Joy and Austin 18: 234 Days Since the Wedding and Counting

[CaricatureQualities]

This is one of the reasons parenting seems so exhausting to me (because raising children isn't tiring enough) and why I am always in awe of those who do it. There are so many hot button issues and so many different ways to do everything and opinions and judgments coming at parents and especially moms. A lot of times play dates and mom groups etc... that provide support and solidarity can also come with tension due to  the various options and opinions and ways of doing things. As a child free person with lots of friends who are parents I try to listen to a their individual take on things and learn about  how they parent.  Everyone does it differently. I never know where a conflict might be lurking around the corner about things I would have never thought would be an issue. It's all very fascinating.  I try to be supportive and positive. 

  If I find myself in a group of my friends who are all parents I totally go play with the kids anyway. 

[Daisy0322]

1 hour ago, victoriasponge said:

Hang on @Daisy0322 what extra curricular activities can a five month old do? Look cute? Gurgle? Play Mozart? 

Swim classes 

music classes

"baby bunnies" gymnastics is big where I live

story time

weekly play groups 

I shit you not baby ART CLASSES haha

mommy and me yoga

mommy and me dance classes

baby hiking or stroller work out groups 

Etc... once i got asked if I wanted to do a baby and me massage work shop haha

I do story time because it's free st the library and we go to the YMCA every now and then to swim but I'm a slacker compared to most moms I know. 

 

[Baxter]

I think all of these baby classes are really just a way for new moms to justify getting out of the house. I took my son when he was a baby to a music type class at the library. He did like it. But it was also nice for me because one of my friends has a son about the same age so we could visit a bit too. Also, it was free.  

As for breastfeeding, I didn't have any supply problems and my son got the hang of it right away. But if he hadn't or I had supply problems, then I would have absolutely considered formula because a well fed baby is a happy baby and that was my main concern. I know people who have formula fed or supplemented and their kids seem perfectly fine. There are definitely downsides to breastfeeding, like it's hard to get much time away from your baby if they refuse to take a bottle. But, on the flip side, breastfeeding means that you don't need to mess around with mixing formula and hauling bottles, etc with you wherever you go. I already hauled around so much baby stuff in my diaper bag when I went out, lol. So once I got the hang of it, it seemed like an easier option for me, especially in the middle of the night for feeding.

I should also mention that I live in Canada where I got a year of maternity leave. I couldn't even imagine the stress of trying to breastfeed and pump and having to go back to work at 8 or 12 weeks. That seems crazy to me.

[sta_sha]

@Mela99 Don’t stress, just enjoy your pregnancy. However you end up feeling LO will be the right way for you both. 

[melon]

1 hour ago, Nargus said:

I know a lot of people who take their 3-6 month old babies to swimming lessons.  

I took two of my three,around 3-4 months to "Mom-Tot" swimming lessons.My oldest went at 10 months.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

The ever increasing popularity of the WWW has never made me so happy to have had my children at the start of the WWW. I only got a fraction of mommy shaming  that I see now. I can't even imagine.

[Mela99]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

If I ever have a son, I'm going to have an elective C-section, name him Lemonjello, circumcise him, feed him only formula, not vaccinate him, and send him to daycare with peanut butter as a snack.

  Reveal hidden contents

Just kidding. 

 

I'm gonna be very disappointed if his middle name isn't Abcde or Shithead. 

[elliha]

I had trouble finding my "mom-tribe" or whatever you would call it. I breastfed and have breastfed for a long time with both kids, I co-slept for 15 months with my older kid and my younger is still mostly co-sleeping at soon 19 months. I plan on trying to get him into his own bed this summer at the very least but will probably not transfer him to his own room yet. I did a lot of baby wearing but also used a stroller. I started solids relatively early, tiny amounts at 4-5 months and more real portions at around 6 months. I believe in gentle discipline but I do raise my voice sometimes and don't feel bad about it if they have in fact done something wrong. Spanking is illegal in Sweden but I would not do that even if it was legal, it seems unfair that a big human hits a tiny human even if the tiny human is being a tiny little asshole. I bought clothes that were new and second hand and I have tried to have relatively gender neutral clothes and my son has worn dresses (dresses that look like long sweaters or t-shirts not with ruffles and lace). I am not too bothered by chemicals and only buy a couple of products organic but I try to buy products with as little crap in the form of fillers and preservatives. I vaccinate but do not give any extra vaccines (Sweden doesn't vaccinate against chicken pox for example so if you want that you have to pay). I am against CIO and circumcision is not done here if it is not a medical issue.

In short, I was too crunchy for the "regular" moms and too "regular" for the crunchy ones. I only have one mom friend and sadly she moved to another country a couple years ago. We are still in contact but it is of course never the same as meeting "live". 

[singsingsing]

6 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

I'm gonna be very disappointed if his middle name isn't Abcde or Shithead. 

And a sister named La-a.

[sabeek]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

If I ever have a son, I'm going to have an elective C-section, name him Lemonjello, circumcise him, feed him only formula, not vaccinate him, and send him to daycare with peanut butter as a snack.

  Hide contents

Just kidding. 

 

Baby wearing and cry it out, too, right?  

[bananabread]

1 hour ago, Screamapillar said:

Well, at least now I know that the reason why my toddler bit me and then smiled about it last night is because it's the beginning of a lifetime of emotional detachment from me because I fed her formula.

Oh my gosh. Demonize me all you want, but don't put words in my mouth. Formula clearly doesn't cause emotional detachment (or somehow deficient babies). However, allergies to formula can cause chronic pain and constant crying, which can certainly inhibit bonding. So can rashes, vomiting, and literally shitting blood. My future in-laws wanted six kids. After the year-long nightmare they experienced with my fiance, they never had another.

I'm not sure why my perspective is so infuriating/amusing to some of you. (I'm also not sure how calling my future in-laws either uncaring people or super caring people is at all relevant...?) Of course formula is a good thing. Of course babies who are on formula can have normal lives and be just as smart or healthy as anyone else. Of course formula saves lives. But no one ever talks about the fact that for some babies, tolerating formula or finding the right formula is a harrowing experience. And so many mothers don't take that into consideration when making their decision. If you cannot BF for whatever reason, there is always formula. If you try BF and it doesn't work, there is always formula. But if you never try BF, and realize after the second or third brand of formula that your child is not one of those that handles formula easily, then you can't go back and give BF a try. Your only option is formula roulette.

I'm 24, and I've seen a lot of my peers begin to have children, and I've seen several of them go through this. (Some are remorseful they didn't try BF, some eventually find a formula that works beautifully, some don't seem to care that their child is suffering at all. It's quite a spectrum.) And I'm not going to let political correctness stop me from sharing my perspective, or from trying to give future mothers all the available information.

NOW you can feel free to berate me some more.

[SapphireSlytherin]

12 minutes ago, sabeek said:

Baby wearing and cry it out, too, right?  

Be sure and de-claw your cats while you're at it.

[JermajestyDuggar]

@bananabread I'm curious. Do you have BEC for your future MIL? It might be making you biased on the topic. I have a lot of friends who don't have great relationships with their MILs. It's not uncommon. 

[bananabread]

1 minute ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

@bananabread I'm curious. Do you have BEC for your future MIL? It might be making you biased on the topic. I have a lot of friends who don't have great relationships with their MILs. It's not uncommon. 

I wouldn't say that. She has good traits: extremely nurturing parent overall, industrious, loves animals, generous to her friends and family. She also has bad traits: pressured my fiance to go into a "prestigious" career he didn't want, snaps at people often, has accused me of being successful academically just to purposefully make her son look bad (wtf?). I don't think she's evil. I don't love her. She's great with little kids but maybe less so with adults with their own ideas.

I think she genuinely feels bad about the whole first year of my fiance's life now, but I do personally feel that she made a selfish decision at the time.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 minute ago, bananabread said:

I think she genuinely feels bad about the whole first year of my fiance's life now, but I do personally feel that she made a selfish decision at the time.

Selfishness is a very interesting and complex topic once you have kids. I am often selfish for my own personal well being and mental health. Which then makes me a better parent. 

[Fascinated]

@bananabread, your MIL’s experience is not the norm though.  You say you have lots of friends going through the same ordeal and that some care that their child is suffering and some don’t.  Honestly, I find it hard to believe that any parent would dismiss these issues.  Your accounts are anecdotal so I will add my own.  I don’t know a single person who had the problems your MIL did.  Having a new baby and trying to feed it is stressful for most parents, though.  Breasts don’t have handy little measurements which makes it difficult to know how much the baby is getting. It’s a bit of a crapshoot. Which is why, I think, that some parents supplement breastfeeding with the odd formula feeding.

I think most new parents agree that they want to try breastfeeding.  It often isn’t successful.  It’s just not the big deal you are making it out to be, your fiance’s experience notwithstanding.

[Chippy]

I'm really new to posting here but I just wanted to add my two cents. (Hopefully I'm not too late to this drift.)  I am pregnant with my third and plan on mainly formula feeding but trying to pump to supplement. Why, you ask? It's because I tried so hard with my first two kids to exclusively breastfeed them. What happened? They weren't gaining weight like they should. Why? Not only did I not produce enough milk but I don't produce calorie dense milk. I could eat 5000 calories a day ( impossible for me but you get my point....) and it still came out like skim milk for them. (Yes, doctor and lactation consultant confirmed this.) Most people have no idea how satisfying it is to see your child actually seem content after having that first bottle of formula and actually having a full belly. My opinion? Fed is best. Don't shame anyone for either choice. You have no idea of their past, whether it be trouble with previous children or if they've had surgeries, etc. Fed babies are happy babies. 

[bananabread]

1 hour ago, Fascinated said:

@bananabread, your MIL’s experience is not the norm though.  You say you have lots of friends going through the same ordeal and that some care that their child is suffering and some don’t.  Honestly, I find it hard to believe that any parent would dismiss these issues. 

Something not being "the norm" doesn't mean it's any less valid or less worthy of inclusion in the conversation. And I wouldn't exactly call formula allergies a rare thing.

I'm glad you've had such a good experience with humanity. Unfortunately, there are many mothers who due to a variety of issues (age, education, home life, etc) are just not well-equipped to be parents. My mother was one of them. I'm originally from a poor urban area, and I have heard many exchanges to this effect:

"Omg you're lucky you have a good baby. My baby is such a brat, always crying. It never shuts up."

"Have you checked to make sure they aren't allergic to something in their clothing or food, or sick or something?"

".....????"

I'm sure this sounds unbelievable, but it happens. There are literally programs in poor areas of the US to teach parents not to hit their infants, because when the baby cries, it's not because it is trying to annoy you. The baby actually needs something, or is in pain and can't express it any other way. There are people who genuinely do not know that.

Anyway, this has gotten off-track. Just rest assured that a window into the lives of the people I grew up with can be a disturbing thing.

[HarleyQuinn]

@bananabread I'm not trying to be a dick but what bothered me about your initial post is that you said all women should at least try BF. No, no they shouldn't. Not if they're uncomfortable or on meds, etc. Also did your MIL talk extensively about the formula feeding? Are you sure she didn't try everything to find a good formula for him? As a formula feeding mom myself, my milk came in for quite literally 36 or so hours, then went away never to be seen again. Your MIL may not have been able to BF even if she wanted to.

I do get defensive when people hate on FF moms because mommy boards have traumatized me.

[Georgiana]

1 hour ago, bananabread said:

But no one ever talks about the fact that for some babies, tolerating formula or finding the right formula is a harrowing experience. And so many mothers don't take that into consideration when making their decision. If you cannot BF for whatever reason, there is always formula. If you try BF and it doesn't work, there is always formula. But if you never try BF, and realize after the second or third brand of formula that your child is not one of those that handles formula easily, then you can't go back and give BF a try. Your only option is formula roulette.

I'm 24, and I've seen a lot of my peers begin to have children, and I've seen several of them go through this. (Some are remorseful they didn't try BF, some eventually find a formula that works beautifully, some don't seem to care that their child is suffering at all. It's quite a spectrum.) And I'm not going to let political correctness stop me from sharing my perspective, or from trying to give future mothers all the available information.

NOW you can feel free to berate me some more.

No, see, people DO talk about this.  They are just able to talk about it WITHOUT JUDGING OTHER WOMEN.  THAT'S the issue.  

Why a woman chooses to breastfeed or not is LITERALLY NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, so you also have no business judging them because YOU CAN'T.  THE ONLY struggle with BF you will ever really be able to judge is YOUR OWN.  You will NEVER have all the facts that have lead another woman to make the decision she did, so you will NEVER be in a fair position to pass judgement on her.  To do so without all the facts shows an incredible amount of hubris, and frankly a few classist and ableist assumptions.  It's just a dick move.  No way around it.  

 If you insist that you are for some reason in a position to be the booby police, and we're going to have these sort of problems:

 

[bananabread]

1 minute ago, HarleyQuinn said:

@bananabread I'm not trying to be a dick but what bothered me about your initial post is that you said all women should at least try BF. No, no they shouldn't. Not if they're uncomfortable or on meds, etc. Also did your MIL talk extensively about the formula feeding? Are you sure she didn't try everything to find a good formula for him? As a formula feeding mom myself, my milk came in for quite literally 36 or so hours, then went away never to be seen again. Your MIL may not have been able to BF even if she wanted to.

I do get defensive when people hate on FF moms because mommy boards have traumatized me.

I personally find it strange when women never attempt to BF at all when they don't have any particular reason for doing so. Meds? Fine. BF isn't working for the child? Fine. Anxiety? Fine. Can't BF and keep your job? Fine. Horrible discomfort for the mother? Fine. That's what formula is for and it's a wonderful thing. You clearly did the right thing by your children, and I don't generally look down on moms who use formula at all.

I just really don't understand women who never attempt to BF because they have some vague notion of "I just don't want to feel like and cow and it's messy so no thanks." Especially since the formula route can be so difficult for some babies. It's odd to me that someone would sacrifice so much to bring a child into the world, yet not even attempt nature's feeding option, which is often (though not always) the easiest solution for the child.

My MiL's situation was this (I know of other similar cases): Never entertained BFing, wasn't interested, thought it would be a hassle or something. Baby isn't doing well on formula a few days later. Doc says, "Your baby is crying constantly because the formula disagrees with him. You could try BFing, some babies just don't do well on formula. Or we can try a bunch of random formulas to see what works." MiL says (essentially), "Ew, no BFing for me. I'm a professional women. I'm not a cow. Let's play formula roulette." Months of suffering later, they were still playing formula roulette. I have no doubt she genuinely wanted him to be comfortable and to thrive, but she wasn't willing to try the one thing that could have been a surefire solution. She was willing to do anything except the one thing that inconvenienced her. That's just unthinkable to me.

Clearly my point is just not going to resonate.

[louisa05]

7 hours ago, victoriasponge said:

I was trying to find an interview I remember where an American interviewer calls the black Brit he’s interviewing ‘African American’. The look on the interviewer’s face when the interviewee pointed out he, uh, wasn’t American anything was priceless. 

I could just see the cogs turning in his head trying to work out what he could acceptably say. Think it might have been the lovely young Star Wars chap he was interviewing, who mostly took it all in good humour. 

Anyway your comment reminded me of that. I always feel a bit iffy calling people African American... what if they’re not African? What if they’re not American? 

Years ago, I was teaching Cry, the Beloved Country to 10th graders (bad idea, the average 10th grader is not ready for that book). For anyone not familiar with it, it is set in South Africa and deals with race issues. Some well meaning white teenagers got terribly upset with the book and me because they felt the black characters should be referred to by both me and the author as "African-American". There were two girls who never really comprehended my explanation of why those characters were not African-American. 

[VelociRapture]

 

2 hours ago, bananabread said:

Oh my gosh. Demonize me all you want, but don't put words in my mouth. Formula clearly doesn't cause emotional detachment (or somehow deficient babies). However, allergies to formula can cause chronic pain and constant crying, which can certainly inhibit bonding. So can rashes, vomiting, and literally shitting blood. My future in-laws wanted six kids. After the year-long nightmare they experienced with my fiance, they never had another.

I'm not sure why my perspective is so infuriating/amusing to some of you. (I'm also not sure how calling my future in-laws either uncaring people or super caring people is at all relevant...?) Of course formula is a good thing. Of course babies who are on formula can have normal lives and be just as smart or healthy as anyone else. Of course formula saves lives. But no one ever talks about the fact that for some babies, tolerating formula or finding the right formula is a harrowing experience. And so many mothers don't take that into consideration when making their decision. If you cannot BF for whatever reason, there is always formula. If you try BF and it doesn't work, there is always formula. But if you never try BF, and realize after the second or third brand of formula that your child is not one of those that handles formula easily, then you can't go back and give BF a try. Your only option is formula roulette.

I'm 24, and I've seen a lot of my peers begin to have children, and I've seen several of them go through this. (Some are remorseful they didn't try BF, some eventually find a formula that works beautifully, some don't seem to care that their child is suffering at all. It's quite a spectrum.) And I'm not going to let political correctness stop me from sharing my perspective, or from trying to give future mothers all the available information.

NOW you can feel free to berate me some more.

Again, people mostly agree with what you’re saying. No one wants to see a child miserable and suffering because their parents are too militant about feeding them a specific way, no matter what method they choose. What we don’t agree with are the sweeping judgements and generalizations you made about every parent who chooses not to try breastfeeding because they don’t want to or find it gross. 

Basically:

Bringing up valid information and concerns about how some kids don’t react well to formula = you’re probably going to spark a good and productive conversation.

Claiming any Mom who refuses to even try breastfeeding is lazy and a bad parent because there’s a chance their kid may not take well to formula = you’re going to get blasted and for damn good reason.

You don’t understand why some women don’t want to even try breastfeeding? That’s fine. You don’t have to understand every choice another person makes. Calling them lazy and bad parents for making a perfectly valid parenting choice you don’t agree with or understand? Completely uncalled for. It’s honestly that simple. Had you avoided the judgement and generalizations this could have continued to be a really productive conversation and you could have actually helped educate people about your point - that some kids have trouble processing formula and there should be more support and resources that promote breastfeeding. Instead, we’re once again talking about how it’s 2018 and moms are still dealing with people judging them for every parenting decision they make. 

You obviously don’t have to listen to me when I say this next part (or any of this post), but I truly mean this genuinely: I think your feelings about your fiancé and MIL are very much coloring your perception here in a way that is completely unfair to the vast majority of moms who choose not to try breastfeeding. I honestly think it may be time for you to take a step away from this conversation. You’ve pissed people off. We have every right to be pissed off. If you honestly want a productive conversation then take a step back and reconsider how you’ve approached the subject so far. 

(And the conversation about formula allergies absolutely isn’t new to this site at all. I’ve mentioned my nephew’s allergy to his first formula before now and I’m sure other posters have shared their experiences as well. If you meant it’s not discussed enough in general society then that wasn’t clear.)

[Daisy0322]

44 minutes ago, bananabread said:

My mother was one of them. I'm originally from a poor urban area, and I have heard many exchanges to

Omg you're lucky you have a good baby. My baby is such a brat, always crying. It never shuts up."

"Have you checked to make sure they aren't allergic to something in their clothing or food, or sick or something?"

I actually am in one of the type of programs like that. I love it! I've learned a lot even though I've always loved kids and I've done a lot of parenting research and read a lot of books. I happen to have a snuggly baby boy. He's very sweet but he needs a little extra snuggles and he is a little more than vocal about it. People tell me all the time that I'm spoiling him or he's a difficult baby. Everyone has different emotional needs including babies in my opinion. While he needs extra cuddle time he has always been a great eater, always puts himself to sleep without even a tear, and will play by himself for quite awhile. As long as he gets plenty of physical affection he's a very happy boy. My husband also is very physically affectionate. I don't know why people expect babies to not be little people. But this is mostly coming from my family who gives their 3 year olds Mountain Dew in a baby bottle. *sigh* so I'm not too concerned about it. Long story short: I grew up in  similar environment

[louisa05]

19 minutes ago, bananabread said:

 

. I'm a professional women.

If she was a professional woman, then she was likely looking at going back to work relatively soon. You said this was in the 90s. 

You do understand that even in the 90s (as long as 28 years ago now, btw), breastfeeding was not always easily accommodated in the workplace, right? It isn't now, so what makes you think it was 25 years or so ago? Your MiL  also did not necessarily tell you the entire story or all of her reasoning. And it is quite possible that she feels that it is a) in the past and b ) not really your concern or your business. 

I was born premature in the early 70s. My mother attempted to breastfeed my older brother and didn't have enough milk and gave up so he would not be hungry. When I was born, her milk literally did not come in. She had no choice but to give me formula. And I probably had reflux as an infant. Back then, they didn't think babies got it, so it was never diagnosed. But I threw up constantly from birth well into the preschool years, when I had a variety of food intolerances. I also get terrible burning stomach aches and have for as long as I can remember (recently diagnosed as chronic gastritis). I was miserable a lot as a baby and young child. Somehow, in spite of all of that, I am very close to my mother and always have been. And I don't blame her for any of those issues. 

Just saying.