Duggars by the Dozen 33: In touch with gossip

[SamiKatz]

6 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

I get called my dogs and cats names, and my cousins' names, and my brother's. I also get called Sophie (my name is not Sophie). 

My mother used to always call my now bro in law "Richard", which is not only not his name (very Italian name ending in O), but she doesn't even know anyone called Richard.  

 

[Bethella]

2 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I think underage marriage is being frowned upon in most parts of the US, I hadn't heard of any underage kids marrying around here in years, the 1st one I've heard about was a classmate of my daughter who married on her 18th birthday 2 months before she graduated. Everyone assumed she was pregnant, she wasn't/isn't but her husband is in the military and was moving overseas shortly after they married and she left to be with him the day after she graduated and they had to be married for her to live on base with him. 

Underage marriage may be frowned on in many circles in the US but it is far from uncommon. Between 2000 and 2010 almost 250,000 children were married in the US, some of them as young as 10. 

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2018/feb/06/it-put-an-end-to-my-childhood-the-hidden-scandal-of-us-child-marriage

[Carm_88]

It will be interesting to see in the years to come if the second generation Duggars continue on the path their parents have made. Anna hasn't slowed as of yet, Jill seems to be pretty far in the koolaid but c-sections will likely slow her, Jessa is up in the air, Jinger is yet to be determined, Joy has had a c-section and a massive baby, and Kendra had a relatively easy go of it. It means there could be a shit load of grandkids for JB and Michelle. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

23 minutes ago, Bethella said:

Underage marriage may be frowned on in many circles in the US but it is far from uncommon. Between 2000 and 2010 almost 250,000 children were married in the US, some of them as young as 10. 

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2018/feb/06/it-put-an-end-to-my-childhood-the-hidden-scandal-of-us-child-marriage

I was talking about willing 16/17 year old marrying, not forced illegal child brides. Child brides are a crime and pretty much only accepted in cults and or sex trafficking here in the US. 

[finnlassie]

1 hour ago, Bethella said:

Underage marriage may be frowned on in many circles in the US but it is far from uncommon. Between 2000 and 2010 almost 250,000 children were married in the US, some of them as young as 10. 

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2018/feb/06/it-put-an-end-to-my-childhood-the-hidden-scandal-of-us-child-marriage

I've been reading articles & seen some vids about child and forced marriage in the US, and it just... it sickens me. And everyt time it sickens me even more, especially knowing how young some of these... freaking literal children are.

Many believe child marriage is just the issue of some certain countries, especially in Asia, but the reality is that it's very freshly alive in the western states as well. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some child marriages in Finland too, that were not official according to the state, but due to culture/religion they've been forced to do so.

36 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I was talking about willing 16/17 year old marrying, not forced illegal child brides. Child brides are a crime and pretty much only accepted in cults and or sex trafficking here in the US. 

I'm gonna say no to this. I do not believe that a 16-year-old is old enough to dictate werther they're ready to marry or not.

But yeah. Sex trafficiking is a tragic issue. And right under our noses. Ugh.

[Palimpsest]

10 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I was talking about willing 16/17 year old marrying, not forced illegal child brides. Child brides are a crime and pretty much only accepted in cults and or sex trafficking here in the US. 

That is absolutely not true, unfortunately.  And legislators are very slow to change the laws in the states that allow child marriages.  My bolding:

Quote

Some 248,000 children at least as young as 12 were married in America between 2000 and 2010.

Actual data from 38 states showed more than 167,000 children wed in that decade. The other 12 states and Washington, DC, could not provide the data. For them, Unchained estimated the number of children wed, based on the strong correlation Unchained identified between population and child marriage.

Many states gave an age range for the youngest children married, such as "14 or younger." Just how much younger were the child brides and grooms?

http://www.unchainedatlast.org/child-marriage-shocking-statistics/

 

You obviously didn't read the article from the Guardian.  @Bethella's link may be wonky so let's try it again https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2018/feb/06/it-put-an-end-to-my-childhood-the-hidden-scandal-of-us-child-marriage: 

In case that doesn't work, some excerpts: And again, my bolding:

Quote

In most US states, the minimum age for marriage is 18. However, in every state exceptions to this rule are possible, the most common being when parents approve and a judge gives their consent. In 25 states, there is no minimum marriage age when such an exception is made. But now Johnson’s home state, Florida, is poised to pass a law that sets the minimum marriage age at 18 with very few exceptions – thanks largely to her campaigning.

“People thought: this can’t happen in Florida. The minimum marriage age is 18; what’s the problem? But they didn’t know about the loopholes. Between 2001 and 2015, 16,000 children were married in Florida alone. A 40-year-old man can legally marry a five-year-old girl here.”

They did pass that law in Florida, but then amended it to allow pregnant girls to marry sooner.

Quote

Apart from Florida, there are five states in the process of passing laws to end child marriage. It has been a tough battle, says Reiss, whose organisation has been campaigning for laws to be changed all over the country for three years.

It is a big problem.  That is why people like Vaughn Ohlman and his child marriage gigs went on so long - legally.  It was public outrage that shut his last one down, not legislation.  See:  https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/05/05/get-them-married-selling-virgin-daughters/

Back to the Guardian:

Quote

 After all, the US state department considers child marriage a human rights abuse. But everywhere there are politicians who think it’s a bad idea to change the law. You wouldn’t believe how many legislators have told me that if a girl gets pregnant, she’s got to get married.

And this is in the 21st century.

Quote

One female Democrat politician asked me: ‘Won’t you increase abortion rates if you end child marriage?’ That left me speechless.”

Because unborn babies are more important than pregnant children.  Apparently.

Quote

Last year, 17-year-old Girl Scout Cassandra Levesque campaigned to change the New Hampshire law that allows girls as young as 13 to get married if their parents approve. “My local representative introduced a bill that raised the minimum age to 18. But a couple of male representatives persuaded the others to kill the bill and to prevent it from being discussed again for some years,” she says. “One of them said that a 17-year-old Girl Scout couldn’t have a say in these matters.”

Although the archaic laws actually directly affects her.

Quote

it is “extremely ironic” that laws make exceptions when parents consent to a child marriage or when an underage girl is pregnant. “Because, in many cases, the pregnancy is the result of sexual abuse and the parents are forcing the girl to marry to prevent a scandal. So the law doesn’t protect the child at all. When an adult man has sex with an underage girl, this is considered statutory rape in many states. But when the perpetrator marries his victim, he can legally go on abusing her.”

And this is the absolute truth.

[Palimpsest]

4 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Like I said, I've never heard of it happening and I'd be very curious to see some numbers re: how many people actually get married before turning 18 here. 

Canada is working hard to prevent child marriage internationally. Be proud.   https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/child-marriage/canada/

[bucket]

1 hour ago, Bethella said:

Underage marriage may be frowned on in many circles in the US but it is far from uncommon. Between 2000 and 2010 almost 250,000 children were married in the US, some of them as young as 10. 

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2018/feb/06/it-put-an-end-to-my-childhood-the-hidden-scandal-of-us-child-marriage

25000 child marriages in a year is like, 1% of all marriages.  That's pretty uncommon IMO.  

Just definitely not unheard of. 

[Tiny Bubbles]

4 hours ago, singsingsing said:

 That is beautiful.

Underage marriage is extremely rare where I live, too. I've never heard of it happening (in recent years, obviously it was more common ~100 years ago). I actually just had to go and look up the legal age to get married in Ontario. Apparently it's 16, but if you're under 18 you have to have written permission from your parents. Like I said, I've never heard of it happening and I'd be very curious to see some numbers re: how many people actually get married before turning 18 here. 

This was 35 years ago, but my cousin in Ontario got married at 17, and yes, she did have to get her parents' written permission.  It seemed extremely  unusual even then!  They are still together, btw.

[SassyPants]

13 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

Not to mention that it seems like most of them end up having enormous babies with fairly major labor/birth complications, and they seem oddly opposed to getting proper prenatal care despite having more than enough money to get it. Something will give eventually. Michelle was lucky that until Josie, most of her pregnancies were pretty uneventful. It doesn't seem like it's that way for her daughters. 

Jessa was EMS'd to the emergency room and required a blood transfusion (and did a repeat home birth some 15 months later)

Sam was in the Nicu for 2 weeks, purportedly.

And Josie...

These folks are going to need an actual death, and I still don't know if they'll fully get it!

[justoneoftwo]

10 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Jessa was EMS'd to the emergency room and required a blood transfusion (and did a repeat home birth some 15 months later)

Sam was in the Nicu for 2 weeks, purportedly.

And Josie...

These folks are going to need an actual death, and I still don't know if they'll fully get it!

They won't get it then.  I don't actually think anything will get through to them.

[Dandruff]

1 minute ago, justoneoftwo said:

They won't get it then.  I don't actually think anything will get through to them.

A death might make them more cautious but I'm not sure.  I think they want home births, pray for them, and then wait too long for the Lord to accommodate their wishes.  They're Duggars!  Jim Bob has claimed success by praying, flipping a coin three times, and looking for three heads = yes (to what he has prayed about).  IIRC, his family was eating rice three ways while he campaigned for public office...after getting his three heads.  Obviously, if you flip fair coins enough times you'll get three consecutive heads but I believe he was "trusting" that it was the Lord's will vs. taking responsibility for his family's hunger.  I don't think the daughters are literally flipping coins, but I do believe they're perceiving anything short of a disaster to be an OK by Jesus for them to give birth at home. 

[neurogirl]

3 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

I know Sam isn't 1 yet, I just think that Jessa is going to wait a long while.  Maybe its more hope than prediction, but she is the one I can see waiting for non medical reasons.  I also think Jill may have one sooner than we think, which would indicate to me that either 1. they didn't have time for fellowship in scary America, or 2. they were concerned a bout zika.  

It seems that Jill and Derick waited the almost exactly 18 months recommended after a C-section to conceive again. Coincidence or planned was always the question. I forget the recommendations for Zika though. Was it a risk during conception and in first trimester only? This is kind of a weird question but do we know where Sam was conceived? Were they in the states and then when she was safely pregnant they went back to SA? (Scary America lol)

[Ivycoveredtower]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

That is absolutely not true, unfortunately.  And legislators are very slow to change the laws in the states that allow child marriages.  My bolding:

http://www.unchainedatlast.org/child-marriage-shocking-statistics/

 

You obviously didn't read the article from the Guardian.  @Bethella's link may be wonky so let's try it again https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2018/feb/06/it-put-an-end-to-my-childhood-the-hidden-scandal-of-us-child-marriage: 

In case that doesn't work, some excerpts: And again, my bolding:

They did pass that law in Florida, but then amended it to allow pregnant girls to marry sooner.

It is a big problem.  That is why people like Vaughn Ohlman and his child marriage gigs went on so long - legally.  It was public outrage that shut his last one down, not legislation.  See:  https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/05/05/get-them-married-selling-virgin-daughters/

Back to the Guardian:

And this is in the 21st century.

Because unborn babies are more important than pregnant children.  Apparently.

Although the archaic laws actually directly affects her.

And this is the absolute truth.

reminds me of a polygamist man I saw on youtube he was marrying young girls divorcing the next girl so he could legally marry the next and on and on. except he was put in Jail when they realized child bride one was only 13 when she gave birth to her first baby making everything illegal.

 

yeah that was a real mind fuck to watch. 

23 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

A death might make them more cautious but I'm not sure.  I think they want home births, pray for them, and then wait too long for the Lord to accommodate their wishes.  They're Duggars!  Jim Bob has claimed success by praying, flipping a coin three times, and looking for three heads = yes (to what he has prayed about).  IIRC, his family was eating rice three ways while he campaigned for public office...after getting his three heads.  Obviously, if you flip fair coins enough times you'll get three consecutive heads but I believe he was "trusting" that it was the Lord's will vs. taking responsibility for his family's hunger.  I don't think the daughters are literally flipping coins, but I do believe they're perceiving anything short of a disaster to be an OK by Jesus for them to give birth at home. 

well I mean Michelle and Josie almost died and then Jubilee did die and Still Michelle was trying to get pregnant after all of that. 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, neurogirl said:

It seems that Jill and Derick waited the almost exactly 18 months recommended after a C-section to conceive again. Coincidence or planned was always the question. I forget the recommendations for Zika though. Was it a risk during conception and in first trimester only? This is kind of a weird question but do we know where Sam was conceived? Were they in the states and then when she was safely pregnant they went back to SA? (Scary America lol)

I believe they were in the states. They came home in early August of 2016 and would have conceived Sam sometime in mid-October (based off when he was born since we don’t know when he was due.) They then returned to SCA in mid-February, when Jill would have been around 4 months pregnant.

As for Zika, I was pregnant recently and was tested as a precaution since Zika became localized in our Honeymoon location around the end of our trip (we had no clue until I was already pregnant, but I didn’t have it thankfully.) The most serious complications seem to occur during the first trimester, but Zika can affect fetuses through the second and third trimester as well. I believe it can affect infants too, but I can’t remember if that’s accurate or not (so don’t quote me.) In the US, women hoping to become pregnant and their partners were advised to either avoid traveling to regions affected by Zika or take strict precautions if they did travel to those areas - such as using condoms if the woman was already pregnant, delaying pregnancy for X number of months after the travel occurs, or using bug spray with Deet and other preventative measures to prevent bites.

(Keep in mind, I was pregnant 2 years ago when Zika mania was in full swing. Recommendations may have changed since then.)

44 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

reminds me of a polygamist man I saw on youtube he was marrying young girls divorcing the next girl so he could legally marry the next and on and on. except he was put in Jail when they realized child bride one was only 13 when she gave birth to her first baby making everything illegal.

 

yeah that was a real mind fuck to watch. 

Was it Warren Jeffs? I’m hoping it was because at least that sick motherfucker is in prison now.

ETA: Regarding child marriage, I looked up my state just now. We only just banned marriages of people under 16 a year ago. Anyone who is 16 or 17 needs approval from a parent and a Probate Judge to get married. It’s better than nothing, but even that can still allow forced child marriages. Not every teenager is going to feel safe or capable of saying no or reaching out for help. I’d very much like to see that minimum age pushed up to 18 with no exceptions for 16 and 17 year olds, but I don’t know if politicians would be open to it after having just implemented the new restrictions a year ago. 

[finnlassie]

16 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Was it Warren Jeffs? I’m hoping it was because at least that sick motherfucker is in prison now.

He's been in a cell for a bit over a decade now IIRC. He still has almost total control over the community though, and afaik no one is allowed to have sex or get pregnant at this point. But there's probably plenty of discussion about FLDS and Warren Jeffs in the Polygamy section of FJ.

[Palimpsest]

18 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Was it Warren Jeffs? I’m hoping it was because at least that sick motherfucker is in prison now.

It could also have been one of the Kingston Clan, or any number of the others flying under the legal radar. 

And, yes, Warren Jeffs is still allegedly calling the shots from prison.  Sick.

[VelociRapture]

4 minutes ago, finnlassie said:

He's been in a cell for a bit over a decade now IIRC. He still has almost total control over the community though, and afaik no one is allowed to have sex or get pregnant at this point. But there's probably plenty of discussion about FLDS and Warren Jeffs in the Polygamy section of FJ.

Yes, I’m aware of that and I’m aware of the forum here as well. I’m just hoping it was an old video or something that @Ivycoveredtowerstumbled across somehow. 

2 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

It could also have been one of the Kingston Clan, or any number of the others flying under the legal radar. 

And, yes, Warren Jeffs is still allegedly calling the shots from prison.  Sick.

 Yes, I’ve watched “Escaping Polygamy,” which was my introduction to the Kingston Clan. They’re all kinds of messed up and that’s probably the understatement of the year.

[Ivycoveredtower]

27 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I believe they were in the states. They came home in early August of 2016 and would have conceived Sam sometime in mid-October (based off when he was born since we don’t know when he was due.) They then returned to SCA in mid-February, when Jill would have been around 4 months pregnant.

As for Zika, I was pregnant recently and was tested as a precaution since Zika became localized in our Honeymoon location around the end of our trip (we had no clue until I was already pregnant, but I didn’t have it thankfully.) The most serious complications seem to occur during the first trimester, but Zika can affect fetuses through the second and third trimester as well. I believe it can affect infants too, but I can’t remember if that’s accurate or not (so don’t quote me.) In the US, women hoping to become pregnant and their partners were advised to either avoid traveling to regions affected by Zika or take strict precautions if they did travel to those areas - such as using condoms if the woman was already pregnant, delaying pregnancy for X number of months after the travel occurs, or using bug spray with Deet and other preventative measures to prevent bites.

(Keep in mind, I was pregnant 2 years ago when Zika mania was in full swing. Recommendations may have changed since then.)

Was it Warren Jeffs? I’m hoping it was because at least that sick motherfucker is in prison now.

ETA: Regarding child marriage, I looked up my state just now. We only just banned marriages of people under 16 a year ago. Anyone who is 16 or 17 needs approval from a parent and a Probate Judge to get married. It’s better than nothing, but even that can still allow forced child marriages. Not every teenager is going to feel safe or capable of saying no or reaching out for help. I’d very much like to see that minimum age pushed up to 18 with no exceptions for 16 and 17 year olds, but I don’t know if politicians would be open to it after having just implemented the new restrictions a year ago. 

No it was this guy. 

 

[VelociRapture]

19 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

No it was this guy. 

 

For anyone curious, but not necessarily wanting to watch: I can’t watch right now (because it was distracting the toddler from Daniel Tiger), but I googled the title and it appears to be a documentary from 1999 about Thomas Arthur Green.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Green_(polygamist)

He was convicted on four counts of bigamy and one count of failing to pay child support on May 18, 2001 after a high profile trial. He was also convicted of child rape since one of his wives was only 14 when she gave birth to their first child. None of his wives testified against him, though one of them seems to have taken their children and left during his time in prison. He served six years in prison and was released in 2007. His sentence was five years for the first convictions and five to life for the second conviction, so his time served was within the amount he was sentenced to... but it’s still disgusting to me that he was released after such little time. I don’t care that none of his wives, including the one he was convicted of raping as a child, testified against him. He raped at least one child and he deserved far more than he ended up serving. If he were black he’d be dead or still in prison for far less offenses, but since he’s white it’s all cool. 

[nastyhobbitses]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Jessa was EMS'd to the emergency room and required a blood transfusion (and did a repeat home birth some 15 months later)

Sam was in the Nicu for 2 weeks, purportedly.

And Josie...

These folks are going to need an actual death, and I still don't know if they'll fully get it!

Women are fungible and disposable in fundie-world. Mom dying would mean little if anything. 

[Iamtheway]

8 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

For anyone curious, but not necessarily wanting to watch: I can’t watch right now (because it was distracting the toddler from Daniel Tiger)

Oh Daniel Tiger, the annoying little goody two shoes, how I miss him now when Miniway has discovered Shopkins and Grossary gang. Peppa, Masha, Ben and Holly please come back, all is forgiven!

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Iamtheway said:

Oh Daniel Tiger, the annoying little goody two shoes, how I miss him now when Miniway has discovered Shopkins and Grossary gang. Peppa, Masha, Ben and Holly please come back, all is forgiven!

 Not gonna lie, but I kind of love Daniel Tiger. My husband and I can’t stand Prince Wednesday though. He’s our least favorite character.

And for anyone needing a laugh, especially parents and caregivers familiar with DT, I present this phenomenal ranking of the characters:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/instafather/daniel-tigers-neighborhood-characters-ranked-1mg41?utm_term=.jo061nMxa#.jdrbJXQEV

[Bethella]

4 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I was talking about willing 16/17 year old marrying, not forced illegal child brides. Child brides are a crime and pretty much only accepted in cults and or sex trafficking here in the US. 

@allthegoodnamesrgone, @Palimpsest already responded with most of the arguments that I would have made. Regardless of whether they are forced marriages or coerced marriages or even consensual marriages, they are still on-going LEGAL child marriages in the US, at the rate of nearly 25,000 a year.

 

[seraaa]

18 hours ago, Bethella said:

Underage marriage may be frowned on in many circles in the US but it is far from uncommon. Between 2000 and 2010 almost 250,000 children were married in the US, some of them as young as 10. 

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2018/feb/06/it-put-an-end-to-my-childhood-the-hidden-scandal-of-us-child-marriage

good lord, I did not expect it to be that many. I know the US is a big country, so it scales up, but still.