Joy and Austin 18: 234 Days Since the Wedding and Counting

[Beermeet]

I just remembered Mechelle Duggar nursing with a floatie of some sort around her complete with tent set up at an elementary school giving a talk ( reading a book? Character qualities?) like that was not simultaneously happening is the weirdest BF moment in history, to me.  Holy moly.  I'd rather my aunt be free boobing it at the Christmas table than that scene!  

[sta_sha]

@ladybug15 if you breast fed twins then I applaud you! I couldn’t and pumped for my boys for about 6 weeks. They are now exclusively formula fed. You’re awesome  

[Beermeet]

@Fascinated. I have to say I agree with you.  I suppose the difference is that we would keep our thoughts to ourselves regardless of personal opinion and discomfort.   What goes on in my head does not go out of my mouth very often.  

ETA: except talking on FJ about such things I mean.  Real life is what I'm referencing.   Because people actually say these opinions out loud it seems. Lots of stories. I've never seen it happen.  I've seen the dirty looks though.  

[bananabread]

4 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

Ugh. I know I sound like a dick and I really don’t want to be out of touch with reality. It made me a little uncomfortable and that bothered me.  Tell me if I’m wrong to have reacted negatively to that situation.  Although I guess some of you already have.

As a Libertarian by nature, my general rule is that unless I perceive that someone is being harmed, I care 0% about other people's choices. And I wouldn't feel anyone is being harmed in that scenario, so I personally wouldn't be bothered.

However, you shouldn't let people on the internet tell you what's right or "wrong;" only your own conscious can tell you that. Don't let people bully you out of your personal convictions if you feel strongly about something. There are very rarely black and white answers in this world. You have a right to feel uncomfortable about anything and everything, just as you have the right to change your mind (or not to) after hearing other perspectives.

[Georgiana]

9 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

Ok.  It was my little airport story that may have further fanned the flames but I want to ask a serious question on this oh so touchy topic.  I, like most of you I think, believe women should be able to breastfeed whenever and wherever the need arises.  Do you all believe that discretion is not necessary, or desirable at least, in a public setting?  I don’t care if a nursing mother flashes her boobs - it is absolutely going to happen. It seems though that I do care, at least a little, if she stands there with her bare breasts on display while her toddler basically plays with them. Ugh. I know I sound like a dick and I really don’t want to be out of touch with reality. It made me a little uncomfortable and that bothered me.  Tell me if I’m wrong to have reacted negatively to that situation.  Although I guess some of you already have. 

 

I would have removed myself, absolutely.  She is completely free to raise her child according to her personal boundaries, I respect that, but I don't need to watch it.  Like I said, we have different rules for toddler behavior in public in the circles where I was raised, and this would make me uncomfortable just like two people making out across from me would make me uncomfortable.  No judgement, people have different rules and that's wonderful.  Doesn't make them bad or inferior or any other type of person just because their boundaries are not mine. Doesn't make ME bad or inferior or out of touch just because my boundaries are not theirs.  

And hopefully, this is a non-issue because she doesn't CARE whether or not I want to watch.  If she does, well, that's a separate issue not tied to bf.

[melon]

Michelle used a "MyBreastFriend"...but I think it wasn't intended for standing?Also,if you nurse and feel like a glass of wine or beer,have it.This was years ago,but my great grandmother had complications with childbirth.She had a stroke after her first child.My grandmother was born in a hospital,in 1905.She used to joke that she was "modern".Her mother,a Southern Baptist,who didn't dance,play cards,smoke or drink,was told to drink beer so she could nurse the baby,my grandmother,and she did,for about 9 months.My grandmother also joked that she had a taste for beer ever since.Her mother drank one or two daily while nursing her.Probably the brewers yeast.I tried Brewers Yeast,once....I felt like I was full engorged...never did that again.

[Beermeet]

4 minutes ago, melon said:

Michelle used a "MyBreastFriend"...but I think it wasn't intended for standing?Also,if you nurse and feel like a glass of wine or beer,have it.This was years ago,but my great grandmother had complications with childbirth.She had a stroke after her first child.My grandmother was born in a hospital,in 1905.She used to joke that she was "modern".Her mother,a Southern Baptist,who didn't dance,play cards,smoke or drink,was told to drink beer so she could nurse the baby,my grandmother,and she did,for about 9 months.My grandmother also joked that she had a taste for beer ever since.Her mother drank one or two daily while nursing her.Probably the brewers yeast.I tried Brewers Yeast,once....I felt like I was full engorged...never did that again.

My doctor told me the same thing about the beer specifically.   One beer a day.  Helps milk production or the "let down" process, I forget.  That was 2003!  I was told, if I chose to, to drink the beer right after a feeding.  So, by the time baby fed again at least an hour went by.  Non- alcoholic beer was not recommended if I chose to do that.  And, I did because with baby #2, I wasn't making enough milk.  I used fenugreek tea and smelled like maple syrup from my armpits for months!  It helped and I learned the cheap maple syrup uses fenugreek for flavoring.   But, both the herb and beer came from my DR's advice on better milk production. Making babies is easy ( wink, wink), after?  All kinds of weird stuff!  Our ancestors have knowledge that stands up today.

[Blue jay]

26 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

Do you all believe that discretion is not necessary, or desirable at least, in a public setting?  I don’t care if a nursing mother flashes her boobs - it is absolutely going to happen. It seems though that I do care, at least a little, if she stands there with her bare breasts on display while her toddler basically plays with them. Ugh. I know I sound like a dick and I really don’t want to be out of touch with reality.

I think there is an important place for the woman that doesn’t care even a bit what people think and is completely out there with bfing. Someone has to be the one pushing the envelope so that others can follow. It used to be faux pas to even bf with a cover in someone else’s living room, now most people wouldn’t bat an eye at that (and most people are now okay with lots of more open/public bfing) . But someone had to be the first woman who said screw this, I’m just going to feed my baby here. And that woman cleared the way for other women to follow, and she probably suffered some judgment and social consequences as a result. I am grateful for that woman, because she has made my life way easier. I can bf in a restaurant because other women before me took a big risk and did it first.

I dont know if that answers your question directly, but I really appreciate that you asked the question. Thanks for to cool calm and collected engagement in the debate.

[Shadoewolf]

Maybe It's not a big deal in other countries but if you Google breastfeeding in public, there are several videos of women purposely filming who say they are expecting a confrontation. Then there's this...

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Mind you the woman she claims "shamed" her didn't say a word, or even complain to a manager. Just gave her a dirty look. She was looking to make a scene. Big difference between that and this

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A little courtesy from both sides goes a long way.

Ok so going back a page or two, what is the cutoff? 4? 5? 9? At what point does "It's Mom's body and her choice" turn into abuse?  Because Youngest is 9 and just cruising over 4 feet tall. Can almost guarantee you if an adult at school asked someone in his 4th grade class what they did when they were sad/scared and they said breastfeed (or put it into kid language for sake of the argument), CPS would be called. It's not a nutritional requirement and not developmentally appropriate at that point really. Where does the line fall?

The friend I had to call CPS on 2 years ago gave her kids nothing but sodas during the day and chocolate milk in bottles at night. 2 of the kids have absolutely horrible bottle rot. She was also using high doses of melatonin on her 2 and 6 year old. Friends of Hubby's did this too, drove him crazy!

[2manyKidzzz]

1 hour ago, melon said:

Michelle used a "MyBreastFriend"...but I think it wasn't intended for standing?Also,if you nurse and feel like a glass of wine or beer,have it.This was years ago,but my great grandmother had complications with childbirth.She had a stroke after her first child.My grandmother was born in a hospital,in 1905.She used to joke that she was "modern".Her mother,a Southern Baptist,who didn't dance,play cards,smoke or drink,was told to drink beer so she could nurse the baby,my grandmother,and she did,for about 9 months.My grandmother also joked that she had a taste for beer ever since.Her mother drank one or two daily while nursing her.Probably the brewers yeast.I tried Brewers Yeast,once....I felt like I was full engorged...never did that again.

I remember Meechelle using the breast friend standing on a float in a parade near Dollywood I believe it was. It was beyond silly. A flatbed standing up nursing nutty mom. 

[justoneoftwo]

48 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

 

Ok so going back a page or two, what is the cutoff? 4? 5? 9? At what point does "It's Mom's body and her choice" turn into abuse?  Because Youngest is 9 and just cruising over 4 feet tall. Can almost guarantee you if an adult at school asked someone in his 4th grade class what they did when they were sad/scared and they said breastfeed (or put it into kid language for sake of the argument), CPS would be called. It's not a nutritional requirement and not developmentally appropriate at that point really. Where does the line fall?

The friend I had to call CPS on 2 years ago gave her kids nothing but sodas during the day and chocolate milk in bottles at night. 2 of the kids have absolutely horrible bottle rot. She was also using high doses of melatonin on her 2 and 6 year old. Friends of Hubby's did this too, drove him crazy!

I can't imagine a 9 year old wanting to breastfeed.  For most kids they stop on their own at some point.  If you were making them continue when they didn't want to that would of course be abuse.  But if your kid at 5 still wants to some, I don't see how that is bad.  Its mostly emotional at that point, and they will grow out of it. 

[Fascinated]

I must be a masochist to keep inserting myself into this discussion, but I don’t agree that breastfeeding at 5 is ok.  Sometimes you have to create some boundaries for kids. There is no way a five-year-old is getting anything out of breastfeeding nutritionally.  But where is the cutoff line?  That’s ambiguous for sure. God. I hate this topic. 

[purjolok84]

We adopted The Waffle - so when we found out about his existence - he was three days old. He was early - so wasn't slated to come home for another few weeks (he was in the NICU for almost a month). We never really had a nursery.
Hubs is from a huge family that has a bajillion kids all around that age - so we cleared out our guest room and the next day, a crib showed up. Then a stroller and car seat. A pack and play. A few bags of clothes a day or so later, a baby bath tub...

To this day - almost 5 years later - we leave our car unlocked at family functions and find garbage bags full of clothes.

It was a lifesaver. Really. We were still woefully unprepared for the reality of a 5lb baby (like anyone is ever prepared for their very first night at home with their first kid) but that helped. I never did get to decorate a nursery though. We did have baby showers - but by that time- he'd already been home for a month or two.

We were spoiled. (and he is loved the world over)

Reading this makes me happy - sounds like he's going to be part of a great family!

[TheMustardCardigan]

So I don't have a dog in this fight, I don't have kids. But personally I think there's a difference between breastfeeding in a place because you really need to at that moment, and maybe it's not the most comfortable place for you to do it or the people around you, but sometimes things happen... And breastfeeding in an over-the-top fashion in a kind of ridiculous situation just to look for a confrontation. Would I ever partake in said confrontation? Definitely not. Would I judge in my own head? You bet. But if I keep my thoughts to myself they don't really impact anyone so I don't feel guilty about it. 

 

There are just people out there that do everything they do in life to look for a fight. They don't ever take steps to mitigate to avoid a confrontation, a scene, offense, etc. because they're looking for exactly that. I could see a person who lives their life this way using breastfeeding to get that attention/rise out of people just like they use every other interaction with others to do it.

[SilverBeach]

I remember Michelle expressing breast milk to be frozen and given to Josie during her extended hospitalization. If the doctor determines that a baby should have breast milk for clinical reasons, a mother can pump and bottle her milk if she doesn't want to breast feed, and if she doesn't want  to do that,  she can use breast milk banks (yes, there are such things).

My breasts were very sensitive and an important aspect of my sexuality. In no way did this interfere with my desire to breastfeed, as I fully embraced my breasts in whatever amazing capacity they were being used. But I understand that every woman is not me. And how other women fed their babies affected me not one bit and I had no opinion about it. I do wish all women were as comfortable with their breasts as I am, but that is a different discussion. Embracing our female bodies in this culture is hard.

This is a topic of doom that has been discussed several times on FJ, I think over in No Holds Barred?  I kind of cringe when I see it come up again.

[Shadoewolf]

I'm really sorry, but these are 5 and 6 year olds, and these pics border on disturbing in MY opinion. And if pics of these kids ever get out to say, classmates? Man, kids can be cruel! Trigger warning just in case!!

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[nausicaa]

4 hours ago, Beermeet said:

Makes sense to me.  That advice is NOT empty rhetoric.  It is a positive encouragement.   Please don't bring an extreme situation into this discussion.  Those were words of love to a new mom.  Words that are important to hear as she navigates motherhood and sorts through all the often unwanted judgemental advice given.  What advice would you give that does never ever include another awful scenario from a completely different person?  Like, no don't become a nurse because of that "angel of death" lady was a nurse.  

I only brought the extreme situation into the discussion to point out why I personally distrust statements that do not make sense when tried against a range of situations. Something like "There are going to be lots of people trying to tell you how to raise your child, and sometimes you're going to have to filter it out and trust your instincts" is advice that is more honest because of its nuance, imo.

Originally I let the statement pass, because I know people have good intentions when saying things like that, also I know I can be pedantic, and I do appreciate that new mothers face a litany of judgement and criticism even about the smallest things. But when the poster then went on less than an hour later to instruct other mothers to institute what the poster perceived to be correct boundaries within her own time frame, it showed the statement to be empty rhetoric because she contradicted her own advice, by virtue of its inflexibility. 

 

@Fascinated I'll join you in the masochist club. I was reading the back and forth for several pages with a sigh of relief like "Hey, it's an argument I'm not involved in! I can sit this one out!" Aaaand now here me and my big mouth are. 

[Fascinated]

25 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

 

My breasts were very sensitive and an important aspect of my sexuality. In no way did this interfere with my desire to breastfeed, as I fully embraced my breasts in whatever amazing capacity they were being used. 

@SilverBeach, you have shown me time and again that you are not afraid to voice what many may consider an unpopular opinion.  I admire that in you because I am a wimp and avoid confrontation in real life and here on FJ. But, I’ve got a bit of wine in me now (celebrating my husband’s birthday and whatnot) and you went there so...I shall steel myself for downvotes.

BUT, people always argue that breasts are for feeding infants. I agree. They are. But, that’s not all they are for.  They ARE sexual. K. This is weird, but they are tied into, um, stuff, yes?  Ugh.  You said it so much better. So, again, that has nothing to do with breastfeeding or not, but it’s a bit disingenuous to claim that that is ALL they are for.  

I fear I shall regret this post. 

[SilverBeach]

I too am a masochist (sigh).

[KnittingOwl]

9 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

YES!  I fall in that percentage of women who do not lactate. I nursed and pumped and nursed and pumped #2 for 4 weeks, at 1st she'd nurse for 40/45 minutes and swallow maybe twice, I would pump and get around 1/4 of an ounce out of each breast, this was nursing and pumping every 2 hours for 2 weeks and then pumping every 2 hours for 2 more, and never got more than 1/2 an ounce total after a pumping session, and I could pump and get 1/8 of an ounce total one days worth of pumping wouldn't get me enough for 1bottle, I returned the rented pump after 30 days (this was in 2000 & I couldn't afford the $60 a month for that and $$ for formula). Lactation consultants and a well meaning friend kept telling me it would come in. It was finally my pediatrician, who told me to quit torturing myself lots of moms can't nurse and lots more don't want to, that is why they have such good formula, gave me a couple different samples and some coupons and sent me on my way.

Same for me!  Bless DD's pediatrician who finally told me that it was ok and to stop beating myself up about it.  It was still hard to not breastfeed as I just assumed I could.  It definitely contributed to PPD.  The first night of not nursing, DH gave me a tiny bit of bourbon and told me to go to bed.  He did all of DD's feedings and diaper changes that night.  After that, we would just switch nights so that one of us would get a good night's sleep.

I later found research about moms with hypothyroidism before pregnancy.  About 20% will never produce milk.  I really wish the lactation consultants were more knowledgable and hadn't acted like I didn't try hard enough.  It really wasn't for lack of trying.

[shock928]

On a somewhat unrelated note, my MIL was pregnant in the 60s and smoked about a pack a day throughout four pregnancies. As she was delivering at the hospital she was lighting up as were the doctors I'm sure! Isn't it funny how times change?!

[HarleyQuinn]

52 minutes ago, Shadoewolf said:

I'm really sorry, but these are 5 and 6 year olds, and these pics border on disturbing in MY opinion. And if pics of these kids ever get out to say, classmates? Man, kids can be cruel! Trigger warning just in case!!

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I can't imagine having memories of being BF. Lawd.

[Beermeet]

@nausicaa. I get what you said and why now.  I didn't pick up the tie in to another poster part!  I skipped a bunch of ad nauseam posts.  

@Shadoewolf. Good Lawd!  Nope.  Nope. Annnnd Nope.  Those children are to old for a sippy cup nevermind the breast. They need to learn to cope with life sans boob. That is not healthy.  Lawdy, where's my fan?  Imma faint.

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

 

My breasts were very sensitive and an important aspect of my sexuality. In no way did this interfere with my desire to breastfeed, as I fully embraced my breasts in whatever amazing capacity they were being used. But I understand that every woman is not me. And how other women fed their babies affected me not one bit and I had no opinion about it. I do wish all women were as comfortable with their breasts as I am, but that is a different discussion. Embracing our female bodies in this culture is hard.

I agree 100%.  I love my breasts and they are a huge part of my sexuality.  When I was pregnant with my first I was bit scared to nurse; I wanted too but put no pressure on myself.  I technically knew that is what breasts are for but at the same time I was only used to liking how they looked on me and the pleasue I got from. Turns out I immediately took to BF and had zero worries in that department.   My big milky boobs worked just fine for both situations.  Thank goodness, whew!

[LittleGooseberryPie]

Okay, so I have been a lurker for years (so I feel like I already know you guys !) and this is the most unexpected reasons for me to come out of lurkdom buuuttt....

 

I was rewatching Joy's wedding episode because tbh I kinda zoned out the first time around and felt a bit out of the loop on her story and was shocked to see her using Ben Nye makeup. I was a face character at Walt Disney World and while we used our own base products, we could not stray from the provided Ben Nye products due to character integrity/how it photographed, I also used it while doing ballet so I'm just curious. Why would the Duggars be using performance grade makeup?? Really dumb question on the outside but it took me down a thought path of wondering if TLC provided it for it to show up on film. The lack of plot, reusing the same storylines when we know they have more interesting things going on behind the scenes, lack of care or presentation....so it just seems like an odd thing for TLC to actually care about enough to provide. 

Are there any other shots of the girls getting ready? Curious if this is a 'daily filming' routine or just for the wedding.

 

Totally a random tangent but I figured if anyone would understand, it was you guys, lol.