which is why it’s so taboo.  One does not need to look any further than the Spanish branch of the Habsburg dynasty.  The Habsburgs were famous for their intermarriages and interbreeding to preserve their royal bloodline, which led to a prevalence of a protrusion of the lower jaw in that family that was nicknamed the “Habsburg Jaw”.  It affected the final Spanish ruler of the Habsburg line, Charles II of Spain, to the point that chewing and speaking were difficult.  (His parents were uncle and niece to each other.)  Charles II had numerous physical and mental disabilities as a result, in addition to being infertile.  He died at the age of 38 with no children, and Spain ended up in a war over who would assume the Spanish throne that lasted 13 years and resulted in a King of France being named the King of Spain (but he had to renounce his crown as King of France) and a whole bunch of land changing hands.

[closetcagebaby]

On 5/29/2018 at 2:31 AM, PainfullyAware said:

I was curious to look this up for Canada, where I live. Apparently 80% of Canadian women use birth control compared to 64% of American women. There are approximately 330 000 live births and a 100 000 abortions each year. The rate of abortions is going down by about 1% per year. That's about 15 of abortions for every 1,000 women, compared to 12 in the US and 17 in the UK. I was surprised it was so many abortions, to be honest. I'm a firm believer in women having the choice. I would be more sympathetic to pro-life activists if they focus their attention on quality of life for mothers and children rather than on legislation. Affordable child care and equal pay for women strike me as the two fastest ways to lower abortion rates. I'm sure there are a significant proportion of women who terminate because of financial obstacles but who would keep the pregnancy if those hurdles could be overcome. I would be glad if the rate of abortion goes down. The misconception that pro-choice means pro-abortion bugs me.

I’m not surprised at how many women have had them - I think many women have and don’t feel comfortable talking about it. I know that my abortion was the right decision for me, but it wasn’t easy and I’ve experienced a ton of judgment from people about it. I don’t blame anyone for keeping theirs a secret. But in my anecdotal evidence, most women I know have had one in their lifetime. 

 

[SapphireSlytherin]

Off the top of my head, I know -- for sure -- seven women who've had abortions. I do suspect many others may have, who don't feel comfortable sharing this information. 

[NotQuiteMotY]

I only know one woman for sure who had an abortion. Maybe it's just my circle? 

I was so glad to see that the amendment was repealed. Funnily enough, so was my very Catholic mother-in-law! We both agreed that while abortion is not a desirable outcome, a law that kills women is worse. We have a few differences of opinion on the topic otherwise...

I've never had an abortion, but that's largely because I've never had to make the decision. If I had to, I'm not sure what I'd do, especially now that I've gone through a relatively uncomplicated (wanted) pregnancy and delivery once. Even relatively uncomplicated pregnancy is not necessarily fun.

The way I look at it, I'd rather no one had to make the decision to abort a pregnancy. Until we have perfect birth control, no cases of rape, incest, or partner abuse, a much better social net so no woman has to worry about feeding a new baby at the expense of her existing children, and all the other reasons a woman chooses to abort, though? I want that choice available to anyone pregnant, no matter what their final decision is.

[SorenaJ]

I don't know any person who have had an abortion. This is gonna sound extremely judgmental, so apologies in advance, but how does one accidentally get pregnant and need an abortion? Okay, yeah, birth control might only be 99 % efficient, so there is that one percent, but how do you account for the rest?

[Rachel333]

A lot of people just aren't using birth control perfectly. Mistakes happen.

[Chewing Gum]

52 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

I don't know any person who have had an abortion. This is gonna sound extremely judgmental, so apologies in advance, but how does one accidentally get pregnant and need an abortion? Okay, yeah, birth control might only be 99 % efficient, so there is that one percent, but how do you account for the rest?

Short anwer: lust, unaccessability (hope I wrote that correctly) to BC, antibiotics, bodies not responding correctly to BC, not taking them correctly.  

Long answer: I got unexpectedly pregant three times. Miscarried all three btw. I can’t use the pill as it screws up my emotions too much and since I work with kids, that’s a bad combo. I got unexpectedly pregnant the first time that way, because the first month off the pill (had to quit) wasn’t like a normal month, and I was on AB. Should’ve known that. Can’t use mirena’s or iud’s because my uterus refuses them. I keep on cramping until it’s out. So we can only do condoms and if I’m honest, I hate them with a passion. The whole myth “you feel less with a condom” is actually true for me, not so much him. So while we did use them during the daytime sex, we’d forget them at night as we’re too sleepy. We used nfp as much as we could, which worked perfectly between kid #1 and #2. MrChewing got a vasectomy after the third loss. We have had two planned pregnancies which resulted in two daughters. 

 

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

@SorenaJ Also lack of education about sex and birth control, and teenagers especially have been known to think they’re invincible— they think it won’t happen to them, or that you can’t get pregnant the first time. 

After planning and ‘trying’ for baby #1, I too was of the mindset that it must be tough to have an accidental pregnancy, but now I’m pregnant with a second baby I wasn’t quite ready for. I’m luckily in a situation where, after some emotional rearranging, everything is going to be just fine for us.