Seewalds 33: Schroedinger’s Uterus

[pandora]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

As usual, I don't mind having an unpopular opinion, I stand by it. I don't think you really understood my point though. I just thought that requiring me to sign a long-ass permission form for my teenage daughter to be given aspirin in school, when she could have got a secret abortion was hypocritical. Eliminate aspirin forms and the like and just let teens make all of their own health decisions. I don't really care about the aspirin, but the school was concerned about liability. Yet, there is no concern about liability for abortion on a person who cannot legally consent? Maybe I'm too damn logical.

AT NO TIME DID I SAY MAKE IT SO THAT MINORS IN SHITTY HOMES WOULD POSSIBLY BE AT RISK OF HARM FOR GETTING PREGNANT OR HAVING AN ABORTION. ABSOLUTELY NOT! I AM FOR UNFETTERED ACCESS TO ABORTION. However, I decided a lot of things regarding my minor child's body. Hell, in many states tattoos are probibited before 18, or some other arbitrary age.

It is too bad that the USA has such fucked up attitudes about sex and femle bodies. 

So, one thing I like about being here on FJ is that the span of people I get to interact with is much broader than my friend group, who are all within a few years of my age. I'm speaking as someone who was semi recently a teen (I'm 22), and that's the lens I bring to this, rather than that of a parent. So first of all, I'd like to address the two comparison decisions you bring up, you have to give permission for your kid to get a tattoo or take an aspirin at school but they could have an abortion and you'd be none the wiser. I get why that seems silly to you ( it certainly seems like overkill to me on the aspirin) but that's kind of the point. There's no decision a parent can make when their kid wants an aspirin or even a tattoo that has the potential to alter their life intensely for the next 18 years and beyond. That's why it matters more that a teen is in charge of making that decision rather than the aspirin one, so your state steps in and creates that policy. They're funny to compare because they aren't comparable. Your state's regulation about abortion was made to protect your kid, while a high school's policy about not giving your kid aspirin without your ok isn't cause they're worried about protecting your kid, they're worried about you suing them. 

On 6/2/2018 at 12:22 PM, SilverBeach said:

But should a blanket law be adopted that deprives all parents of the right to know what is going on with the health of their minor daughter? I don't think so. Like I have repeatedly said, it is a complex matter that I don't think is being addressed correctly. I really hope that the majority of minor pregnancies do not happen to children of abhorrent parents. There should be protections in place for these minors that do not disregard my parental status as a non-abhorrent parent. That's all i'm saying. This is all so moot for me, DD is 33! No babies, pregnancies, or known abortions yet.

So you say in ALL CAPS that you are for unfettered access to abortion, but that just does not jive with this statement here. What I'm hearing is that you have a close relationship with your daughter and care deeply for her, and if theoretically as a teen she'd needed an abortion, you wish you could know, so you could help her through a potentially difficult time. And I can understand that desire to know and help your child. I think a lot of parents feel that way, which is great. But there is no way for you to say you both support unfettered access to abortion AND that you think there should be a system in place to inform parents of their children's abortions. As multiple posters said, for some people the threat of even loving parents knowing they'd had an abortion could be a dangerous deterrent. That's gonna fetter access to abortion real quick. I'd be sincerely curious to know what regulations you'd propose that don't restrict abortion access but also make "non-abhorrent" parents legally aware of their kid's abortion. Unless you're just spinning your wheels here? Some states have tried something similar, which is that teens require parental consent for abortions but can go to a judge if they  need to bypass a parent, and that's gone really horribly. How do we know someone is non-abhorrent, or that letting a "nice" set of parents know won't serve to restrict access to abortion? I'm really thinking this through, and the closest thing I can think of to what you want is if a teen going to have an abortion gets asked "are you wanting to tell your parents about this? If so, and you'd like another adult in the room to help mediate what can be a charged discussion, I can be there".

On 6/2/2018 at 12:34 PM, SilverBeach said:

Maybe. Even a minor in a loving home can feel fear or shame, or exercise poor judgement when faced with a pregnancy and possib le abortion decision. Teens are not always known for their good judgement.

So this is where I have a feeling you and I won't be able to agree. If someone exercises what you or I would call poor judgement regarding an abortion, it's still their call. What we know though, is that that's rarely the case. What is the case pretty often though is that legislatures worry that even adult women will exercise poor judgement and need help deciding, and this leads to a lot of restrictions on abortion in general, like trap laws. We as a culture know there's nothing about your 18th birthday that grants any special maturity you didn't have one day earlier, it's just an arbitrary line for adulthood we've drawn because it makes sense to have one somewhere. We understand teens are taking on new responsibilities. At 16 your minor child can drive without your supervision or permission, and even before that they can hold a job, and often be tried as an adult for any serious crimes they commit. So far as teens being known for their bad judgement... yes, it's true that the developmental phase they are results in errors in judgement due to things like not having a real sense of consequences, and impulse control issues. But we recognize at the same time that most teens can and do think through significant situations and make big decisions for themselves with pretty good judgement. Compared to many situations teens can find themselves in, deciding to have an abortion seems to me to be less prone to bad judgement due to adolescent wiring than a lot of other situations. There's just about zero places in the US where you could impulsively walk in somewhere and get an abortion- you'd probably need to research where to go as there's few abortion providers in many states, you'd need to make an appointment ahead of time, and you'd have to hear a lot of scary warnings (see trap laws, above) about what an abortion could do to you, hell, maybe you'd get especially lucky and be verbally abused by protesters calling you a murderer as you walked into the clinic. Not something that's happening on a whim. Similarly if we're worried that teens won't be able to understand the consequences of their actions, the massive amounts of pro-life rhetoric have put out the idea that having an abortion is a decision you will regret FOREVER, and the sad calculus that a lot of your girls make is that they will take that regret over having to bring a life into the world. Bottom-line, I will defend any person's right to decide if they want to bear a child, regardless of their developmental age, without outside input. 

[Kittikatz]

I agree so much with the poster who said young people have a right to a life that is private from their parents. Individuation is an important part of the process of becomming an adult, and it seems to be one that a lot of families I know are struggling with - not out of spite, but rather out of love. Many of these issues are caused parents wanting to protect their children from everyone and everything - including the consequences of their own bad decisions. 

I also think that it's important to acknowledge that one person's perception of the closeness of their relationship with another person is not necessarily going to be exactly in alignment. My mother always bragged to people that I could "talk to her about anything" and that she and I "told eachother everything". In her mind this was true. In mine, nothing could be further from the truth - my life is almost entirely unspoken and there are some very big secrets that I would literally take a bullet to keep her from finding out about.  She doesn't know me and knows very little about what's going on in my life or mind. I don't think we are close but in Mom's world, she and I are BFFs. 

I used to think that keeping secrets like this was weird, but now I think it's more a case of most people having some part of themselves they hold back from some of the people they love. One of my closest friends has a daughter who is 18 and a son around 23. My friend and her family is quite politically liberal and not religious at all. Her family truly seems happy, and I adore spending time with them because I can just see the love flowing between them all. Her kids "should" be able to tell her anything and everything, but they don't - in fact there are some big secrets in play. Her son was diagnosed with bipolar and is seeing a psychiatrist very regularly. He's also on heavy meds (that are paid for by her benefits). Meanwhile, her daughter is gay and has been dating the same girl all through high school. My friend has no idea of either of these things, and until her kids slip up or choose to tell her what's going on, she never will. 

[CarrotCake]

Wow, insane to read that it is so difficult to get a morning-after-pill in some parts of the world. Is it really $50? And it has to be prescribed by a doctor?

Here I can just get it at every drugstore (open 7 days a week) without speaking to the person on the other side of the counter. However, the one time I needed it was about 10 years ago and then I still had to go to the Pharmacy and only one was open on Sunday so I had to cross the city but that's it. Price was around 10 euro's if I remember correctly.

 

[Nargus]

Only time I ever needed the morning after pill was literally the first time I had sex. I was incredibly drunk (as was he) and in the morning I realized that we didn’t use a condom. So I went to the nearest and pharmacy and asked the pharmacist for it. I think it was $40 or $50? I felt like crap that day, whooooo boy. I read later it’s the hormonal equivalent of taking an entire pack of birth control pills at once. 

 

[CarrotCake]

Yes, I also remember being very sick. Only that makes me believe that no person would choose it as birth control.

[Carm_88]

On 6/3/2018 at 10:26 AM, sansan said:

Thank ya Mamas for not thinking like you.

Actually, I was an unplanned pregnancy that happened while my mother was on the pill. Let me tell you, I knew that I was. There was a big difference to how my mother treated me and how she treated my very planned little brother. She didn't have easy access to abortion services and my Catholic grandparents would never have helped. That being said, I don't think it ever crossed her mind because she was told that if you got pregnant, it's your fault, and you have to deal with the consequences. Guess what? I dealt with the consequences. I was the one who got in trouble for being less than perfect, I was the one who was never good enough. She regularly makes comments stating that they should be married so many years but they couldn't have a nice wedding because of me. Because I dared to be born. 

If I were aborted, I would never have known. Now I live with the fact that she would have aborted me if she could have. That I was nothing more than a mistake who fucked up her life. So yeah, there's being a bundle of cells that never has a thought or being an adult who has to sort out that type of family history.*

*I am here, I don't regret being here. I just wish that there wasn't so much judgment. 

[lumpentheologie]

On 6/3/2018 at 8:56 AM, sansan said:

Thank ya Mamas for not thinking like you.

My mother is one of the several women I know who has had an abortion. She had one before I was born, before she was married to my father, and her boyfriend at the time had no interest in a child and she couldn't support one herself. I'm very grateful she had that choice.  On the one hand, I probably wouldn't have been born if she had continued that pregnancy. But more importantly, when abortion is an available and acceptable option, every child knows they're wanted and chosen, even if they aren't planned. 

[singsingsing]

I can't imagine the weirdness of thanking my mother for not aborting me. That's like saying, "Thank your parents for having unprotected sex at the exact time they did to conceive you, because otherwise you wouldn't be here!" Well no shit. Should I also be thankful that some of my ancestors were the result of rape, because otherwise I wouldn't be here? Seriously, think about the logical implications of an argument like that.

[KelseyAnn]

You have no idea how badly I want to punch your mom in the face. 

[Rachel333]

I've actually never really thought about it before, but I wonder if I would have been aborted had my parents not been so anti-abortion. I know I was a surprise and I've gathered from a few comments my parents have made that it took a little while for them to get excited about being parents, as before she got pregnant my mom didn't want kids at all.

That said, my parents have always said how grateful they are to have me, and that the experience of having me made them want a bunch more kids, so I don't think it has negatively affected me. I didn't even know I was unplanned until I was a teenager.

I also agree that it's weird to think of thanking your mother for not aborting you. If I had been aborted then it's not like I'd be suffering, I just wouldn't exist.

[justoneoftwo]

Some people have a really hard time with the idea of not existing.  Personally I've never really thought life was inherently better than not life, but I'm weird perhaps.  

I wouldn't thank my parents for having me, only for doing a good job once they did.  

[justmy2cents]

@Carm_88 I can relate. I was also unplanned. Mom got pregnant when my sister was 9 months old but didn't realize it til I kicked. I grew up knowing that she wanted to abort me but the Dr. told her no way. She did treat my sister better. I was always quiet and had low self esteem. Who knows how much of that is due to knowing the negative reaction it seems the whole family had to her pregnancy with me. I was daddy's girl as a result. Funny enough she relates better to me now than to my sister. I know she loves me but knowing she wanted to abort me did affect the way I viewed myself.

[Glasgowghirl]

11 minutes ago, justmy2cents said:

@Carm_88 I can relate. I was also unplanned. Mom got pregnant when my sister was 9 months old but didn't realize it til I kicked. I grew up knowing that she wanted to abort me but the Dr. told her no way. She did treat my sister better. I was always quiet and had low self esteem. Who knows how much of that is due to knowing the negative reaction it seems the whole family had to her pregnancy with me. I was daddy's girl as a result. Funny enough she relates better to me now than to my sister. I know she loves me but knowing she wanted to abort me did affect the way I viewed myself.

When I was 7 and we were camping in France. I overheard my mum telling a family friend, who travelled with us, that I was unplanned, she said that she already had a boy and girl and thought she was done, medication cancelled out her pill. She didn't say anything mean and she thought I was sleeping in the room but it still was strange to hear. We haven't always had the best relationship but I don't think it's down to that. Mum didn't consider abortion but I could have understood if she did, her and dad already had a toddler and 5 year old and in the 80s unemployment was high where I live. Having another mouth to feed and clothe wouldn't have been easy. 

[Carm_88]

30 minutes ago, justmy2cents said:

@Carm_88 I can relate. I was also unplanned. Mom got pregnant when my sister was 9 months old but didn't realize it til I kicked. I grew up knowing that she wanted to abort me but the Dr. told her no way. She did treat my sister better. I was always quiet and had low self esteem. Who knows how much of that is due to knowing the negative reaction it seems the whole family had to her pregnancy with me. I was daddy's girl as a result. Funny enough she relates better to me now than to my sister. I know she loves me but knowing she wanted to abort me did affect the way I viewed myself.

I am a Daddy's girl too. My Mom tries to relate to me more now, I respect her but we will never be friends. There was too much damage done there. 

[Gillyweed]

According to my mom, I was not unplanned but I was a "surprise."  They weren't sure if they wanted a third child yet. At the time, they still attended church regularly, so I don't think they ever thought of aborting me.

A few years ago my two best friends and I bonded over being unplanned pregnancies. One of them was an irish twin (exactly 10 months after her brother), and the other's mother became pregnant soon after she moved to America. I can't imagine how difficult that would have been, since she was all alone in a new country where she had difficulty with the language. I'm really glad neither of them were aborted. 

[nst]

a girl can only watch that much of the xfiles - i re watched the episode duggar derby or whatever it's called and i can't believe how boring they were

i promptly deleted the episode - who is proud of me? 

 

[neurogirl]

My fiance is the youngest of 4 and it is a well-known family fact that he was a "happy accident." His parents had two boys and then a girl in 6 years. My future MIL had difficult deliveries and had had 3 c-sections. Her OB told her (lightheartedly as the story goes) not to call her if she got pregnant again, and fMIL gave away all the baby clothes. Then another 2 years later, surprise! Another baby, another C-section, and a maybe less-than-pleased OB. I'm obviously very glad he's here, and the fact he was an accident doesn't seem to cause hurt feelings in their particular family/situation. Maybe because the option to terminate the pregnancy was never mentioned? I'm very sorry to everyone who's parents or other adults said things they couldn't take back. Some things you just have to shut up about if you love your kids. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

7 hours ago, neurogirl said:

My fiance is the youngest of 4 and it is a well-known family fact that he was a "happy accident." His parents had two boys and then a girl in 6 years. My future MIL had difficult deliveries and had had 3 c-sections. Her OB told her (lightheartedly as the story goes) not to call her if she got pregnant again, and fMIL gave away all the baby clothes. Then another 2 years later, surprise! Another baby, another C-section, and a maybe less-than-pleased OB. I'm obviously very glad he's here, and the fact he was an accident doesn't seem to cause hurt feelings in their particular family/situation. Maybe because the option to terminate the pregnancy was never mentioned? I'm very sorry to everyone who's parents or other adults said things they couldn't take back. Some things you just have to shut up about if you love your kids. 

Something similar happened to a friend of mine, They had 3 boys & were done, they decided when the youngest boy was about 2.5 they weren't going to have anymore, so husband went to have a vasectomy she had a garage sale to get rid of all the baby stuff and did what she didn't sell she gave to our church and the rest Goodwill. The weekend after they got the house in order from the sale she found out she was pregnant again. They hadn't waited long enough after the vasectomy, So they now have 4 boys #3 just graduated HS last weekend and #4 will be a sophomore in the fall. We got to have a baby shower for her since she literally had to start over again.  She said she recently that she was so glad they had the accident, as life with 4 boys seemed perfect to her.  

I often feel bad that my kids don't have a same sex sibling, I wonder what it would be like to have 2 boys or 2 girls or any mix like that.  My kids got along pretty well until their teen years they still butt heads a lot but I think they will be fine with each other once they aren't living in the same space.  They are two VERY different people. 

[RainbowSky]

On 6/4/2018 at 8:38 AM, CarrotCake said:

Wow, insane to read that it is so difficult to get a morning-after-pill in some parts of the world. Is it really $50? And it has to be prescribed by a doctor?

Here I can just get it at every drugstore (open 7 days a week) without speaking to the person on the other side of the counter. However, the one time I needed it was about 10 years ago and then I still had to go to the Pharmacy and only one was open on Sunday so I had to cross the city but that's it. Price was around 10 euro's if I remember correctly.

 

Here they're out by the condoms but in a protective thing so not as easily stolen and 75 bucks

 

Well 75 like 2 years ago when I looked out of curiosity since i noticed they were in the antitheft cases before I was pregnant with my baby.  I haven't used one.

@pandora Where can a 16 yo drive without permission? That's a new one.

[nastyhobbitses]

On 6/3/2018 at 1:56 PM, sansan said:

Thank ya Mamas for not thinking like you.

You do realize that in fact, a large percentage of women who have abortions already have kids? Are they not "mamas" because, for whatever reason, they had to terminate a pregnancy? How far are we taking this? Is my mom not a "mama" because she had three miscarriages between me and my sister? Can I not be a "mama" even if I decide to have kids down the line because I took Plan B once when a condom broke and I was between birth control prescriptions? 

Also, BEC but I fucking hate when people reduce women's identities to their ability to reproduce. 

[Joyfully_Unavailable]

1 hour ago, nastyhobbitses said:

Also, BEC but I fucking hate when people reduce women's identities to their ability to reproduce. 

*standing ovation* 

I don’t even think this is a BEC statement, women are more than just reproductive incubators. 

[JordynDarby5]

One of my friends was the after oops. Her parents decided to stop after five kids. seven years later there was a surprise pregnancy. Because the rest of their kids were so much older then him they decided to have one more so he'd have a sibling to grow up with. My friend was born two years later.

[BrandoBarks]

Both my husband and I were unplanned.

My Italian mother in law got married at 18 but wanted to enjoy life with her new husband alone. Doctors discovered her pregnancy by chance while they were performing an operation in her abdomen. They did not give her much hope that the baby would survive but luckily he did :-) 

My mom on the other hand grew up in a very strict, repressing household so the minute she was 18 and on her first vacation alone she „went wild“ and got pregnant. Her best friend had an abortion while she „had to take the consequences“. My brother 5 years later was born in marriage and to this day she treats us differently.

So I think it was destiny my husband and I met: two unplanned people from two different countries :-)

[RubyRei]

On 6/1/2018 at 2:20 AM, SorenaJ said:

I don't know any person who have had an abortion. This is gonna sound extremely judgmental, so apologies in advance, but how does one accidentally get pregnant and need an abortion? Okay, yeah, birth control might only be 99 % efficient, so there is that one percent, but how do you account for the rest?

@SorenaJ “Apologies in advance for sounding extremely judgemental.” -> Says something unapologetically judgemental. 

Wat?

[Carm_88]

Back to Jessa, she actually did post because I said that she hadn't in a while. 

Spurgeon and Jana in the garden, as well as pictures of Jana's garden. 

Spoiler

 

Henry is busy!