Joy and Austin 18: 234 Days Since the Wedding and Counting

[AlwaysExcited]

7 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Care to elaborate? I have no idea what about the last sentence would have contradicted the overall point of my post. I'd like to clarify if possible.

WTF has GoT to do with breastfeeding? And why people who enjoy imperfect, but quite entertaining show are definitely assholes to boobs? 

[kachuu]

30 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

(snipped) .....and anybody who wants to start shit about it can go sit in syrup and let the bees get them. 

I've never heard this before but it is now my new favorite saying.

[Mela99]

Just now, kachuu said:

I've never heard this before but it is now my new favorite saying.

All hail Queen Linda Belcher.

 

[HermioneSparrow]

Geeze, some people here are seriously exhausting. I can't imagine debating with some of y'all in real life.. I would be out after two minutes. 

If you want to take your boob out, do it. If you don't, don't do it and close your damn eyes. 

 

[singsingsing]

15 minutes ago, AlwaysExcited said:

WTF has GoT to do with breastfeeding? And why people who enjoy imperfect, but quite entertaining show are definitely assholes to boobs? 

Wow, that's completely not what I was saying. Game of Thrones is full of nudity. I'm criticizing people who enjoy Game of Thrones (or any show like it) and yet also flip out over seeing the hint of a nursing mother's boob in public - not people who enjoy Game of Thrones in general! I'd be hating on like 3/4 of the population and most of my friends, and while I've personally never watched it I have absolutely nothing against it. 

So just so everyone's clear: I was using GoT as an example in reference to people's hypocrisy when it comes to viewing women's breasts. I wasn't randomly and inexplicably insulting GoT fans, or trying to say that people who judge women for breastfeeding in public are as bad at people who like GoT. Oh my God. I am so sorry. I thought the context would make what I was trying to say clear, but apparently not.  I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST PEOPLE WHO LIKE GAME OF THRONES. In fact, I think you all have excellent taste, as it's in large part inspired by one of my favourite historical eras!

[imokit]

@Melbelle You should come to the UK.  We have pubs (essentially breweries), some are seedy places all the time, some ban kids after a certain time, a lot have food and kids menus.  A lot of the country ones have play equipment.

Its a perfectly English thing to do on a nice weekend to go as a family to a nice country pub.  Mum & Dad sit with a beer in the beer garden, kids run around playing until the food comes.

But some are dodgy and kids shouldn't go into.

[manda b]

The whole breastfeeding debate reminds me of autism debates I have seen. Fed is best IMO. I was in the minority, the thought of breastfeeding never appealed to me. Does this make me selfish? So be it. My two girls are happy, healthy and loved in the end that's all that matters.

[Jana814]

I have a friend who never even tried to breastfeed her kids.  She just wasn't interested. She works in a hospital (the best in our area) and had access to anything she wanted to help (the best pump out there) but she knew it wasn't for her. 

[AlwaysExcited]

 

17 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I'm criticizing people who enjoy Game of Thrones (or any show like it) and yet also flip out over seeing the hint of a nursing mother's boob in public - not people who enjoy Game of Thrones in general!

Oh. Sorry! I misinterpreted that sentence, my bad. In this context the example makes perfect sense.

ETA: And, while we are talking about GoT, the chances are that women in Westeros are breastfeeding publicly, and nobody cares. Same goes to England in 1400s. 

[nausicaa]

2 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Sorry but if you kid is old enough to play independently on a play ground s/he is old enough to drink from a cup in public, I don't care what they do at home that is their business.  It is about maintaining and setting boundaries for your child, and kids need that. This was also more to the point of people who saw children walking up to mom and not even asking for a drink just taking one and walking away.  That isn't acceptable, even if the kid was drinking out of YOUR glass, you teach them to ask before taking something from someone don't you? Isn't this the same thing? 

... use her like a drinking fountain, others have and I find that to be unacceptable. The use as a drinking fountain, not extended breastfeeding.

I can't believe I'm chiming in on this thread, because breast versus bottle feeding and public breastfeeding are two issues I really don't have strong feelings on, however, you are really contradicting yourself here. Earlier you said,

Quote

My advice at baby showers when they want you to write something down or offer up words of wisdom is 'Don't let anyone shame you into doing something you don't want to, or shame you out of doing something you do. It is YOUR baby and YOU know best, because no ones knows your baby better than you do, not even the  so called experts.

I remember this quote because it struck me as empty rhetoric. (I like to test statements by taking them to their logical conclusion, and this doesn't really pass the test. By this logic, Louise Turpin knew best? And I also feel this sort of rhetoric can encourage anti-science parents to ignore professional medical input on serious health issues.)

So no one knows their baby/child better than the mother, yet in the post at top you are telling other mothers they need to maintain and set boundaries with their children at certain times and stating what is and isn't acceptable. It's kind of all over the place. 

[Beermeet]

18 minutes ago, imokit said:

@Melbelle You should come to the UK.  We have pubs (essentially breweries), some are seedy places all the time, some ban kids after a certain time, a lot have food and kids menus.  A lot of the country ones have play equipment.

Its a perfectly English thing to do on a nice weekend to go as a family to a nice country pub.  Mum & Dad sit with a beer in the beer garden, kids run around playing until the food comes.

But some are dodgy and kids shouldn't go into.

Yes!  It was like that in the US until the late 90's.  I think. I grew up like that. Us kids would get Shirley Temples and quarters for the video games.  Of course, most parents chose the pub wisley.  Like, not a biker bar!  Unless you were in fact a biker and that was life anyway.  Zero hate on the bikers, you just needed to be part of that life is all.  They are quite insular and protective of the kids.  My uncle was a biker and I was never so spoiled or felt safer around them.  Shoot, it was typical that other parents took us kids to a pub.  Fun for all and geez, it's not like  bad things happened.

I do get what @Melbelle is saying though.  Kids in Las Vegas drive me nuts.  Adult place.  Can't we have one damn area? 

[louisa05]

Actually,  I feel the opposite.   I think it is very healthy that boys/young men get to experience the fact of life that boobs feed babies.  Boobs are fun but breastfeeding is a normal part of life.  Hell, it is life.  They don't just get to play with a female body and know naught of what else we can do with our body.  And, not all guys are grossed out or traumatized by a baby breastfeeding.  They can handle it, they have primal instincts too.  Sheltering men from what happens after impregnating a woman does no one any good generally speaking.  I always found new fathers discovering how much they want their baby to latch on properly and feed absolutely amazing.  Instincts kick in.  All of the sudden, they talk about it in detail!  
ETA: not even just fathers!  Brothers, cousins, friends.....when they love a female who had a baby they love too, they care and don't get grossed out.  They get into supportive protective mode.  It's wonderful!  

We saw two of our aunts nurse babies many times as they had ten children younger than my brother ( nine younger than me) between them. No one was ever bothered by that. And neither used covers around family. But in this particular instance, my aunt was not nursing. She was sitting at the table with her two older brothers, two sisters-in-law and niece and nephew with one boob completely exposed. For about 3o minutes in which the child (age 4.5 not an infant) was no longer in the house.

I find it interesting that people find it socially acceptable to do that merely by virtue of having a child who nurses even when he is not within 50!yards of her. Does this mean a nursing mother can leave the baby at home and spend all her time topless? Yet I as a childless woman must continue to cover both boobs? And how long does the free boob card last? Can women who breastfed their babies use the card forever?

[SweetLaurel]

1 hour ago, Mela99 said:

Me, I absolutely want to breastfeed. But that's my choice. It's not right, wrong or indifferent. It's just mine to make. If Tiny Human feels slighted someday if I can't, I'll be happy to fund a nice therapist for him. 

Orrrrr  - a better idea - don't tell Tiny Human which you did.  Do you remember breast or bottle feeding?  I think they can handle not knowing.   It will be fine.  I have five kids.  Ask any of them.  They have no clue, never asked  and don't care. 

Man, I thought there was news - but nope.  When is this baby due?  

[Beermeet]

@louisa05. Say what now?  Maybe I didn't read back far enough.  Um, yeah.  That is weird.  I'm seriously confused.  Why would anyone do that?  Doesn't sound breastfeeding related...?

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

3 minutes ago, SweetLaurel said:

Man, I thought there was news - but nope.  When is this baby due?  

Not for another month.

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

We saw two of our aunts nurse babies many times as they had ten children younger than my brother ( nine younger than me) between them. No one was ever bothered by that. And neither used covers around family. But in this particular instance, my aunt was not nursing. She was sitting at the table with her two older brothers, two sisters-in-law and niece and nephew with one boob completely exposed. For about 3o minutes in which the child (age 4.5 not an infant) was no longer in the house.

I find it interesting that people find it socially acceptable to do that merely by virtue of having a child who nurses even when he is not within 50!yards of her. Does this mean a nursing mother can leave the baby at home and spend all her time topless? Yet I as a childless woman must continue to cover both boobs? And how long does the free boob card last? Can women who breastfed their babies use the card forever?

 

'The free boob card'? Are you for real right now? People are saying that women should be free to breastfeed in public and that everyone else needs to get over it if they're uncomfortable catching a glimpse of a bare boob when they're at Starbucks, and you're railing about this one very specific instance of a woman apparently randomly sitting with her boob exposed in front of her male relatives for half an hour. How often does that happen? What exactly does it have to do with mothers nursing their infants in public? And what terrible thing do you think would happen if a woman sat in public with her breasts exposed? No one's going to be traumatized. No one's going to burst into flames.

[Beermeet]

20 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

 

I remember this quote because it struck me as empty rhetoric. (I like to test statements by taking them to their logical conclusion, and this doesn't really pass the test. By this logic, Louise Turpin knew best? And I also feel this sort of rhetoric can encourage anti-science parents to ignore professional medical input on serious health issues.)

So no one knows their baby/child better than the mother, yet in the post at top you are telling other mothers they need to maintain and set boundaries with their children at certain times and stating what is and isn't acceptable. It's kind of all over the place. 

Makes sense to me.  That advice is NOT empty rhetoric.  It is a positive encouragement.   Please don't bring an extreme situation into this discussion.  Those were words of love to a new mom.  Words that are important to hear as she navigates motherhood and sorts through all the often unwanted judgemental advice given.  What advice would you give that does never ever include another awful scenario from a completely different person?  Like, no don't become a nurse because of that "angel of death" lady was a nurse.  

[louisa05]

31 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

@louisa05. Say what now?  Maybe I didn't read back far enough.  Um, yeah.  That is weird.  I'm seriously confused.  Why would anyone do that?  Doesn't sound breastfeeding related...?

Short recap--many years ago (child in question will be 30 this year) my aunt was still breastfeeding her 4.5 year old. One day at my grandmother's house, several of us adults were sitting around the dining room table (I think eating something in fact). The young kids were playing outside. Aunt's preschooler ran in the kitchen door, whipped mom's boob out of her shirt, got a brief drink and ran back outside. She left the boob hanging out fully exposed for the next half hour until she got up to go home. The kid never came back inside. 

I was told that since she was breastfeeding it was perfectly fine for her to sit there like that and that my dad (her older brother) and my brother (her then adult nephew) should have not felt a bit awkward (or recalled the incident as rather awkward which they both did/still do--heck, we all recall it as awkward) but instead should have taken the time to appreciate breastfeeding. The general implication (or outright statement) of that and several other posts being that sitting around with your breast hanging out is perfectly okay if you are a breastfeeding mother even if you are not then feeding, getting ready to feed or have just finished feeding.

Note that in my opinion if you are nursing the baby, please do so and please do not feel you must cover up. If you are arranging things to nurse the baby, do what you need to do. If the baby has unlatched and is finished and you need a minute or two to rearrange your clothing and the baby and what not, do what you have to do. But if the walking, talking child just stopped for a quick drink and left again, there is an outside possibility that you could put your clothing back in less than 30 minutes while sitting in the company of your brothers and other extended family without inhibiting your freedom or ability to nurse said child. 

This is also considered not an appalling story in my family but rather a funny one about my aunt who often was less than aware of everyone else's responses to anything and was quite the laissez-faire parent with everything. 

[ladybug15]

2 hours ago, Mela99 said:

My only other comment on the whole debate debacle is this:

You have NO idea what it may have taken a woman to conceive/stay pregnant. She may still be struggling with feeling like a failure or less than a woman because her body could not do what nature intended. From personal experience, let me assure you -- it is only going to make her feel 100x worse if you rag on her for making decisions for herself and her baby. 

Me, I absolutely want to breastfeed. But that's my choice. It's not right, wrong or indifferent. It's just mine to make. If Tiny Human feels slighted someday if I can't, I'll be happy to fund a nice therapist for him. 

And you know what, if it doesn't work out, that's not my fault or my son's fault and anybody who wants to start shit about it can go sit in syrup and let the bees get them. 

Mela,

that was me, struggled to have my twin boys, then was dissapointed but accepted the fact that I did not have the birth experience I wanted. What i really cared about was to exclusively breasfeed them. I had a mental breakdown when I had to supplement after the 1st month. Now I follow fed is best. So I hope it works out for you and you will not have to have my experience.

[Jeanny_525]

If some of you are this intense in real life and talk this much...omg

Joy please give birth already!

[treehugger]

I was/am a very crunchy, granola Mom. I can brew herbal concoctions like a 15th century witch. I had a completely drug-free delivery with my eldest (at a tiny hospital in a rural Alberta town) and extended (exclusively) breast-fed both my children. Guess what, some kids are just colicky and have sensitive stomachs.  My oldest screamed for the first 3 months of her life. We went to doctors, and since I was breastfeeding, I went on a very strict elimination diet. No eggs, no milk, no gluten. It helped somewhat (enough for me to keep it up until she stopped nursing), but it was hard, exhausting, and expensive. We were very privileged to be in the situation we were in when that happened. 

Babies can have allergies to breast milk as well as formula. And motherhood, while rewarding and wonderful, is also more demanding (physically, emotionally, etc...) than anything else I've ever done (and I used to work at a nursing home and a group home for people coming out of the psych hospital). 

I do believe that most moms are literally doing everything they can for their children and 99.9% of their choices - breastfeeding/formula, co-sleeping/crib, SAHM/working, babywearing/strollers, etcetera, etc - are none of my damn business. Everyone is doing the best they can in the circumstances they are in. And it is wonderful that there are choices and options. 

[Georgiana]

I think there is a HUGE difference between judging other people and simply acknowledging that there is a situation that makes you uncomfortable.  Situations that make me uncomfortable include excessive PDA, couples loudly arguing in public, people that don't respect my physical boundaries (space bubble of safety), people who strike up conversations with strangers, etc.  But just because I am uncomfortable does not mean I pass judgement on them.  It's just an issue with MY boundaries and comfort.

For example, I live in an area of the country (Seattle!) NOTORIOUS for people not talking to strangers.  I understand that in other areas of the country, it is more acceptable to strike up a conversation with a random person.  If you try to strike up a conversation with me, I won't think you're a bad or selfish person.  But I will remove myself from your presence ASAP.  Because I don't want to talk to you, and I am uncomfortable.  

Ditto to fights, PDA, etc.  You do you, but I'm going to do me, which means removing myself.  It's ALWAYS ok to make a choice to remove YOURSELF.  You are in control of your behavior and the situations you expose yourself to.  No one has an obligation to remain in a place where they feel uncomfortable.  The high bar comes when you are trying to force OTHER people to behave a certain way.  

Regarding extended nursing, I am not uncomfortable with it, even in public.  I AM uncomfortable with watching a toddler walking up to someone and pulling their shirt down because in my family, that is not appropriate behavior.  We're teaching my 18 month old niece now that it's not OK to lift up or pull down other people's clothes.  You need to ask (she's learning bodies, so she likes to see bellies).  I'm not going to say anything or even likely move, but I would feel uncomfortable in the moment.  And it's OK if another family has different boundaries than mine.  It's OK if they are comfortable with that behavior.  

It's also OK that I am not.  

[Beermeet]

@louisa05 Ok, I get it now.  Yes, agreed very uncomfortable situation.  I have to say strange even!  Unusual.   Me now ( as in not younger me) would definitely say something in a light hearted way.  " Um, aunt so and so, you gonna put that boob back or can I get some for my tea at least so I don't have to get up?"  Lol!  It would be an odd moment for sure and I'm glad all your family can look back and laugh. What else can you do with family?!  Makes life interesting for sure!

Side story: when I had my son ( first born) I breastfed and would retreat to a bedroom to do so if a family gathering was happening.   That was not so much modesty as I just needed a moment alone with my baby.  After all the attention and baby holding.  My introvert tendencies too.  One time, my MIL asked if she could come with me.  I said yes.  I felt she just wanted to be a part of it.  She only had boys herself and in the 70's breast was discouraged.   She wanted to see and kinda be a part of that intimate moment she missed out on and didn't have a blood daughter.  I really enjoyed bonding like that as "women of the family unit". Often, from then on she'd come with, always asked first, I always said yes.  That being said, going back out with my boobs out to sit at the table never occured to me!  I kinda wish I had the balls to do it as a social experiment now tho! 

[bananabread]

I just wanted to jump in and announce that I think women who breastfeed in public are gross and slutty. Please brutalize me.

JUST KIDDING!

I literally could not care less about public breastfeeding. For much of human history, naked breasts were everywhere. On art, out in public, in books, everywhere. Women being able to breastfeed their children whenever the need arises is important. I don't even care when women feed their 5-year-olds in public! As long as everyone involved is willing and not in distress, women can breastfeed on national tv 24/7 for all I care.

[Fascinated]

Ok.  It was my little airport story that may have further fanned the flames but I want to ask a serious question on this oh so touchy topic.  I, like most of you I think, believe women should be able to breastfeed whenever and wherever the need arises.  Do you all believe that discretion is not necessary, or desirable at least, in a public setting?  I don’t care if a nursing mother flashes her boobs - it is absolutely going to happen. It seems though that I do care, at least a little, if she stands there with her bare breasts on display while her toddler basically plays with them. Ugh. I know I sound like a dick and I really don’t want to be out of touch with reality. It made me a little uncomfortable and that bothered me.  Tell me if I’m wrong to have reacted negatively to that situation.  Although I guess some of you already have.