Seewalds 33: Schroedinger’s Uterus

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I know of 3 of my friends who have and an abortion, and all 3 for different yet valid reasons  All 3 believe it was the right choice for them, so who am I to judge them? Not my life not my business.  I've been fortunate that I've never been in the position to make that choice, I have taken Plan B once when the condom broke  at the worst possible time of the month, off to PP, (this was the 90's) I was very grateful for this option this was 5 months before my wedding and I did NOT want to be a pregnant bride.  Some would say that is an abortion, I don't, did it stop a pregnancy? I don't know, but if I would or wouldn't have gotten pregnant at that time but thanks to Plan B I didn't have to find out. 

 

I believe @VelociRapture  spoke of not thinking of the fetus as a life until 23 weeks, I feel the exact same way.  I think it has the POTENTIAL to be a life, until the fetus can survive outside the womb it isn't a life, it is an extension of the mother. I quote this verse to prove my point to Christians.  Genesis 2:7 "Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being."

[Foudeb]

It's interesting that the same people who don't know anyone who's had an abortion also know specific people who have repeat abortions "as birth control".

So many brave women came forwards with their story during the Irish referendum campaign. Regular people, daughters, sisters, mothers, grandmothers, co-workers, neighbours. It happens. It happens after a low-cost flight to the nearest place it's allowed. It happens with unsterilised coat-hangers. It happens at home, alone because telling anyone makes you risk jailtime, with pills you're not sure are what they say there are, with no one save you if you pass out from the bleeding.

Should we all make sure it happens in a safe environment when it does happen? Should be a no-brainer.

There are still plenty of ways to be pro-life. Make sure all children get universal health care and access to a good education. Make sure women who flee abusive relationships have safe places to stay. Make sure everyone has access to free, safe birth control and to safe, free antenatal and childbirth care. Make sure there is plenty of help available to the parents of disabled children, including free healthcare and regular, good-quality, free respite care. Do not allow anyone to put any kind of stigma on single mothers, young mothers, poor mothers, mothers who have more children than they can feed - they are after all the heroes who chose to carry the pregnancy to term. Instead go do something to pro-actively help. When did you last babysit for free? When did you last volunteer to help children from deprived backgrounds do their homework? When did you last lobby your elected representative to make sure that all poor children get fed and housed on your taxes?

[Carm_88]

I know one person who had an abortion, a friend of a friend who made a silly choice when it came to contraception. She was a university student and the baby's father was far away, she had done semester elsewhere. She made the best decision for her and though at the time, I felt kind of odd about it; I have a better understanding now. 

As for Plan B, that always brings me back to this story, a pharmacist friend of mine told me once. A woman came in, she was in her early 40s and said that she wanted Plan B. She knew that the chances of pregnancy were small, but her and her significant other had unprotected sex, so she wanted to be sure. She made sure that they gave her the exact instructions to the Plan B. The next time my friend saw her, she was clearly pregnant. So nah, Plan B doesn't always work. 

[Bad Wolf]

You cannot ban abortion, you can only make it illegal.

[IntrinsicallyDisordered]

15 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

You cannot ban abortion, you can only make it illegal.

I read something once that put it like this - a woman doesn't want an abortion like she wants a new handbag or a bikini body.  She wants an abortion like an animal caught in a trap wants to gnaw their own limb off.

Abortion is going to happen in our world and we need to make it safe.  We also need better access to education, contraception, comprehensive health care, good paying jobs, a social safety net with affordable child care...my heart breaks for women who would continue with the pregnancy but can't because of their circumstances and I don't understand why more pro-lifers don't see that there are so many things they can fight for if they really want to reduce the numbers (just kidding, I know why and it has nothing to do with the "babies").

Also, no matter when life begins, no human being should be legally compelled to provide another with their organs.  We do not force a mother to give her born child a kidney, a lung, a heart, or even blood, even if she is the only compatible donor (don't get any ideas, Republicans).

[justoneoftwo]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I must say that I was bothered by the fact that I had to sign a long permission form for my daughter to be given an aspirin when she was in school, yet she could have an invasive medical procedure without my knowledge. No matter the politics of it all, there is no getting around the fact that surgical abortion in particular is objectively a medical procedure, and non-surgical options involve medications stronger than aspirin. Not sure what the answer is, but this disparity isn't it.

I think this comes down to the problem of when children are autonomous.  Obviously children should be protected, and in general we do that by letting their parents make decisions (like about medical care, my two year old would not want vaccinations, because they hurt, I know better).  We also protect them by letting them make their own decisions and by protecting them from their parents sometimes (like with abortions).  So really the question is when is that girl old enough to make the choice herself?  When is she competent?  When do we assume we need to protect a minor from their parents instead of assuming the parents should protect the minor?  

These are hard questions.  I'm not convinced we have come to any good conclusions, but they are so hard I understand why we haven't.  

[Alisamer]

2 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

I think this comes down to the problem of when children are autonomous.  Obviously children should be protected, and in general we do that by letting their parents make decisions (like about medical care, my two year old would not want vaccinations, because they hurt, I know better).  We also protect them by letting them make their own decisions and by protecting them from their parents sometimes (like with abortions).  So really the question is when is that girl old enough to make the choice herself?  When is she competent?  When do we assume we need to protect a minor from their parents instead of assuming the parents should protect the minor?  

These are hard questions.  I'm not convinced we have come to any good conclusions, but they are so hard I understand why we haven't.  

I agree this is really hard. I tend to err on the side of allowing pregnant women (and children) to make their own decisions, despite their age. If they feel their parents shouldn't be told, I believe them. Are some of them wrong? Sure. But some of them know that telling their parents is dangerous - they may be forced to keep an unwanted pregnancy, they may be kicked out of the house, they may be beaten or killed. 

My mom told me (long before I ever thought of starting dating) that if I ever turned up pregnant I'd have to find someplace else to live. I'm still not sure if she meant that or not. She wouldn't have beaten me, and my dad likely would have been disappointed but supportive, but mom had a bad temper and I am glad I never had to face that issue. Even thinking about it now terrifies me. But I know that even as an otherwise perfectly normal kid from a perfectly normal christian family, if I had become pregnant as a teenager I would have immediately tried to do whatever it takes to get an abortion without my parents finding out, because I would have been absolutely TERRIFIED of how my mother would have reacted. 

[justoneoftwo]

9 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I agree this is really hard. I tend to err on the side of allowing pregnant women (and children) to make their own decisions, despite their age. If they feel their parents shouldn't be told, I believe them. Are some of them wrong? Sure. But some of them know that telling their parents is dangerous - they may be forced to keep an unwanted pregnancy, they may be kicked out of the house, they may be beaten or killed. 

My mom told me (long before I ever thought of starting dating) that if I ever turned up pregnant I'd have to find someplace else to live. I'm still not sure if she meant that or not. She wouldn't have beaten me, and my dad likely would have been disappointed but supportive, but mom had a bad temper and I am glad I never had to face that issue. Even thinking about it now terrifies me. But I know that even as an otherwise perfectly normal kid from a perfectly normal christian family, if I had become pregnant as a teenager I would have immediately tried to do whatever it takes to get an abortion without my parents finding out, because I would have been absolutely TERRIFIED of how my mother would have reacted. 

Okay, so should they be able to get aspirin in school then?  Without parents being told?  Or meds for ADHD and depression?  Some parents react really badly to that too, some kick their kids out or just refuse to allow them help.  When does that kid get to decide?  

I'm not trying to be difficult, I just really want to know what people think of these things.

[VelociRapture]

For our non-US posters, here’s a recent case that went all the way to the US Supreme Court:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/489182/

Basically, a pharmacy chain decided they shouldn’t have to carry emergency contraception because of their religious beliefs and they cited another SCOTUS case that stated employers can opt to offer insurance plans that don’t cover birth control because of religious beliefs. Fucking Hobby Lobby. The pharmacy chain was challenging a Washington state law that forced pharmacies there to carry all FDA approved medications and prevents them from denying the medication to patients. SCOTUS eventually denied to hear the case at all and, fortunately, the case died. 

Here’s another article from last year that discusses how some hospitals failed to offer rape victims emergency contraception, despite being located in states where it is legally required it be offered:

 https://www.google.com/amp/www.teenvogue.com/story/hospitals-didnt-give-rape-victims-emergency-contraception/amp

Here are two quick screenshots from the second article:

 

ETA: One final screenshot:

Keep in mind, this article was published last year. So this is very much a current issue that rape victims and other women are facing. This is just a taste of the struggles some US women face in attempting to obtain emergency contraception or contraception in general. It’s bad enough that any woman be denied competent care and the medicine they need, but there’s something especially revolting about failing to offer rape victims emergency contraception at the hospital. 

25 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I agree this is really hard. I tend to err on the side of allowing pregnant women (and children) to make their own decisions, despite their age. If they feel their parents shouldn't be told, I believe them. Are some of them wrong? Sure. But some of them know that telling their parents is dangerous - they may be forced to keep an unwanted pregnancy, they may be kicked out of the house, they may be beaten or killed. 

My mom told me (long before I ever thought of starting dating) that if I ever turned up pregnant I'd have to find someplace else to live. I'm still not sure if she meant that or not. She wouldn't have beaten me, and my dad likely would have been disappointed but supportive, but mom had a bad temper and I am glad I never had to face that issue. Even thinking about it now terrifies me. But I know that even as an otherwise perfectly normal kid from a perfectly normal christian family, if I had become pregnant as a teenager I would have immediately tried to do whatever it takes to get an abortion without my parents finding out, because I would have been absolutely TERRIFIED of how my mother would have reacted. 

My dad said the same thing to us. We weren’t overly concerned though because our mom is a major Momma Bear and would have kicked him out of the house for even attempting it. 

It has made me think carefully about how to approach the subject when my daughter gets older though. I think my husband and I need to talk more, but I don’t think either of us would ever threaten to kick her out for getting pregnant as a teenager. Teenagers are people and sometimes people don’t make the best choices and other times horrible people take their right to say no away from them. Kicking her out wouldn’t do her, us, or the baby any good in either situation - plus, we want to see her succeed and offering her healthy support in that type of situation could help her achieve her educational and professional goals.

[Alisamer]

1 hour ago, justoneoftwo said:

Okay, so should they be able to get aspirin in school then?  Without parents being told?  Or meds for ADHD and depression?  Some parents react really badly to that too, some kick their kids out or just refuse to allow them help.  When does that kid get to decide?  

I'm not trying to be difficult, I just really want to know what people think of these things.

I think it's hard. I can understand the medicine thing - the school is giving it to them and therefore are responsible, and they are not doctors. Schools aren't giving anyone abortions so I feel that's a completely different thing. If they were getting an abortion or emergency contraception through the school, then sure, same forms. Getting an aspirin at school (even from the school nurse, if there is one) is a different thing than going to planned parenthood and seeing a doctor, IMO. There's an assumption of responsibility of a school toward a child. It's apples and oranges, to me.

Also for those not in the US, it might be helpful to know that pharmacies work somewhat differently here. When I've gone to a pharmacist while traveling, you tell the pharmacist your symptoms and they give you the medicine they recommend to treat what you have. Here in the US, that's not really how it works anywhere I've been - the pharmacist fills prescriptions written by a doctor. "Over the counter" means "grab it off the shelf yourself" for most drugs (unless it can be used to make meth, then you have to sign for it, or it's likely to be stolen and they keep it locked up). The pharmacist might answer questions about OTC medications, if you stand in line and ask, but they don't prescribe things in my experience.

ETA - birth control requires a prescription, except condoms, of course; and emergency contraception is one of those things that are locked up behind the counter, which is how some pharmacists refuse to sell it.

[AprilQuilt]

40 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Also for those not in the US, it might be helpful to know that pharmacies work somewhat differently here. When I've gone to a pharmacist while traveling, you tell the pharmacist your symptoms and they give you the medicine they recommend to treat what you have. Here in the US, that's not really how it works anywhere I've been - the pharmacist fills prescriptions written by a doctor. "Over the counter" means "grab it off the shelf yourself" for most drugs (unless it can be used to make meth, then you have to sign for it, or it's likely to be stolen and they keep it locked up). The pharmacist might answer questions about OTC medications, if you stand in line and ask, but they don't prescribe things in my experience.

I reeeeeaallly notice when in America how 'consumerised' drugs are. The fact they can be advertised on TV is a difference, of course, but also the variety that can be bought off the shelf in a pharmacy, and how much the little shelf labels push you to make a purchase. The US drug industry is not new news, but I hadn't quite realised how different my cultural mindset is. I expect pharmacists to gatekeep; I do not believe myself authorised to decide my own medication as a consumer, but to be directed by professionals as a patient.

(obviously I get that plenty of drugs must be prescribed, it's not a total free-for-all. But it is still very different from the UK.)

[IntrinsicallyDisordered]

43 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

I reeeeeaallly notice when in America how 'consumerised' drugs are. The fact they can be advertised on TV is a difference, of course, but also the variety that can be bought off the shelf in a pharmacy, and how much the little shelf labels push you to make a purchase. The US drug industry is not new news, but I hadn't quite realised how different my cultural mindset is. I expect pharmacists to gatekeep; I do not believe myself authorised to decide my own medication as a consumer, but to be directed by professionals as a patient.

(obviously I get that plenty of drugs must be prescribed, it's not a total free-for-all. But it is still very different from the UK.)

I'm an American living in Belgium and this is a difference I love...I have never seen an ad for a prescription medication on tv or in a magazine, I've never seen a pharma rep at the doctor's...when my doctor writes me a prescription I believe I need it.  Aside from most pharmacies being closed on weekends (they take turns being the one open for emergencies) I love them.  Much more involved and personable than I remember from the US.  Once my sister was visiting and hurt her knee on a friday afternoon, and my husband ran down to our usual corner pharmacy just as they were closing and explained the situation.  The pharmacist stayed open and had him run home with 2 different braces (unpaid for at that point) so my sister could try them on and see which one worked better for her.  Europe has its problems but to quote my sister, "What is this magical place?!?" 

[justoneoftwo]

1 hour ago, Alisamer said:

I think it's hard. I can understand the medicine thing - the school is giving it to them and therefore are responsible, and they are not doctors. Schools aren't giving anyone abortions so I feel that's a completely different thing. If they were getting an abortion or emergency contraception through the school, then sure, same forms. Getting an aspirin at school (even from the school nurse, if there is one) is a different thing than going to planned parenthood and seeing a doctor, IMO. There's an assumption of responsibility of a school toward a child. It's apples and oranges, to me.

Also for those not in the US, it might be helpful to know that pharmacies work somewhat differently here. When I've gone to a pharmacist while traveling, you tell the pharmacist your symptoms and they give you the medicine they recommend to treat what you have. Here in the US, that's not really how it works anywhere I've been - the pharmacist fills prescriptions written by a doctor. "Over the counter" means "grab it off the shelf yourself" for most drugs (unless it can be used to make meth, then you have to sign for it, or it's likely to be stolen and they keep it locked up). The pharmacist might answer questions about OTC medications, if you stand in line and ask, but they don't prescribe things in my experience.

ETA - birth control requires a prescription, except condoms, of course; and emergency contraception is one of those things that are locked up behind the counter, which is how some pharmacists refuse to sell it.

Your right, schools arn't giving medical care.  But my child can't got to a doctor to get anti depressants by himself, and if a doctor did prescribe them and I said he couldn't have them he would have a hard time getting them (ask me how I know, my parents didn't believe in them).  I don't know what the answer is, but it seems like teens in general maybe are more able to advocate for their health than we let them.

[Kittikatz]

5 hours ago, sansan said:

I'm gonna step out on a limb here and make a comment knowing I may get slammed. There are reasons for legitimate abortions, health issues for a woman or severely ill fetus, being a couple. With all that being said, isn't there a morning after pill for rape victims? Why wait until a pregnancy develops to take care of that? What will probably get me stoned is abortions should not be a form of birth control, there is way too many other ways to take care of that. I once read an article about a woman that have 7 or 8 abortions, using them (in her own words) as a form of birth control. That is too sad. She has since come to regret her decisions about how she handled things. Not sure if she has children now or not.

I'm sorry, but What the Ever-loving Fuck is wrong with you? Beyond clearly having zero empathy, and being completely devoid of imagination?

Pull your head out. Do some research. Read the news. Sexual Assault/Rape is traumatic. People who are rape survivors are often not emotionally able to seek assistance or report the assault until a substantial period of time has passed - if ever. Beyond the trauma, there is often fear of perpetrator/family members/romantic partner/authorities/not being believed topped off with a side of guilt plus outright denial and repression. The morning after pill is not well known (especially in areas with poor sex ed programs), and has a narrow window of effectiveness. Someone involved in this kind of turmoil may not be able to process their situation and emotions within the time frame necessary to utilize this medication. Also, there can be barriers to access (not all doctors/pharmacies dispense it) and cost is often a factor - especially for people who have no/inadequate insurance coverage.

Here are some links to why rape survivors often delay or fail to report. They explain it better than I could:

https://ocrsm.umd.edu/files/Why-Is-Sexual-Assault-Under-Reported.pdf

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

https://globalnews.ca/news/1845136/why-dont-women-report-rape-because-most-get-no-justice-when-they-do/

https://hellogiggles.com/lifestyle/health-fitness/sad-reasons-women-dont-feel-comfortable-reporting-sexual-assault/

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/top-8-unforgettable-tweets-of-why-victims-dont-report_us_59e28f4ae4b09e31db9759a5

Here are some links that explain the emotional trauma caused by rape:

https://psmag.com/social-justice/lifelong-consequences-rape-96056

https://www.rapevictimadvocates.org/what-you-need-to-know/effects-of-sexual-violence/

http://sanctuaryweb.com/Portals/0/Bloom Pubs/2003 Bloom Understanding impact sexual assault.pdf

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/10/how-the-trauma-of-sexual-_n_6294546.html

http://mtstandard.com/opinion/columnists/traumatized-victims-react-differently-to-rape/article_f01947b5-a251-5007-a37d-3412c46a344d.html

[nausicaa]

7 hours ago, sansan said:

With all that being said, isn't there a morning after pill for rape victims? Why wait until a pregnancy develops to take care of that? 

1. Plan B is not 100% effective, at all. I know of two women who were still pregnant after taking Plan B within 24 hours of unprotected sex. One carried to term and one terminated the pregnancy.  Neither were raped and both were adults in their 20s. 

2. Plan B is not always easy to get. Sadly, there are a lot of judgmental pharmacists out there. A lot of very young women also might not know about it, not know how to get it, or not know they can get it without a prescription. (I am 100% onboard with educated people more on Plan B, btw.) Also, it can cost up to $75 in some areas, which is a lot of money for some women.

3. I took Plan B once. (It thankfully worked. Well, I really don't know whether it worked or not, but at any rate I didn't become pregnant.) I was embarrassed, disappointed in myself, and can't convey how intimidating it is to walk into a pharmacy and not know whether the pharmacist is going to shame you, refuse you service, or who knows what else. And this was as a liberal 27 year old woman in a fairly liberal area who had just had consensual sex. (BTW, it turns out if a pharmacist at a 24-hour pharmacy sees a slightly distressed young women creeping towards the counter after midnight looking to make sure no one else is around, the pharmacist just slaps the Plan B right on the counter.) 

4. I have never been raped, but honestly would imagine that after having something so terrible happen, I would be thrown into a deep depression after the shock wore off. I might not be able to leave my house. I probably wouldn't be able to think clearly  and so wouldn't be thinking about a potential pregnancy (the idea might be too horrible to fathom at that point) and construct a clear plan on how to mitigate the chances of becoming pregnant.

13 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

This is gonna sound extremely judgmental, so apologies in advance, but how does one accidentally get pregnant and need an abortion? Okay, yeah, birth control might only be 99 % efficient, so there is that one percent, but how do you account for the rest?

Hoo boy, the human race has found ways to become accidentally pregnant for millenia. 

I know people who became accidentally pregnant because they drank too much and made a bad decision.

I know people who made a bad decision stone cold sober. 

I know women who forgot to take one pill a week earlier.

I know women who took antibiotics while on birth control without realizing the consequences.

I know women who had a partner cut a hole in the condom (thankfully she didn't become pregnant, but just wanted to point out that this does happen).

I know a woman who had her implant fall out during sex (the guy felt it dislodge but wanted "to finish.")

I know women who were promised by their boyfriends that their "pull out game was strong." It wasn't. (It never is...)

[closetcagebaby]

1 hour ago, justoneoftwo said:

Your right, schools arn't giving medical care.  But my child can't got to a doctor to get anti depressants by himself, and if a doctor did prescribe them and I said he couldn't have them he would have a hard time getting them (ask me how I know, my parents didn't believe in them).  I don't know what the answer is, but it seems like teens in general maybe are more able to advocate for their health than we let them.

Is this true? I thankfully was able to take my medical decisions into my own hands at 13/14 and get prescribed antidepressants without my mom’s consent or knowledge - and I think it’s a good thing that that decision was between my doctor and I and that I was able to access life saving medication. I understand why parents want to be involved, but I think most kids or teens will tell their parents if they’re able to and they have a safe relationship. Unfortunately, that isn’t always the case. 

[justoneoftwo]

13 minutes ago, closetcagebaby said:

Is this true? I thankfully was able to take my medical decisions into my own hands at 13/14 and get prescribed antidepressants without my mom’s consent or knowledge - and I think it’s a good thing that that decision was between my doctor and I and that I was able to access life saving medication. I understand why parents want to be involved, but I think most kids or teens will tell their parents if they’re able to and they have a safe relationship. Unfortunately, that isn’t always the case. 

Maybe there were ways to do it, but I certainly didn't know, and doctors would talk to parents about things as long as they weren't sexual.  The only doctor who examined me without my parents was the GYN.

[Shadoewolf]

I grew up with a girl who really did use abortion as birth control. She's had...10 or 11 now. Plus 5 kids from 4 different dads. It was heartbreaking during my battle with infertility when she very casually talked about terminating two of her pregnancies. I'd have given a million dollars to be and stay pregnant. She got so toxic I ended the friendship several years ago. 

I considered abortion 4 years ago. Many of you know I have a clotting disorder and an autistic child. Married but Hubby and I were not really in a good place in the relationship at that time. We'd had no scares and my OB said it was highly unlikely after 4 years of unprotected sex and having ano-ovulary cycles that I'd get pregnant. Color me surprised when I realized I was a week late and took a home test. I spent an hour locked in the bathroom, slumped on the floor crying to my best friend. Hubby and I were so not okay, I knew he wouldn't want another child, I was over 35, and the risks were high. We also lived in small town Arkansas. I told Hubby 3 days after finding out and he was not pleased at all. The closest Planned Parenthood was 3.5 hours away in Fayetteville and a chemical abortion prior to 9 weeks would cost $875. And if it didn't work I would then have no choice but surgery which would be $1250. I AGONIZED over it. Wasn't sure I could really do it. How could I live with myself? We decided to tough it out, and pursue the medication needed to maintain the pregnancy. Thankfully Mother Nature knew better and the embryo stopped developing early on. I miscarried at home but part of the placenta had attached to a major blood source and after 3 weeks of losing blood I had an emergency D&C. Doc was very straightforward with me, my age and the risks were a problem and she strongly recommended a tubal. I agreed! I don't know if I could have ever gone through with an abortion but I was SO glad that the option was there. Shit happens, sometimes when we least expect it. And no woman should be forced to act as an unwilling host. 

[Rachel333]

The conversation made me think of a post I saw on reddit recently.

Quote

My guy friends thought taking birth control everyday at the same time was easy and girls complain too much about it...

My friends got in a big debate over birth control. The boys said girls should be able to take the pill at the same time everyday as long as they put a reminder on their phone. Us girls explained things come up and it’s not as easy as it seems. After promising us they could take it for a month without missing a day, we put them to the test. One of them would send us a picture of the same marker at the same time everyday to symbolize taking a pill at the same time everyday (2 pm for him). After nine days he was late three times, completely missed a day, and quit.

 

[Sky with diamonds]

11 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I haven’t had anyone confide in me about having an abortion. I’m sure I know someone who has had one, but it’s not my place to go questioning people about it just like no one has the right to question me about whether I had a miscarriage. If someone wants you to know, they’ll let you know. If they don’t then that should be respected. 

Yes, this exactly. While I hoped someone would trust me enough to tell me, I know it's unlikely that I will ever be told. Then again, I will not ask.

[scribble]

5 hours ago, closetcagebaby said:

Is this true? I thankfully was able to take my medical decisions into my own hands at 13/14 and get prescribed antidepressants without my mom’s consent or knowledge - and I think it’s a good thing that that decision was between my doctor and I and that I was able to access life saving medication. I understand why parents want to be involved, but I think most kids or teens will tell their parents if they’re able to and they have a safe relationship. Unfortunately, that isn’t always the case.  

I was *just* at my kids' pediatrician office last week and had to sign a form for their new electronic database, and it noted that once my kids turn 13, I no longer have access to their lab reports and testing results -- only my kids can see them at that point. (I also can't look at their billing records and I wondered how that would work because my 13-year-old isn't going to be the one paying them.... though I guess a billing record might show some sort of testing that my 13-year-old didn't want me to know about?) Maybe it's this particular pediatrician, but at 13,  it seems my kids could essentially steer the ship when it comes to health care decisions. (My kids are no where near 13 so I don't really have a conception of how that all works at this point.)

[closetcagebaby]

20 minutes ago, scribble said:

I was *just* at my kids' pediatrician office last week and had to sign a form for their new electronic database, and it noted that once my kids turn 13, I no longer have access to their lab reports and testing results -- only my kids can see them at that point. (I also can't look at their billing records and I wondered how that would work because my 13-year-old isn't going to be the one paying them.... though I guess a billing record might show some sort of testing that my 13-year-old didn't want me to know about?) Maybe it's this particular pediatrician, but at 13,  it seems my kids could essentially steer the ship when it comes to health care decisions. (My kids are no where near 13 so I don't really have a conception of how that all works at this point.)

Interesting! I think I remember signing a form that essentially said I’d have to agree before anyone could view my medical records or anything, including a parent. Maybe it varies state by state or maybe 13 is the magic number. 

[RainbowSky]

9 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

Your right, schools arn't giving medical care.  But my child can't got to a doctor to get anti depressants by himself, and if a doctor did prescribe them and I said he couldn't have them he would have a hard time getting have  them (ask me how I know, my parents didn't believe in them).  I don't know what the answer is, but it seems like teens in general maybe are more able to advocate for their health than we let them.

At 14 legally here they can sign or not sign for their own mental health things. I know 100% for sure this is true. 

 

Also, I can't access anything for my 13yo anymore. I was not amused. Now they can't even tell me what day his freaking appt is and he sounds like a man in the phone so no one wants to tell him either.

 

And I knew 2 people in high school who had over 5 abortions. One, her Catholic mother found this a better option than her daughter being pregnant and single. 

The other was a self labeled slut and just didnt do anything to prevent, ever, and "took care of" whatever happened to come up. 

[Kittikatz]

The issue of young people and medical and legal consent is a tricky one. Some states/countries may have set ages of capacity, but most of the jurisdictions I'm familiar with use more of a subjective sliding scale based on the ability of the minor child to understand the issues they are faced with. Here, a child is generally able to make some autonomous decisions beginning at age 12 a child has privacy rights from their parents/guardians. At this age, a child in foster care can consent to being placed for permanent adoption (they can also consent on behalf of younger siblings), children can access basic counseling services at this age, and are permitted to consent to necessary medical services. As they age, they are given more legal and medical autonomy from parents or guardians. At around age 14 children can access more advanced services such as requesting prescription drugs including birth control and vaccinations. There was even a court case here where a 14 year old was judged competent to consent to an abortion. The judge found she understood the issues and implications and thus had capacity to consent. Her parents fought it to the court of appeal, but she prevailed. In practice, by the time most minors are around 16 they are treated very much as an adult when accessing medical services and giving legal consent.

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

8 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

Maybe there were ways to do it, but I certainly didn't know, and doctors would talk to parents about things as long as they weren't sexual.  The only doctor who examined me without my parents was the GYN.

i'm not sure when or where you grew up, but the standard of care is basically that at least some part of any doctor-patient interaction should be one-on-one if at all possible (anything from pubescent teens at the pedi office, adults who come into the ER with a partner, to elderly patients brought in by a caregiver) for the sake of that patient's health and possibly their safety. Physicians/healthcare providers are mandatory reporters if there is an issue that creates danger to that patient or to others around them.

Patient confidentiality is thing, and autonomy remains a guiding pillar of healthcare (especially in stubborn American consumerism....), even for minors - and ideally every HCP would be cognizant that these are *huge* components of building the so-called "therapeutic alliance" between patient and provider, early on. Of course the legal ability to consent is always a tricky issue - a legal guardian would discuss and *ideally* consent to what's best for a minor - though, if circumstances are serious enough for the patient, that right can be removed from the parent if necessary. Now, if a minor (or any american <26years still on parental insurance...) goes to the doc for something they don't want the parents to know about, it'll show up on insurance billing, sure - but again, providers are often able to find some *other* reason to code the billing if needed (example, my roommate in her 20s gets BC for "acne" bc her conservative asian parents still think she's a virgin). 

Sorry if this sounds on-a-high-horse-ish, I know that many people have less than ideal experiences with healthcare providers. As a future clinician myself (i take the first round of my licensure exam in - guess what - two days xD) I can only hold to what I've been taught and what I try to uphold myself.