Seewalds 33: Schroedinger’s Uterus

[imokit]

@SorenaJ How do you know that you don't know anyone who's had an abortion?  Most people I know who've had one don't advertise that they've had one.

The people I know who've had them are not people you would guess unless they tell you.

I'm pretty sure that I know other's who've had abortions, but its none of my business to know or judge or ask.

[AprilQuilt]

3 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

I don't know any person who have had an abortion. This is gonna sound extremely judgmental, so apologies in advance, but how does one accidentally get pregnant and need an abortion? Okay, yeah, birth control might only be 99 % efficient, so there is that one percent, but how do you account for the rest?

Well, I can answer that since I've become accidentally pregnant. Once my birth control failed, and once - many years later - I was switching medications and not as up on NFP as I thought I was. Your maths is wonky by the way - birth control might fail 1% of the time, but that doesn't account for 1% of all accidental pregnancies/reasons for abortion. I would think the proportion was far, far higher. People get accidentally pregnant for all sorts of reasons and it doesn't necessarily imply that they are hopeless sloppy individuals. My SIL took 15 months to conceive her first baby - temperature charting, ovulation tests, the whole shebang - and her second was a flukish accident.

I would also say that not all abortions are of accidental/unwanted pregnancies. For example, the foetus might have a condition that is not compatible with life, or it is dying anyway and waiting for spontaneous abortion/miscarriage will put the mother in danger (abortion was illegal in both these scenarios in Ireland). It's not unheard-of that a planned pregnancy might be aborted if a couple separate or have some sort of crisis that makes them judge it's not the right time to have a baby; a woman might also choose to abort if she is leaving an abusive relationship in which her partner used pregnancy to control her.

You might not know anybody who has had an abortion, but then again you might just not know that they have. How would you? They will have literally nothing to distinguish them.

[kiwi]

I will also put my hand up to an accidental pregnancy... took us 2 years and fertility treatment to get pregnant with our first, our second we where told my odds of concieving again using the same fertility treatment was statistically lower second time around so we started again when our eldest was 6mths old, by the time he was 7 months old we were happily pregnant. 

We ended up with a premmie and had a 16mth gap. Life was sweet! I started back working evenings (freedom!) when our second was about a year old. Somehow we still managed to conceive naturally and not realise til I was 14-15 weeks. (PCOS, and I don’t ovulate or have regular cycles - average 4 a year). It took me the full length of the pregnancy to get my brain in gear (I have horrific pregancies, bed rest for four months, dialating contractions with this one from 18 weeks.)

We ended up with three under 3.5yrs old! So accidentally pregancies do happen.

 

I went to an all girls high school of 300 girls (roughly 50-60 per year level). There would have been an average of 5 girls from each year level who dropped out due to being pregnant. In my year level by my last year at high school I knew of at least 4 girls who had had abortions and stayed at school. Where I live its a doctors consult, a two hour drive for another two consults (psych and obgyn), a few days stand down, another consult and the procedure (all happening two hours drive away). There is very little chance of a “secret” abortion from your parents, etc.

[SweetJuly]

11 hours ago, Snowless said:

A child born of incest does stand a higher risk of developing genetic abnormalities, which is why it’s so taboo. 

This is always brought up as a reason for why incest needs to be or remain taboo, but it's not really a valid argument.

After all, nothing and no one (rightly so!) can legally stop you from having a child with genetic abnormalities or hereditary diseases in other instances, be it Trisomy 21, haemophilia, Chorea Huntington, etc.

No matter how mild or severe the effects may be on the child, the choice of whether someone at risk decides to have children at all under the circumstances, what precautions (i.e. PGD) they take, whether they carry the pregnancy to term, etc. is and should be always left up to the parents.

Furthermore, the risk of a child born to cousins or other close relatives on a one-off occasion (not across generations as in the Habsburg's case or in some communities) is actually not as bad as people fear.

 

The only issue with incest is in my opinion that it is often the result of very unhealthy family dynamics. Sexual or emotional abuse may be involved, perhaps one more powerful part (parent or older sibling) may have been grooming a more vulnerable person, etc. This would be a case where incest equals rape. Still, incest as such is not the problem here - the problem would be child abuse, rape, etc.

However, I don't see how legally - and without taking recourse to invalid biologistic arguments - a convincing case can be made against, say, half-siblings who grew up not knowing about each other, meet when they are adults, fall in love and want to get married. This would be a case where incest does not equal rape, and as described above, any risk to the hypothetical children this couple may decide to have is purely the couple's concern and business.

 

In fact, the difference between "biological" (based on genetics) and "social" (based on relationships) incest is probably why many people (myself included) feel so uncomfortable about Woody Allen and his wife. They are not related at all, so no genetic issue, and I guess he never legally adopted her, but the mere fact that he knew and parented her when she was a child / young teenager and went on to have a sexual relationship with her is enough to make your skin crawl.... It just doesn't feel right.

[VelociRapture]

I haven’t had anyone confide in me about having an abortion. I’m sure I know someone who has had one, but it’s not my place to go questioning people about it just like no one has the right to question me about whether I had a miscarriage. If someone wants you to know, they’ll let you know. If they don’t then that should be respected. 

[treehugger]

I was surprised to find out that Canada has that high of an abortion rate as well, considering how many women use BC here, but I was listening to CBC yesterday, and they were doing a segment on teenagers and birth control. Apparently the new recommendation here in Canada is to use an IUD for teenagers (which makes perfect sense to me. It has the best success rate for a reversible contraceptive, and is basically fool proof. I have it. And while I know some people don't do well with it, it is a great option.) According to CBC, North America has the lowest usage of IUDs, so I am wondering if user error and using less reliable forms of birth control might contribute to our higher abortion rate. 

[SorenaJ]

2 hours ago, AprilQuilt said:

 I would also say that not all abortions are of accidental/unwanted pregnancies. For example, the foetus might have a condition that is not compatible with life, or it is dying anyway and waiting for spontaneous abortion/miscarriage will put the mother in danger (abortion was illegal in both these scenarios in Ireland). It's not unheard-of that a planned pregnancy might be aborted if a couple separate or have some sort of crisis that makes them judge it's not the right time to have a baby; a woman might also choose to abort if she is leaving an abusive relationship in which her partner used pregnancy to control her.

 You might not know anybody who has had an abortion, but then again you might just not know that they have. How would you? They will have literally nothing to distinguish them.

Gotcha, yeah, that was not clear from my post, I'm sure a lot of abortions happen because there is something wrong with the fetus, where an abortion would be preferable, and for tons of other reasons. I suppose it was harder before smartphones as well, no easy app reminders to take your pill or get a shot. 

Okay, actually, I just came up with a reason. Say you drop the "Tuesday" pill on the floor, you throw it out, take next Tuesday's pill, next Tuesday you are distracted and think you have already taken your pill. That could lead to accidents. I get it. Sort of. 

And yeah, I mean, I might know people who have had an abortion, but nothing they have announced to me. So I wouldn't know if I know. 

[sansan]

On 5/28/2018 at 11:20 AM, VelociRapture said:

I support the right to choose for any reason. I’ve been pregnant, have given birth, and am currently raising a child - I know how difficult all those things can be and it makes me much more certain that every woman should have the right to decide for themselves whether to continue a pregnancy or not. Pregnancy, birth, and parenthood are hard and they aren’t for everyone. No one should be forced to go through with that if they don’t want to. Pregnancy and children should never be used as punishments for women who have sex and get pregnant.

I don’t like abortion (I don’t think anyone does) and I don’t know if I’d be capable of having one myself, but that doesn’t mean I have the right to tell someone else what to do with their body and their life.

I think we should be careful here. Every woman is unique and what’s right for one woman isn’t necessarily right for another woman. Some women may very much want an abortion if the baby is the product of rape, but some women may not want one too - they may very much want to raise the child themself or place the child for adoption instead. There’s never going to be a “one size fits all” when it comes to abortion and we should be careful to avoid making unintentional generalizations or judgements about any of them for that reason.

I'm gonna step out on a limb here and make a comment knowing I may get slammed. There are reasons for legitimate abortions, health issues for a woman or severely ill fetus, being a couple. With all that being said, isn't there a morning after pill for rape victims? Why wait until a pregnancy develops to take care of that? What will probably get me stoned is abortions should not be a form of birth control, there is way too many other ways to take care of that. I once read an article about a woman that have 7 or 8 abortions, using them (in her own words) as a form of birth control. That is too sad. She has since come to regret her decisions about how she handled things. Not sure if she has children now or not.

[HarleyQuinn]

8 minutes ago, sansan said:

abortions should not be a form of birth control, 

The issue I have with this statement is that is NOT why the majority of people get abortions. I'm hesitant to even believe anyone who says they got an abortion for that reason. That to me feels like an anti choice narrative. There's no logic behind that.

 

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, SweetJuly said:

In fact, the difference between "biological" (based on genetics) and "social" (based on relationships) incest is probably why many people (myself included) feel so uncomfortable about Woody Allen and his wife. They are not related at all, so no genetic issue, and I guess he never legally adopted her, but the mere fact that he knew and parented her when she was a child / young teenager and went on to have a sexual relationship with her is enough to make your skin crawl.... It just doesn't feel right.

I hate that fucker. The betrayal Mia Farrow must have felt!

[Captain Obvious]

The only person I know who had an abortion had one when she was in her early-mid 20s and we were colleagues/friends. At the time, I thought it was the right move because her then partner was an abusive jerk, and she wasn't mentally in a good place herself either.

15 years later, she hasn't had a long-term relationship since (plenty of short-medium-term ones though) and she posted on FB the other day that she had a miscarriage during her second trimester. She's in her late 30s now, and wasn't in a relationship with the baby's father, so that was probably her last chance.

I'm sure she thinks about that abortion all the time now. It's just really sad. 

[VelociRapture]

3 minutes ago, sansan said:

I'm gonna step out on a limb here and make a comment knowing I may get slammed. There are reasons for legitimate abortions, health issues for a woman or severely ill fetus, being a couple. With all that being said, isn't there a morning after pill for rape victims? Why wait until a pregnancy develops to take care of that? What will probably get me stoned is abortions should not be a form of birth control, there is way too many other ways to take care of that. I once read an article about a woman that have 7 or 8 abortions, using them (in her own words) as a form of birth control. That is too sad. She has since come to regret her decisions about how she handled things. Not sure if she has children now or not.

Regarding rape victims specifically, every victim will react differently. Some people just shut down because dealing with what happened immediately is too traumatic for them to handle. Unfortunately, that can mean they miss the window for taking emergency contraception, among other things (like having a rape kit done.) Or, in other cases, a victim might be held against their will or prevented from obtaining emergency contraception, either by the rapist or someone else. I believe there have been cases where Pharmacists or other medical professionals have tried refusing to hand it out because it “goes against their beliefs.” It's entirely possible that some rape victims were denied the pill that way. Or, it’s possible that some victims come from cultures where rape is viewed as the woman’s fault, she’s scared her rape will be revealed if she tries getting the pill, and so she opts to skip getting it.

Basically, all victims are different and they all react differently. They should never be subjected to judgement for failing to obtain emergency contraception because they’re already dealing with enough shit as it is. 

I doubt anyone likes the idea of abortion in general or abortion used as a form of birth control more specifically, but abortion absolutely needs to be a viable option for any woman in any situation. Limiting abortions to only certain circumstances can be a pretty slippery slope. 

 

[SilverBeach]

13 minutes ago, sansan said:

I'm gonna step out on a limb here and make a comment knowing I may get slammed. There are reasons for legitimate abortions, health issues for a woman or severely ill fetus, being a couple. With all that being said, isn't there a morning after pill for rape victims? Why wait until a pregnancy develops to take care of that? What will probably get me stoned is abortions should not be a form of birth control, there is way too many other ways to take care of that. I once read an article about a woman that have 7 or 8 abortions, using them (in her own words) as a form of birth control. That is too sad. She has since come to regret her decisions about how she handled things. Not sure if she has children now or not.

With access to abortion extremely limited in parts of the US, despite its legality, abortion as birth control is not really a thing.

I believe that de-facto prohibition of abortion by not allowing the facilities to be available is wrong. 

An all-powerful God can resurrect any life. No one has to justify their reason for an elective abortion to you or anybody else. And folks stating they don't know anybody who has had an abortion are naive at best. Women don't normally shout it from the rooftops and sometimes don't tell their own mothers, precisely because of the judgmental attitude of many even in this day and age.

It is imperative that a woman's body be under her control and only her control, or we are setting the groundwork for Gilead. 

Stepping out of this topic of doom now. There will never be agreement. 

[AprilQuilt]

35 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Okay, actually, I just came up with a reason. Say you drop the "Tuesday" pill on the floor, you throw it out, take next Tuesday's pill, next Tuesday you are distracted and think you have already taken your pill. That could lead to accidents. I get it. Sort of. 

Oh, yeah, that's a good one. Or, they DO take the pill every day but one day throw up for some reason, and therefore lose the pill they took. 

 

20 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

The issue I have with this statement is that is NOT why the majority of people get abortions. I'm hesitant to even believe anyone who says they got an abortion for that reason. That to me feels like an anti choice narrative. There's no logic behind that.

hear hear. Even if we are to assume these women feel nothing for their pregnancy, abortion is a major hassle, is physically unpleasant, may require time off work, sometimes involves a general anaesthetic, and afterwards you bleed a bunch. It's so far from being the 'convenient' choice. I can't imagine many people choose to do that on the regular. 

[SilverBeach]

I must say that I was bothered by the fact that I had to sign a long permission form for my daughter to be given an aspirin when she was in school, yet she could have an invasive medical procedure without my knowledge. No matter the politics of it all, there is no getting around the fact that surgical abortion in particular is objectively a medical procedure, and non-surgical options involve medications stronger than aspirin. Not sure what the answer is, but this disparity isn't it.

[singsingsing]

16 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

The only person I know who had an abortion had one when she was in her early-mid 20s and we were colleagues/friends. At the time, I thought it was the right move because her then partner was an abusive jerk, and she wasn't mentally in a good place herself either.

15 years later, she hasn't had a long-term relationship since (plenty of short-medium-term ones though) and she posted on FB the other day that she had a miscarriage during her second trimester. She's in her late 30s now, and wasn't in a relationship with the baby's father, so that was probably her last chance.

I'm sure she thinks about that abortion all the time now. It's just really sad. 

Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. No one but her can know that, unless she chooses to share. I know that wanting a child and realizing that it might never happen can be a heartbreaking experience. But enough to think, "Gosh, I wish I'd had a baby with my abusive partner when I wasn't in a good place in my early 20s?" 

[Bajovane]

A very dear friend of mine aborted a very much wanted pregnancy when she discovered at the first ultrasound that the fetus had no brain.  Anacephalic.  No hope.  She couldn't bear going another five months of a doomed pregnancy.  You wouldn't believe the judgement she faced when she updated a FB group she was in - it was awful.

My own sister had an abortion when she was in her teens.  I didn't know anything about it until she told me over 25 years later.  No judgement at all from me.  She was just too damn young then.

There are a lot of reasons why one might make that choice - but I will bet big money that very few of those reasons are frivolous.

[IntrinsicallyDisordered]

9 minutes ago, Bajovane said:

A very dear friend of mine aborted a very much wanted pregnancy when she discovered at the first ultrasound that the fetus had no brain.  Anacephalic.  No hope.  She couldn't bear going another five months of a doomed pregnancy.  You wouldn't believe the judgement she faced when she updated a FB group she was in - it was awful.

My own sister had an abortion when she was in her teens.  I didn't know anything about it until she told me over 25 years later.  No judgement at all from me.  She was just too damn young then.

There are a lot of reasons why one might make that choice - but I will bet big money that very few of those reasons are frivolous.

Even when I was pro-life (very, very much pro-choice now) I would get into fights with other pro-lifers, including my mother about cases like these.  It is absolutely monstrous to me to force a woman to carry a pregnancy like that to term if she doesn't want to, and it is what started me realizing there is very little concern for the mother, despite the platitudes about protecting both.  One of the most affecting signs in Ireland for me was one with a picture of Savita and "she had a heartbeat too" written on it.

[SweetJuly]

I am very much against the idea of banning (or taking the slippery slope of limiting) something that is clearly necessary based on the fact that someone somewhere might abuse it.

There probably are women who use abortion as a form of birth control. Let's face it, there's all sorts of people, and nothing is impossible.

However, one thing you can be certain about - women who use abortion as a form of birth control probably have some sort of issue going on in their life. If anything, they need help, not judgment.

[JillyO]

Just now, Captain Obvious said:

The only person I know who had an abortion had one when she was in her early-mid 20s and we were colleagues/friends. At the time, I thought it was the right move because her then partner was an abusive jerk, and she wasn't mentally in a good place herself either.

15 years later, she hasn't had a long-term relationship since (plenty of short-medium-term ones though) and she posted on FB the other day that she had a miscarriage during her second trimester. She's in her late 30s now, and wasn't in a relationship with the baby's father, so that was probably her last chance.

I'm sure she thinks about that abortion all the time now. It's just really sad. 

Like @singsingsing said - maybe she does and maybe she doesn't. Not sure how you can possibly be sure about that.

Here's a marginally similar story: In her early 20s, my mother-in-law and her now-husband were a couple. They were very much in love. Mother-in-law got pregnant, and found out about the pregnancy right after she and now-husband had broken up because now-husband had moved from Germany to South America for school/job reasons. This was the 80s, mind you, so they figured a long-distance relationship was not really in the cards. Mother-in-law had an abortion because she did not want to raise a child alone and she was broke (she was still in college and her parents had completely cut her off at that point - no contact whatsoever).

She went on to get married a few years later, finished her schooling, had two kids. Now-husband returned to Germany after a few years, also got married and had two kids. They stayed friendly.

About ten years later, both marriages failed, and mother-in-law and now-husband got back together. They were now in their late 30s, and while they would have loved to have biological children together, it simply didn't happen at that point.

Long story short: Does my mother-in-law still think of the fetus she aborted and wonder 'what if' sometimes? She does - she's told me. But she also told me that never for a second has she doubted that she made the right decision. And she sure as hell believes that it was her decision to make. Thankfully, she was allowed to make that decision.

[Alice in Fundieland]

59 minutes ago, sansan said:

I'm gonna step out on a limb here and make a comment knowing I may get slammed. There are reasons for legitimate abortions, health issues for a woman or severely ill fetus, being a couple. With all that being said, isn't there a morning after pill for rape victims? Why wait until a pregnancy develops to take care of that? What will probably get me stoned is abortions should not be a form of birth control, there is way too many other ways to take care of that. I once read an article about a woman that have 7 or 8 abortions, using them (in her own words) as a form of birth control. That is too sad. She has since come to regret her decisions about how she handled things. Not sure if she has children now or not.

I have never been in a position where I felt I had to choose abortion so I consider myself fortunate.  I don’t want someone else determining what I should or shouldn’t do with my body and that’s why I would never do that to someone else. I doubt there are many people who enjoy choosing abortion, but for some it is their best option and I respect their ability to make that choice.

This is genuine, so I hope it doesn’t come off as sanctimonious. Please know that I am being sincere and simply trying to explain my own thoughts on the point you raised.  You obviously have every right to your opinion, and I don’t want to slam you for it. There is no judgment from me on your opinions regarding abortion just like I pass no judgment on women who choose abortion, no matter their reasoning. 

[SweetJuly]

As for thinking of the embryo one has aborted - I mentioned previously somewhere here on FJ that I had an abortion many years ago. It was and I still consider it the right decision; never had any regrets about it.

Do I sometimes think about the embryo? Yes, sometimes, but not wistfully. I think that I could be having a x-year-old child now, that I would be connected to and parenting this child with a man who never was the right partner for me, and that my life certainly would have taken a very different turn. Don't know if my current situation would be better or worse, just know it would be different, and I feel relieved, grateful, and fortunate that my life is as it is now because I love it that way.

I have to admit that I was having concerns along the lines of "will I ever be able to conceive again?", "will I be able to carry a pregnancy to term?", but I was reassured by my health care provider that the termination had been done early, safely, and without any side effects or complications, and that there should be no problem whatsoever. When I met my husband and told him about the abortion and shared my fears with him, we decided that we'd simply take it as it comes - if I (and he  ) could have children, we would; if it wasn't going to happen, we'd be fine too and enjoy being childless/childfree.

I conceived quickly and easily when my husband and I decided to "start trying" (or rather: stop preventing). I'm currently in my 34th week of pregnancy, no concerns or difficulties whatsoever so far apart from the usual pregnancy complaints.

The next bit is hypothetical, of course, but I do think that if I had turned out to never be lucky enough to conceive again, I would have definitely felt sad for a while - mourning my fertility, the fact my husband and I would never have children together, and so on.

However, I still wouldn't have wanted a baby with that man at that earlier point in my life.

[closetcagebaby]

1 hour ago, sansan said:

I'm gonna step out on a limb here and make a comment knowing I may get slammed. There are reasons for legitimate abortions, health issues for a woman or severely ill fetus, being a couple. With all that being said, isn't there a morning after pill for rape victims? Why wait until a pregnancy develops to take care of that? What will probably get me stoned is abortions should not be a form of birth control, there is way too many other ways to take care of that. I once read an article about a woman that have 7 or 8 abortions, using them (in her own words) as a form of birth control. That is too sad. She has since come to regret her decisions about how she handled things. Not sure if she has children now or not.

Plan B is not 100% effective at preventing pregnancy. Besides that, a rape victim may not be able to access that type of medication, especially if they have an abusive or controlling partner. I highly doubt that even half a percent of women use abortion as birth control. It fucking sucks - I bled for over a month following mine. It’s not an easy, in and out thing and it’s also pretty expensive. 

As a rape survivor and abortion haver, I would ask you to think more carefully about your judgment and bias towards women in these difficult situations. 

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

I must say that I was bothered by the fact that I had to sign a long permission form for my daughter to be given an aspirin when she was in school, yet she could have an invasive medical procedure without my knowledge. No matter the politics of it all, there is no getting around the fact that surgical abortion in particular is objectively a medical procedure, and non-surgical options involve medications stronger than aspirin. Not sure what the answer is, but this disparity isn't it.

I'm wondering, where are you from? Where I'm from, the only thing a minor can consent to is prenatal care. definitely not to an abortion, medical or surgical, and yeah any other medical care requires guardian consent. 

[Escadora]

Whether or not a person believes that abortion should not be allowed as a 'form of birth control' (that statement is fucked up but whatever), the reality is that there are always going to be women, sadly, who undergo the procedure of termination for reasons that other people would consider unworthy. 

If you, like me, believe that women should have unhindered access to medically safe abortions if they need them for their own safety, then you just have to let go of the fact that there may be some woman out there who's going to abort because she had unsafe sex and doesn't want a baby (personally, I think that if a woman doesn't want to carry to term for whatever reason then she should be able and encouraged to seek safe abortions - lest we go back to the days of those cliche back alley abortions and coat hangers and such - and I don't think promiscuity is bad or a character flaw, but I realise not everyone shares this viewpoint). 

As a general rule I try to encourage people to be of the mindset that if it's not your life, your financial and emotional situation, and if it's not your uterus, then it's not your opinion to have or to share, but - again - I know not everyone agrees. 

Perhaps I'd feel differently if there were widespread support for children born to women who rather would have aborted due to their domestic/financial/emotional situation, and if there weren't already countless children lost in the system without parents or a stable home, but as pro-life people seem only to give a crap about those precious unborns and not the babies, children, and women who are already here, I can't help but conclude that I'd rather have laws that allow for women at risk to obtain medically safe abortions, regardless of whether or not some women may also use abortion as their 'birth control' (again, yuck, that phrase is ridiculous, and shows a total lack of education on the logistics, both social and medical, of abortion and birth control).

If rape weren't a thing, if birth control was 100% effective, and human bodies were capable of knowing when not to get pregnant and so didn't at the wrong times, then we wouldn't need abortion, but things happen, and as a society, more help should be extended to women who find themselves pregnant when they don't wish to be, whether that ends in abortion or not.