Joy and Austin 18: 234 Days Since the Wedding and Counting

[SilverBeach]

5 hours ago, BundleofJoy said:

As a person from a second world country, I prefer the name second/third world countries over developing nations. Developing nations sounds like it insinuates that these countries are underdeveloped and it reminds me of imperial times when my people were called savages that needed to be introduced to civilisation. Once again Western white people are telling us when we will be good enough to be considered developed, to be considered civilised. That's what it feels like to me. 

However, this is just my opinion. YMMV with other people from these countries. 

Black person here. I appreciate your opinion, but to me, developing nation is less pejorative than third world. Third world relegates a nation to permanent underclass status, developing does not. Nothing wrong with developing, it means striving in some ways but not comparatively lacking liked  being ranked third does. In any case, modern language has moved away from the use of third world as a descriptor and it reads kind of out of touch to use it. All nations are valuable and have unique cultures to be respected, in my opinion. Maybe no descriptor is necessary. No question though that some nations are richer and more powerful on the world stage, doesn't make them better. Many developing nations, such as Haiti, are poor due to colonialism anyway (the history of Haiti enrages me, btw).

I don't like the term African american, it's like saying north american american, a throw away term. People from individual countries on the African continent should be identified by their country  if they want. But as an American born slave descendant, I'm just fine with being black. We all have our preferences and our reason for having them, and thats okay.  

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, bananabread said:

My attitude towards BF vs no-BF is a little complicated. A lot of studies suggest that BF is better for babies, but BF is not always an option. If there's any doubt that the baby isn't getting enough nutrition, or the mama cannot tolerate BF for some reason, then formula offers a wonderful solution. I plan to BF one day, but will not hesitate to use formula if the need arises. My future mother-in-law never attempted BF and used exclusively formula in the early 90s. She said she "didn't want to deal with all that." My fiance spent the entire first year of his life in agony, crying constantly, because his stomach could not tolerate any formula they tried to give him. (I believe his lifelong anxiety and lack of any deep emotional attachment with his parents are due at least in part to this trauma in his formative years.) It amazes me that his mother was willing to spend $50k a year on private school, but not willing to even attempt BF when he was clearly suffering so much.

So I guess my feeling is that BF is preferable, and it irks me when mothers don't even attempt it, especially if their child has problems tolerating formula. But formula is of course a great alternative (and vastly preferable to an underfed baby or tortured mama!!).

Just want to be clear that I think your fiance’s suffering is horrible, but that doesn’t mean you get to make judgements about mothers who choose not to breastfeed without attempting to nurse first. Having nursed for three months, i can assure you that breastfeeding isn’t easy and for many moms it’s not going to be the right choice. It’s incredibly rude to judge them for making choices right for their families, a choice that has exactly no impact on you or your life.*

*The exception here being your fiancé of course. 

26 minutes ago, victoriasponge said:

@HarleyQuinn I know someone who had special formula because of their allergies, not sure what was in that or how long it’s been around for (or even what allergy it treats). Might be a solution for some. 

My nephew is allergic to the protein in milk, so he can’t even have lactose free stuff. His Pediatrician put him on a special formula he could safely eat and my sister cut out pretty much all dairy until she stopped nursing him at 6 months. I don’t remember the name, but it had to be delivered to their house and Insurance paid for it (thankfully because it was expensive.) 

[victoriasponge]

15 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

But as an American born slave descendant, I'm just fine with being black. We all have our preferences and our reason for having them, and thats okay.  

I was trying to find an interview I remember where an American interviewer calls the black Brit he’s interviewing ‘African American’. The look on the interviewer’s face when the interviewee pointed out he, uh, wasn’t American anything was priceless. 

I could just see the cogs turning in his head trying to work out what he could acceptably say. Think it might have been the lovely young Star Wars chap he was interviewing, who mostly took it all in good humour. 

Anyway your comment reminded me of that. I always feel a bit iffy calling people African American... what if they’re not African? What if they’re not American? 

[bananabread]

I thought I was pretty clear on my perspective, but I'll give it one more try:

Not breast feeding for some tangible reason, including physical issues, extreme anxiety, past trauma, baby allergies, persistent difficulties, etc etc = I completely understand that and am grateful that formula exists.

Not even bothering to try breast feeding despite the health benefits (even after it becomes clear in the child's first days of life that they are suffering from formula allergies) because of some nebulous reason (convenience?) = Not something I can understand at all. Babies are an inconvenience; if you aren't prepared to be inconvenienced, you probably should not be having a child.

My MiL did everything "right"; spend lots of time with the child, skin-to-skin, lots of typical bonding essentials. Turns out none of that works if the child is constantly screaming in pain. I think she just thought BF was unprofessional (working mom) or something and didn't want to be bothered with it. Her schedule allowed, but she wasn't interested. I'd like to say that she's the only person I've heard of who made that decision to the detriment of their child, but sadly it's very common. Moms will be on Facebook begging for suggestions on what formula to try next. Someone suggests BF? "Oh my boyfriend and I think it's gross so I didn't bother, lol." It's infuriating. Feed your fucking child. That's no less insane than women insisting on only breast feeding when their child is clearly starving to death. It's two sides of the same awful coin.

32 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

It’s incredibly rude to judge them for making choices right for their families, a choice that has exactly no impact on you or your life.*

And yet, we're on a website entirely devoted to judging fundies for how they choose to raise their families... Everyone judges everyone. To pretend otherwise is elitist and naive. Do I judge moms who torture their kids for their own convenience? Yeah, I do.

[victoriasponge]

5 minutes ago, bananabread said:

Feed your fucking child.

But they are... that’s why they’re asking for formula suggestions...

[singsingsing]

Forgive my ignorance, but if a woman chooses not a breastfeed, doesn't her milk supply dry up fairly quickly? So by the time a mother realized that her baby couldn't tolerate any brand of formula (if that were the case), wouldn't it be too late to start breastfeeding at that point?

[bananabread]

7 minutes ago, victoriasponge said:

But they are... that’s why they’re asking for formula suggestions...

If your child cannot tolerate formula, or your child is constantly being fed a revolving door of different formulas because none of them are working, and your child therefore cannot gain weight or live a relatively painless existence, I wouldn't call that feeding.

Many children have problems with formula. Many children also have problems with breast feeding. You have no way of knowing how your child will react until you try; if you bet on formula without even trying BF, and having no compelling reason not to try BF, your kid could be out of luck. And you could be in for 1+ years of constant screaming.

4 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Forgive my ignorance, but if a woman chooses not a breastfeed, doesn't her milk supply dry up fairly quickly? So by the time a mother realized that her baby couldn't tolerate any brand of formula (if that were the case), wouldn't it be too late to start breastfeeding at that point?

It's typically a week to 10 days, sometimes several weeks. In my fiance's case, it was clear there was a problem within the first few days of his life.

Anyway, isn't that an argument for trying Bf first if possible...? Because if your child can't handle formula and you don't realize it until it's too late, your kid is condemned to suffering? While formula is always an option if BF doesn't pan out?

[VelociRapture]

5 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Forgive my ignorance, but if a woman chooses not a breastfeed, doesn't her milk supply dry up fairly quickly? So by the time a mother realized that her baby couldn't tolerate any brand of formula (if that were the case), wouldn't it be too late to start breastfeeding at that point?

It may depend on the woman. I think it took around a week for mine to dry up once I stopped pumping and nursing. You can try to get your supply back, but it doesn’t always come back to the same extent. 

Some babies may show they’re having trouble with formula quickly, but others may not. My nephew was around two or three months old when they figured out he had a milk allergy. I would think a lot of moms would have trouble getting their supply back at that point. 

[victoriasponge]

14 minutes ago, bananabread said:

and having no compelling reason not to try BF,

But it’s not on you to decide someone else doesn’t have a compelling reason to not BF! 

I’m sorry that my random disgust at the idea of breastfeeding isn’t good enough for you. I’m sorry that me deciding I’ll try anyway makes me a better person in your eyes than other women who don’t try. 

And I’m sorry that your fiancé suffered so terribly from a mother who obviously didn’t have her child’s best interests at heart. But acting like that’s almost a guaranteed situation for most people who bottle feed or that people are going into it not wanting the best for their baby, in whatever capacity they’re able to give it is ridiculous.

You are not morally superior to them, assuming they aren’t abusing their children, which is what you described actually is, just because you’re so breastfeeding happy. Like yes, it’s healthy and can promote bonding. Yes there are reasons to try it. But you are not every other woman. You don’t have their life experience or their full story. So stop acting like you can judge someone, even if their reasons for not BF are as simple (and potentially lazy or whatever else you see it as) as ‘I don’t like it and won’t do it’.

edit: additionally depending on the allergy, breast milk would still have been bad for your fiancé. It is not always a solution. Don’t spread misinformation. 

[kachuu]

12 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

It may depend on the woman. I think it took around a week for mine to dry up once I stopped pumping and nursing. You can try to get your supply back, but it doesn’t always come back to the same extent. 

So when you decide to stop, do you just go cold turkey? Or do you lessen the amount of times you pump?

Either sounds uncomfortable/painful? 

[sabeek]

15 minutes ago, bananabread said:

...

Anyway, isn't that an argument for trying Bf first if possible...? Because if your child can't handle formula and you don't realize it until it's too late, your kid is condemned to suffering? While formula is always an option if BF doesn't pan out?

I don't think anyone's kid would be condemned to suffering. There are so many different types of formula now. My niece had issues with standard formula, so a doctor switched her to a different type that she thrived on. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

23 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Forgive my ignorance, but if a woman chooses not a breastfeed, doesn't her milk supply dry up fairly quickly? So by the time a mother realized that her baby couldn't tolerate any brand of formula (if that were the case), wouldn't it be too late to start breastfeeding at that point?

I honestly have no idea, I've had two kids and never had to deal with it. I've heard it hurts like hell and can take up to a week or more to get rid of. 

[VelociRapture]

 

56 minutes ago, bananabread said:

And yet, we're on a website entirely devoted to judging fundies for how they choose to raise their families... Everyone judges everyone. To pretend otherwise is elitist and naive. Do I judge moms who torture their kids for their own convenience? Yeah, I do.

There is a huge difference between judging a Mom for not wanting to breastfeed at all and judging a Mom (or a Dad) for choosing to raise a child in a fundamentalist patriarchal religious cult. If you don’t see the difference then I feel sorry for you.

ETA: In case you haven’t realized, people aren’t taking umbrage with you for calling out parents who are militantly committed to feeding their kid a certain way despite the child clearly suffering. None of us would agree that that’s ok because, as it’s been said multiple times in this thread, fed is best regardless of how you choose to do it. 

What pissed us off are the sweeping generalizations you made that any parent who opts not to at least try breastfeeding is somehow worthy of that same scorn and judgement, despite their child being perfectly healthy and happy. 

18 minutes ago, kachuu said:

So when you decide to stop, do you just go cold turkey? Or do you lessen the amount of times you pump?

Either sounds uncomfortable/painful? 

Usually it’s recommended that you stop gradually. For me, it was a bit uncomfortable, but it didn’t last too long. I also didn’t have to deal with mastitis or anything like that, so experiences will very much vary.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

38 minutes ago, bananabread said:

I thought I was pretty clear on my perspective, but I'll give it one more try:

Not breast feeding for some tangible reason, including physical issues, extreme anxiety, past trauma, baby allergies, persistent difficulties, etc etc = I completely understand that and am grateful that formula exists.

Not even bothering to try breast feeding despite the health benefits (even after it becomes clear in the child's first days of life that they are suffering from formula allergies) because of some nebulous reason (convenience?) = Not something I can understand at all. Babies are an inconvenience; if you aren't prepared to be inconvenienced, you probably should not be having a child.

My MiL did everything "right"; spend lots of time with the child, skin-to-skin, lots of typical bonding essentials. Turns out none of that works if the child is constantly screaming in pain. I think she just thought BF was unprofessional (working mom) or something and didn't want to be bothered with it. Her schedule allowed, but she wasn't interested. I'd like to say that she's the only person I've heard of who made that decision to the detriment of their child, but sadly it's very common. Moms will be on Facebook begging for suggestions on what formula to try next. Someone suggests BF? "Oh my boyfriend and I think it's gross so I didn't bother, lol." It's infuriating. Feed your fucking child. That's no less insane than women insisting on only breast feeding when their child is clearly starving to death. It's two sides of the same awful coin.

Says your MIL, my mother lives in deluded state that she was this perfect mother who did EVERYTHING for her family when in reality she couldn't be bothered most of the time.

And seriously WTF is it to you if a mom tries to BF or not?  Let me let you in on a little secrete, in cases like this the only proper answer is " you do you, and it will be the right choice" There is no but this or science that, it's mom feeding her child, and it is no ones business but moms (and dad, but mostly mom) since it is her boobs that are tied up for how ever long the baby needs them.

[bananabread]

14 minutes ago, victoriasponge said:

edit: additionally depending on the allergy, breast milk would still have been bad for your fiancé. It is not always a solution. Don’t spread misinformation. 

Did I say it was a guaranteed solution? No. I said no one even tried. (Doc said he had never seen reactions of that sort in BF babies, so take that as you will.) I think they tried 15 different formulas before they found one that sorta-worked...8 months of pain later.

Also, as an aside, it's entirely possible that I personally find BF to be gross/freaky/unappealing. It's also possible that I've decided to try that before anything else, because I don't want to put my children through the trial and error/discomfort of figuring out which formulas (if any) work well for them. Formula is a great thing, and it saves lives, but that doesn't mean it's a perfect substitute for BF or that it can't have devastating effects.

[Meggo]

This showed up as "hot" and I thought for SURE Joy had her baby....

 

[Georgiana]

8 minutes ago, bananabread said:

I thought I was pretty clear on my perspective, but I'll give it one more try:

Not breast feeding for some tangible reason, including physical issues, extreme anxiety, past trauma, baby allergies, persistent difficulties, etc etc = I completely understand that and am grateful that formula exists.

Not even bothering to try breast feeding despite the health benefits (even after it becomes clear in the child's first days of life that they are suffering from formula allergies) because of some nebulous reason (convenience?) = Not something I can understand at all. Babies are an inconvenience; if you aren't prepared to be inconvenienced, you probably should not be having a child.

My MiL did everything "right"; spend lots of time with the child, skin-to-skin, lots of typical bonding essentials. Turns out none of that works if the child is constantly screaming in pain. I think she just thought BF was unprofessional (working mom) or something and didn't want to be bothered with it. Her schedule allowed, but she wasn't interested. I'd like to say that she's the only person I've heard of who made that decision to the detriment of their child, but sadly it's very common. Moms will be on Facebook begging for suggestions on what formula to try next. Someone suggests BF? "Oh my boyfriend and I think it's gross so I didn't bother, lol." It's infuriating. Feed your fucking child. That's no less insane than women insisting on only breast feeding when their child is clearly starving to death. It's two sides of the same awful coin.

And yet, we're on a website entirely devoted to judging fundies for how they choose to raise their families... Everyone judges everyone. To pretend otherwise is elitist and naive. Do I judge moms who torture their kids for their own convenience? Yeah, I do.

Except that at the end of the day: why a woman does or does not breast feed is none of your business.  She doesn't have to measure up to your standards.  MAYBE she isn't breastfeeding because she needs to take medication that is incompatible with breast feeding.  Should she have to tell you that?  No.  That's her own private business.  If she wants to instead say she just didn't want to, she can and that is fine because the reason she isn't nursing is none of your business.  MAYBE she isn't breast feeding because the jobs she works make it very hard for her to assert her rights to pump (because she's afraid of getting fired), and because maternity leave in this country is shit, she needs to go back to work ASAP.   Again, she's allowed to say she just didn't want to.  MAYBE food is tight, and WIC provides formula stipends, but not necessarily additional food stipends for a breastfeeding mother to keep her milk up.  Maybe she wants to conceive again right away because she has a narrow window to do that (see: my aunt).  

Maybe her job is important to her and her sense of fulfillment, and being seen as professional is going to help her move up in her career, ultimately providing her child with a BETTER MOTHER.  Maybe the MINOR detriment of not being breast fed is going to be outweighed by the OVERWHELMING BENEFIT of being raised by a passionate and fulfilled woman.  

Or you know what, maybe she does find it gross.  I disagree, but I would NEVER FORCE A WOMAN TO DO SOMETHING SHE FINDS GROSS WITH HER OWN BODY.  Heck, maybe breast play is something both she and her partner really enjoy and it would be a big loss for them.  That is ALSO OK because moms are allowed to have needs and do things for themselves too.  In fact, they should.  Because it's HEALTHY.  

Healthy moms, healthy babies.  And forcing a woman to do ANYTHING with her body that she is not 100% on board to do is, in itself, inherently unhealthy, can lead to trauma, and may impact her ability to be the best mom she can be to her child.  

3 minutes ago, bananabread said:

Many children have problems with formula. Many children also have problems with breast feeding. You have no way of knowing how your child will react until you try; if you bet on formula without even trying BF, and having no compelling reason not to try BF, your kid could be out of luck. And you could be in for 1+ years of constant screaming.

Um, no.  What actually happens is that you continually go to the doctor until you find something that works for your kid.  Sometimes it's a prescription formula.  Sometimes, you have to get a lot of tests done until you find WHY the child cannot tolerate formula.  But eventually, you find something that works.

And 1+ years?  Come on.  A child can start on solids after a few months, and can get most of their nutrition via table food pretty early on.  If your child is struggling with formula or nursing, you are probably going to be encouraged to introduce food faster.  I know plenty of kids who were fussy newborns and then suddenly did a 180 after the introduction of baby cereal.  

4 minutes ago, bananabread said:

it can't have devastating effects.

You want to cite those "devastating" effects?  Because everything I have read suggests that the differences between breast and formula are rather minor, at most. 

[melon]

28 minutes ago, kachuu said:

So when you decide to stop, do you just go cold turkey? Or do you lessen the amount of times you pump?

Either sounds uncomfortable/painful? 

You gradually eliminate one feeding at a time.If you quit cold turkey,your breasts could become engorged,and yes,that is painful.

[sabeek]

17 minutes ago, bananabread said:

Did I say it was a guaranteed solution? No. I said no one even tried. (Doc said he had never seen reactions of that sort in BF babies, so take that as you will.) I think they tried 15 different formulas before they found one that sorta-worked...8 months of pain later.

Also, as an aside, it's entirely possible that I personally find BF to be gross/freaky/unappealing. It's also possible that I've decided to try that before anything else, because I don't want to put my children through the trial and error/discomfort of figuring out which formulas (if any) work well for them. Formula is a great thing, and it saves lives, but that doesn't mean it's a perfect substitute for BF or that it can't have devastating effects.

I'm not sure how old your fiance is, but I think it's worth noting how formula has changed since then. 

[VineHeart137]

17 minutes ago, Meggo said:

This showed up as "hot" and I thought for SURE Joy had her baby....

 

I thought she had maybe announced the sex or something.

Also, formula-fed mom who breastfed her own child for 18 months here- Just feed your kid, yo. Breast milk, formula, whatevs, as long as it ain't Nesquik you're good.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

Forgive my ignorance, but if a woman chooses not a breastfeed, doesn't her milk supply dry up fairly quickly? So by the time a mother realized that her baby couldn't tolerate any brand of formula (if that were the case), wouldn't it be too late to start breastfeeding at that point?

Basically. I've heard of people inducing it later but it took tons of work and supplements. And to be honest, there were even less options back in the day. So yeah, after the previous poster's mother realized he couldn't take any of the formulas, it was probably at least a month after birth and relactating would have been quite difficult.

30 minutes ago, bananabread said:

Did I say it was a guaranteed solution? No. I said no one even tried. (Doc said he had never seen reactions of that sort in BF babies, so take that as you will.) I think they tried 15 different formulas before they found one that sorta-worked...8 months of pain later.

It sounds like your mother in law went through a lot of stress and money to help her baby. She sounds like a caring parent. 

[Mela99]

Thought there was a birth going on but it's just thread drift.

Pregnant with my first and all the drama around breast feeding is scary as hell . . . . 

 

[freshlemonade]

I have breastfeed, pumped, and supplemented with formula.  My personal opinion is that barring any physical or mental health issues, a mother should at least attempt breastfeeding.  But that is my opinion meaning that it is what I decided for myself.  What other moms do is up to them.  Breastfeeding can be really hard.  Pumping at work is definitely hard.   Feed your baby however you'd like, but please please please don't shame a mom for feeding or pumping in public or at work!

[shock928]

On the breastfeeding thing:

when my first baby was born I hemorrhaged so badly I was very close to needing a hysterectomy. Unfortunately I had been a member of the natural birth community and unfortunately I had no pain relief whatsoever. I was in a birth center with midwives who had no clue what to do. She tried manually removing the shredded retained placenta twice. I was in shock, shaking and screaming in agony. An ambulance was called and I was rushed to the ER, they then manually tried to remove the rest. Long story short, I screamed for so long I had fluid in my lungs. I had to get a CT scan and dye in my veins. They told me  strictly, do NOT breastfeeding for 48 hours. Two days later I limped unto a lactation consultants office, told her the story and she treated me like I was a monster for Not breastfeeding yet. Just 48 hours before I literally thought I was going to die. I had 4 blood transfusions... And here  was this lady treating me like I was terrible. 

I left sobbing, I never gained enough breast milk after that. Probably due to the trauma my body endured. I still have nightmares about the pain and fear. I'm very lucky I didn't have a hysterectomy. When you feel death so close though- you realize none of these trivial things matter. I love my baby, and now my other babies, and no one has the right to judge me otherwise. I am thankful to be here.

i don't know when or why women began judging others on breastfeeding. I've even met pro choice women who are judgmental to formula moms. A mom is a mom. We carry a baby for 9 months sometimes through agonizing pain, then give birth sometimes through agonizing pain. And then suddenly when the baby Is born you aren't doing enough? Nope.

 

[singsingsing]

47 minutes ago, bananabread said:

Did I say it was a guaranteed solution? No. I said no one even tried. (Doc said he had never seen reactions of that sort in BF babies, so take that as you will.) I think they tried 15 different formulas before they found one that sorta-worked...8 months of pain later.

Also, as an aside, it's entirely possible that I personally find BF to be gross/freaky/unappealing. It's also possible that I've decided to try that before anything else, because I don't want to put my children through the trial and error/discomfort of figuring out which formulas (if any) work well for them. Formula is a great thing, and it saves lives, but that doesn't mean it's a perfect substitute for BF or that it can't have devastating effects.

You're saying she knew within the first week or ten days that formula was causing his issues - how do you know that? Did she tell you? How could she have known for sure? And certainly it would have been impossible for her to know at that point that no formula would agree with him. If her milk supply was already dried up (or in the process of drying up), wouldn't it make more sense, and seem to be more in the baby's favour, to keep trying different formulas? What was she supposed to do, attempt breastfeeding again after 1 month, 3 months, 6 months had passed...?

As for the argument that breastfeeding should always been attempted first so as to remove the risk of the baby suffering due to not being able to tolerate formula, the exact same argument could be applied against breastfeeding. Plenty of babies simply don't take to breastfeeding, and suffer enormously when their mothers attempt to exclusively breastfeed regardless (not to mention the suffering of the mothers). Some babies are allergic to milk. To remove the possibility of these babies suffering the devastating effects of ill-advised exclusive breastfeeding, shouldn't all babies just be started on formula, especially in this day and age when there are so many different varieties, including hypoallergenic formulas? (That is not my opinion, but it's where your logic leads you.)