Dillards 49: Dull Dillards Dulling

[freedom_for_all]

@Jenn The Heathen Historical fiction is a great gateway into history IMHO. A lot of Catherine’s early life has been overshadowed by the divorce which is such a shame.

[patsymae]

I'm part Celtic and part French, raised Catholic, had two short, disastrous marriages, and have one son. So I guess I'm Mary, Queen of Scots. And this isn't going to end well.

[CorruptionInc.]

2 hours ago, pook said:

WTF does this even mean?

Knowledge is power for the first part, second part NFI.

[singsingsing]

There are way too many senior representatives of various competing royal dynasties here. I can tell you based on my expertise that this never ends well (that history degree was worth every penny, folks). Should we all just choose our methods of extinction now? Your options range from run-of-the-mill consumption, infection, childbirth complications, to plague or mysterious fevers, to death in battle or by beheading, to being drowned in a barrel of wine. Oh, or you could always just mysteriously disappear (I know a guy).

[Glasgowghirl]

1 hour ago, patsymae said:

I'm part Celtic and part French, raised Catholic, had two short, disastrous marriages, and have one son. So I guess I'm Mary, Queen of Scots. And this isn't going to end well.

Don't visit any English relatives, especially with the name Elizabeth. Don't marry anyone from the town Bothwell. Those mistakes cost Mary her life.

[Jenn The Heathen]

2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

There are way too many senior representatives of various competing royal dynasties here. I can tell you based on my expertise that this never ends well (that history degree was worth every penny, folks). Should we all just choose our methods of extinction now? Your options range from run-of-the-mill consumption, infection, childbirth complications, to plague or mysterious fevers, to death in battle or by beheading, to being drowned in a barrel of wine. Oh, or you could always just mysteriously disappear (I know a guy).

Drowned in a barrel  of wine.... legitimately the most bad ass way to execute someone.  Good old, Richard, never a dull moment.

ETA: Wouldn’t it be fantastic if the modern royals were as off the wall as their ancestors?  Harry decides he’s going to be king, offs Will and locks the kids in a tower?

[VelociRapture]

9 minutes ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

Drowned in a barrel  of wine.... legitimately the most bad ass way to execute someone.  Good old, Richard, never a dull moment.

ETA: Wouldn’t it be fantastic if the modern royals were as off the wall as their ancestors?  Harry decides he’s going to be king, offs Will and locks the kids in a tower?

That’s wasn’t Richard. That was his brother George, Duke of Clarence. George committed treason against their older brother, Edward IV, one too many times. Must have been a really awkward Christmas with the family that year.

ETA: I do agree it’s a pretty badass way to go though. But no to your last part! Don’t wish anything like that on those adorable little stinkers!!! 

(Apologies to our British posters for calling your future King and his sister “stinkers.”)

3 hours ago, patsymae said:

I'm part Celtic and part French, raised Catholic, had two short, disastrous marriages, and have one son. So I guess I'm Mary, Queen of Scots. And this isn't going to end well.

I’m dying!!!! This may just be my favorite post in the topic! 

[tabitha2]

12 minutes ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

Drowned in a barrel  of wine.... legitimately the most bad ass way to execute someone.  Good old, Richard, never a dull moment.

ETA: Wouldn’t it be fantastic if the modern royals were as off the wall as their ancestors?  Harry decides he’s going to be king, offs Will and locks the kids in a tower?

 

Victoria And  her prim Albert made sure their royal family would be dull, dutiful and totally proper  from them on to make people forget her insane grandpa and gluttonous reprobate uncles with their bastards and mistresses. Her heir Edward didn’t totally conform and she couldn’t stand him.

[SapphireSlytherin]

1 hour ago, Glasgowghirl said:

Don't visit any English relatives, especially with the name Elizabeth.

Hah! Next time my MIL asks why we didn't visit them on a trip to England, I'll tell you you said I couldn't. THANK YOU!!! lol

[Jenn The Heathen]

@VelociRaptureThanks for clarifying.  I was thinking Richard had George drowned in the barrel of wine.  It’s hard to keep them all straight sometimes and all the crazy stuff just gets credited to Richard.

[singsingsing]

29 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

That’s wasn’t Richard. That was his brother George, Duke of Clarence. George committed treason against their older brother, Edward IV, one too many times. Must have been a really awkward Christmas with the family that year.

It was George, but I'm pretty sure there were all kinds of rumours that Richard was the one (or one of the major parties) pushing Edward to have him executed. Richard was also personally implicated in the earlier murder of Henry VI. He was quite a busy guy.

George was seriously ridiculous, though. He didn't really give them much of a choice. Treason seemed to be his default mode of existence.

2 minutes ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

@VelociRaptureThanks for clarifying.  I was thinking Richard had George drowned in the barrel of wine.  It’s hard to keep them all straight sometimes and all the crazy stuff just gets credited to Richard.

See above. But it's always good to take rumours about Richard with a grain of salt because of later Tudor propaganda. On the other hand, most of these rumours existed during his lifetime, so... 

In the words of Kelly from The Office: "I know he didn't do it! ...........................he probably did it."

[pook]

4 hours ago, CorruptionInc. said:

Knowledge is power for the first part, second part NFI.

right?  I would think a "warm" understanding would make more sense.  I need to take a course in Fundie Christianese, FML

[freedom_for_all]

Speaking of good old Mary Stuart, the Schiller play is on in London right now. The leading actresses flip a coin each night to see who plays Mary and who plays Elizabeth. Debating on going but I’m so lazy.

[Someone Out There]

10 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

 

Victoria And  her prim Albert made sure their royal family would be dull, dutiful and totally proper  from them on to make people forget her insane grandpa and gluttonous reprobate uncles with their bastards and mistresses. Her heir Edward didn’t totally conform and she couldn’t stand him.

Victoria being prim and proper was part of a facade so that the family could maintain the monarchy.  From memory there were issues with the monarchy and respectibility when she first came to power.  England was also a republic briefly at some point I'm not sure if that was in the 19th century or not.  Victoria herself had a healthy sex life with Albert, and certainly sent explicit letters to her daughters after their marriages.

[singsingsing]

3 hours ago, Someone Out There said:

Victoria being prim and proper was part of a facade so that the family could maintain the monarchy.  From memory there were issues with the monarchy and respectibility when she first came to power.  England was also a republic briefly at some point I'm not sure if that was in the 19th century or not.  Victoria herself had a healthy sex life with Albert, and certainly sent explicit letters to her daughters after their marriages.

The republic experiment occurred in the 17th century. Good old Oliver Cromwell. 

[HereticHick]

20 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

From Cathy:

 

So Please-Fund-My-Jesus-School Derick now can afford to donate to college scholarships?

[Carm_88]

19 hours ago, patsymae said:

I'm part Celtic and part French, raised Catholic, had two short, disastrous marriages, and have one son. So I guess I'm Mary, Queen of Scots. And this isn't going to end well.

And stay away from me! As I am Elizabeth I!  Pardon me...I mean come closer, I'll help you! Of course! 

[libgirl2]

6 hours ago, Someone Out There said:

Victoria being prim and proper was part of a facade so that the family could maintain the monarchy.  From memory there were issues with the monarchy and respectibility when she first came to power.  England was also a republic briefly at some point I'm not sure if that was in the 19th century or not.  Victoria herself had a healthy sex life with Albert, and certainly sent explicit letters to her daughters after their marriages.

She really enjoyed the aspect of relations in a marriage, just not having babies so much. I remember her saying something to that effect. 

She was from the lusty house of Hanover after all. 

22 hours ago, freedom_for_all said:

I’m a Jewish woman with long light brown hair so I must be Mary Magdalene. 

Every time I see a picture in a museum that looks like me it’s Mary Magdalene, without fail.

Speaking of Catholic Early Modern Women, Catherine of Aragon was a bad ass. I can go on for days about how smart she was and how skillful she was diplomatically. She also had a firm belief in her daughters right to rule which was pretty radical in that day and age. Yes, her mother set a precedent for that belief by being the ruler of Castile but at the time no woman had every ruled England in her own right and bloody wars had been fought because of it. Henry VIIIs mother had a better claim to the throne than his father but she was only queen consort. The first ever ruling queen of England? Catherine’s daughter Mary. Current views on Mary’s rule are diverse. She did burn around 150 Protestants in her 5 year rule (someone correct me on those numbers if they are wrong). But look at the stats for the reigns of Henry, Edward, and Elizabeth and she doesn’t come out that bloody in the end. Some historians feel that the foundation set by Mary’s reign was fundamental for the reign of Elizabeth. 

There is a great quote by either Thomas More or Erasmus that if Catherine of Aragon was a man she would have been a great (or greatest) king. Which is something coming from either of those men.

I love Catherine and I always feel so bad for what Henry did to her. I honestly believe she was the only wife that truly loved and adored him. and I heard that quote somewhere too. Her mother was the fearless Isabella and her daughter was fearless too. When Henry had to ride of to war, he completely trusted her to "take over" in his absence. 

I always felt bad for Mary, but I am an Elizabeth I fan. I think Mary would have been happy with a good husband (instead of the jerk she got) and a bunch of children, no matter if she were queen or not. Elizabeth is different. I believe she wouldn't settle for that. 

[singsingsing]

Yup, Victoria was pretty clear about how much she loved her husband and loved their sex life, haha. Which I've always thought was so awesome. Unfortunately for her she didn't really enjoy the pregnancy/childbirth/babies side of things, and back then, especially if you were queen, well, you couldn't really separate the two. 

I just want to give a shout out to Henry VIII's older brother and Catherine's first husband Arthur who sadly died at the age of 15 and has been essentially reduced in the historical record to debates over the function, or lack thereof, of his genitals. Next time you're chatting about Henry and all of his wives and lovers, take a moment to raise a glass to Arthur Tudor, who would have been the first real life King Arthur had he lived.

[libgirl2]

21 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Yup, Victoria was pretty clear about how much she loved her husband and loved their sex life, haha. Which I've always thought was so awesome. Unfortunately for her she didn't really enjoy the pregnancy/childbirth/babies side of things, and back then, especially if you were queen, well, you couldn't really separate the two. 

I just want to give a shout out to Henry VIII's older brother and Catherine's first husband Arthur who sadly died at the age of 15 and has been essentially reduced in the historical record to debates over the function, or lack thereof, of his genitals. Next time you're chatting about Henry and all of his wives and lovers, take a moment to raise a glass to Arthur Tudor, who would have been the first real life King Arthur had he lived.

Imagine how the world would have been different if he had lived. 

[Georgiana]

Victoria was an interesting figure.  While I like her well enough in terms of historical figures, she was an INSANELY needy mother and person.  She FULLY expected her daughters to primarily be attentive to her and her needs...even after moving away to foreign courts and starting their own families!  Or rather, I should say IF they moved away...she attempted to prevent one of her daughters from ever getting married in order to keep her around as a companion, and only consented on the condition that "Baby" (the Princess Beatrice) and her husband reside in Victoria's court.  If you did manage to move away AND could somehow avoid her frequent request-orders to visit her for extended periods, she was an incredibly prolific correspondent who expected her frequent letters to be responded to immediately.  She was exhausting for many of her daughters, and they often struggled to disentangle their lives from hers.    

Don't kill me, but as a mother, Victoria reminds me of Jill Rodrigues.  

This is understandable as her childhood with her own mother was dysfunctional.  She had a LOT of emotional needs that she needed OTHERS to attend to, and while Albert was alive he was seemingly able to do so successfully.  But once he died, everything kind of fell apart for her.  Of course, what else was she going to do?  It's not like she could have gone to therapy or addressed how the issues with her own mother created emotional deficits in her as an adult.  That knowledge wasn't available for her.  She just did the best she could.

But if you read her letters from the perspective of her daughters, you can see the significant burden she presented to them.  

[Jenn The Heathen]

51 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I just want to give a shout out to Henry VIII's older brother and Catherine's first husband Arthur who sadly died at the age of 15 and has been essentially reduced in the historical record to debates over the function, or lack thereof, of his genitals. Next time you're chatting about Henry and all of his wives and lovers, take a moment to raise a glass to Arthur Tudor, who would have been the first real life King Arthur had he lived.

I seriously wonder sometimes how different England would have been/would be today had Arthur lived.  The separation from the Catholic Church, heirs to the throne and their heirs, etc.  History would have been totally changed.

[Carm_88]

27 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

 Don't kill me, but as a mother, Victoria reminds me of Jill Rodrigues.  

She's suffocating! Letters every single day between her and Victoria, always getting her feelings hurt with her other daughters. "POOR Leopold" was the refrain much like "Poor Amy Foster!" 

Beatrice and Helena (Lechen) had it the worst, Beatrice was completely on call. I wish she hadn't revised Queen Victoria's diaries. I wonder what the non-edited versions said! 

30 minutes ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

I seriously wonder sometimes how different England would have been/would be today had Arthur lived.  The separation from the Catholic Church, heirs to the throne and their heirs, etc.  History would have been totally changed.

Or if Henry and Catherine's sons who died lived to adulthood. Henry definitely wouldn't have been as nutty! 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

Imagine how the world would have been different if he had lived. 

This reminds me of that game Amy and Sheldon played on The Big Bang Theory once. It had questions like, “In a world where Giant Beavers rule mankind, what dessert would never have been invented?”

Correct answer: The Danish because (obviously) the dams built would flood Copenhagen and the people there would be too depressed to create the Danish. 

[justoneoftwo]

I don't know, I think there still would have been a separation from the church, if only a bit later.  There was so much land and money to take there and the court was in debt (with Arther it might not have been though).  At some point they would have done it anyway...