Jinger 29: New House and New Wardrobe

[feministxtian]

2 hours ago, Beermeet said:

 

ETA:  my Jewish Dr. and I were chatting about the BC I was on years ago, I mentioned I felt guilty and wasn't supposed to be on it or having sex.  He asked if I was Catholic,  I was like yes, how'd you guess?  Reply:  the Jews invented guilt but the Catholics perfected it.  LOL!

And Latinos raised it to an art form. I'm very good at guilt. 

[bella8050]

My mom was raised Catholic but was more non denominational by the time I was born. She has been going to a small Catholic church near her the last few years that she likes. She sent me to Catholic school because she worked for the public school district I would have been in and there were many problems education wise but also with fights breaking out. There were some things I liked about the school, in my first few years, but sadly it was filled by too many teachers that had no business being educators. Constantly being yelled at, way too strict, and as I can see know a messed up way of approaching confession. As far as I can remember we were expected to confess something, and when it was asked if we could use the more private area with the screen instead of going into the room with the priest we were given a definitive no.  Abuse wan't even something in my mind then but sitting with a stranger was still uncomfortable. Luckily I think we only did that once a month. I'm glad to hear things have changed since then.

We had two sex abuse scandals while I was at the school, neither involving priests, though I am wondering now if that was only because since those cases were outside of the churchs control that they became public. Myself and about 10'others left after 6th grade for a public middle school. 10 out of 60 in our class. Not such a great look for the school.  I felt so much happier and free in public school. Though my education suffered a bit for it.  I ended up going back there to take classes for Confirmation, it was good in a way to go back two years later and not be made to feel like crap that time, helped put some things to rest.

[HarryPotterFan]

3 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

It's super hard to do that.  I have the hardest time at work, because its inappropriate to bring religion into work, but how else do you do it?  Also really struggled with a stalker I once had, do I contact him to atone?  (I didn't, I think G-d understands) 

I can't imagine doing that at work, especially with my office mate - who is condescending to me and had an attitude about another coworker (who no longer works there) who had religious accommodations (Orthodox Jew, accommodations around the Sabbath).

I really should try this year with family and friends.

And I agree with the poster who said there is no need to ask for forgiveness from a stalker!

[cascarones]

@justoneoftwo

I'm completely with you here. My stalker just committed a violent act of crime against a woman and I got notified. I can't even imagine attempting to contact that person.  I didn't even know the person on any sort of personal level and I'm still freaked out thousands of miles away, but the restraining order dictates I needed to notify my place of work/school/employment etc.

What would I even say to my stalker? I'm sorry I lived in your building and was tempting? It's my fault you abused your power as super and put a recording device in my apartment, then blamed it all on me when you lost your job and place to live? HR was fantastic in helping me through the process and guiding conversations with my team.

I feel more guilt about the woman who got assaulted. I'm sorry I failed you, I'm sorry I didn't push for more on a legal perspective. I'm sorry that when it was laid out to me what they found in his apartment would take a long time to process, would be explained away by his lawyers as laundry I could have dropped in the foyer. That he, as super, was responsible for cleaning up and had a right to enter my apartment without notice.  

I'm sorry we happened to have his preferred look, that he was casual enough that we were both oblivious. 

This is why I don't snark on the Duggar girls lawsuit, why I try to at least keep even an even keel on the girls. Finding out things were going on without your knowledge (asleep or otherwise) isn't pleasant and shakes your worldview. 

 

[Snarkle Motion]

7 hours ago, louisa05 said:

And we had some horrible kids in the Catholic school I taught in, too. But I'm not sure that it is fair to conclude that Catholicism made them horrible. If so, I would have to say that all public schools are dens of endless bullying as I was bullied not only by students but by teachers and other staff members as a child in public school. Somehow, as an adult, it has been clear to me that they were bad people rather than it being a public school being the reason for their behavior. The public schools I work in do their best to provide their students with a safe environment to learn in as did the Catholic school system I attended for the latter half of my education. The fact that one of the public schools I attended did not and that the Catholic school I worked in did not is not a reflection on all Catholic or public schools. 

See how that works? 

In the neighborhood I grew up in, the "bad" kids (e.g. druggies and sexually promiscuous) would often start in public school and be sent to catholic school after getting in trouble. It was kind of a joke because this basically just put a bunch of promiscuous drug users together to meet others like them.

Clearly not everyone at the school was like this, but it was funny to me because the idea was that catholic would straighten them out and in reality they just ended up hanging out together at a different school.

[KeshetParparNesicha]

Best way to ask forgiveness without making it religious is to do it naturally, IMO. Get a coffee and tell them you want to clear the air and apologize. Don't corner people at the water cooler and inform them "It's my holiday so I have to tell everyone I'm sorry."

Of course, doing it naturally means you have to wait for a natural moment, which doesn't always coincide with Elul, so...

[CarrotCake]

I'm Catholic but never had to say confession. I don't think anyone does anymore here in the Netherlands. Most churches don't even have a confessional.

[SuperNova]

Quite an interesting thread drift. I grew up catholic as well. My first confession was awful and I ended up crying. It took place in a small room with just the priest and I. I had a highly abusive father who punished for small transgressions or even none at all, so being alone in a room with a man that I had to tell my "sins" to was abuse in itself. I also knew that my confession alone was a sin because I wasn't really sorry about a damn thing.

I grew up to be an atheist. Not for that reason but it didn't do much to add a positive light to religion for me personally. I do not extend my beliefs to anyone else's experience.

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

Random thread drift musings:

I wonder if there are vegetarian/vegan Catholics who have confessed to being an accomplice to murder because they ate meat.

Also, what is the protocol if an actual murderer confesses his crimes to a priest. Is it just another case of "say 10 Hail Maries, 20 Our Fathers, and all will be forgiven," or are priests legally obligated to report it? Are priests governed under any confidentiality agreements with regards to what they hear in confessionals?

[Fundie Bunny]

4 hours ago, VeryNikeSeamstress said:

Are priests governed under any confidentiality agreements with regards to what they hear in confessionals?

They can't say anything, and they are not legally obligated to say a word, but I guess that they would say that to be in peace with god they have to be in peace with Men, and if they don't turn themselves in, it would mean their repentance is not genuine

[louisa05]

Also, what is the protocol if an actual murderer confesses his crimes to a priest. Is it just another case of "say 10 Hail Maries, 20 Our Fathers, and all will be forgiven," or are priests legally obligated to report it? Are priests governed under any confidentiality agreements with regards to what they hear in confessionals?

Priests are bound by what is called the seal of confession to never reveal what is told to them there and are not allowed to even discuss it with the person outside of confession.

This is a question our middle schoolers always come up with on the Q&A with the priest night. Some have said that if they have a relationship with a person who confesses something that needs followed up on they may ask the person to come discuss it with them outside confession or they may urge them to see another priest, counselor, turn themselves in, etc....If the matter affects others, they may tell them what they should do to make amends and/ or make that part of their penance.

But if the person doesn't do those things the priest cannot do anything.

Someone earlier in the discussion alluded to a priest addressing something they confessed at another time. That is a serious breech of ethics and church law by the priest.

[cascarones]

Jinger, is this you? Leaving a restrictive religion, cabinet rifling, parents not stepping back. http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/askamy/ct-ask-amy-ae-0827-20170827-story.html

Nope, but it makes me feel for the difficulties faced by anyone leaving a restrictive religion. Yet my first thought was someone is privately loosening the chains.

 

[SapphireSlytherin]

I have a tendency to fret over things I've said that may have offended.

Example:  About ten years ago, I was part of a huge group of people who were sitting around a hotel pool (it was a national "gathering" of car people). One of the wives mentioned that when she was dating her now-husband, that she knew he was "the one" when he took her son out of his wheelchair, plopped him on a creeper, and rolled him under the car to help work on the vehicle. (Yes, every proper safety measure was in place.)

Although I knew her husband fairly well, I didn't know her or her story. So I blurted out, "What's wrong with your son?" She didn't blanch or flinch, and just said he had cerebral palsy. And the night continued, and we all had fun.

But when I got to our hotel room, I started fretting over my choice of words. Saying something was WRONG. Oh, how I fretted and stewed and regretted and lamented my choice. And I let it FESTER for years. Two years ago, I finally got up the nerve to apologize for my choice of words, and I told her I never should have said "what's wrong" and instead should have asked "why is he in a wheelchair?" She actually LAUGHED. She said she's heard the "what's wrong" question so many times that it doesn't even faze her anymore. But she thanked me and said she felt bad for ME, that I'd let it bother me for so long.

Anyway - I'm glad I apologized, and I've let it be a lesson to THINK how to word a question/statement before I open my mouth.

TL;DR:  I apologized and I feel better.

[nausicaa]

@SapphireSlytherin You're not alone. I remember every time I put my foot in my mouth going back to fifth grade. And whenever I can't sleep, I get to go over all of them in my head on a cycle. Fun times. 

[justoneoftwo]

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 8:54 PM, cascarones said:

@justoneoftwo

I'm completely with you here. My stalker just committed a violent act of crime against a woman and I got notified. I can't even imagine attempting to contact that person.  I didn't even know the person on any sort of personal level and I'm still freaked out thousands of miles away, but the restraining order dictates I needed to notify my place of work/school/employment etc.

I'm so sorry your going through that.  Remember its not your fault. I know its not very helpful for a stranger on the internet to say but still, its not your fault he chose to take actions against another.  I hope your doing okay and can move on as much as possible.  Try not to take on the guilt for his actions against her. 

[Jana814]

2 hours ago, nausicaa said:

@SapphireSlytherin You're not alone. I remember every time I put my foot in my mouth going back to fifth grade. And whenever I can't sleep, I get to go over all of them in my head on a cycle. Fun times. 

I do that too. It's horrible. 

[FundieCentral]

Count me in on those who grew up catholic and went around the religious block. 

I only went to confession once, before our first communion. I didn't really feel like I had anything to confess, so I kind of pulled something out of my nose about fighting with my sister and such. 

Honestly, I found evangelical Christianity a lot worse on the guilt part. Because every single thing in your life (dress choice, favorite music, hairstyle, bible version, friend circle, free time activity etc) is interpreted as a manifestation of holiness, there is this INSANE pressure to be little miss perfect. In Catholicism, I always had a two step fix: pray about it, and if I can't deal with it then go to confession. And I never even got to the confession part because usually I admitted my wrongdoings in prayer and was able to figure out how to make amends from there. 

But the guilt and the paranoia about having every single aspect of your life scrutinized for "godliness" in a cult-like manner still sits with me. And I'm trying to figure out whether to go back to Catholicism because it now seems less sectarian, more intellectual, and less dangerous. 

[louisa05]

53 minutes ago, FundieCentral said:

Honestly, I found evangelical Christianity a lot worse on the guilt part. Because every single thing in your life (dress choice, favorite music, hairstyle, bible version, friend circle, free time activity etc) is interpreted as a manifestation of holiness, there is this INSANE pressure to be little miss perfect. In Catholicism, I always had a two step fix: pray about it, and if I can't deal with it then go to confession. And I never even got to the confession part because usually I admitted my wrongdoings in prayer and was able to figure out how to make amends from there. 

But the guilt and the paranoia about having every single aspect of your life scrutinized for "godliness" in a cult-like manner still sits with me. And I'm trying to figure out whether to go back to Catholicism because it now seems less sectarian, more intellectual, and less dangerous. 

This. This. This. 

Everything is judged in that world. Absolutely everything. On top of that, the Christian school admins scrutinized us and spied on us endlessly. One principal would do walk throughs of the parking lot and look in the windows of the staff's cars searching for contraband. I was called in because she saw a James Taylor CD in my car. 

Where you shopped was suspect. Who did your hair. Who your dentist was. That Christian business directory thing? That was serious business and you damn well better not have been getting your oil changed at an establishment that wasn't in it. Parents who saw you in the "wrong" place in public would report you. My family was questionable (they weren't Christian enough) and I was pushed to avoid them, including my parents and only sibling. The school board once toyed with requesting library records for the teachers and high school students from the city's public library to make sure we weren't reading anything questionable outside of school. I think it was abandoned when people told them that the ALA doesn't do that kind of thing and they would be refused very quickly.  Another young teacher and I were disciplined one year that we were sharing an apartment because we did not hear about a weather closing that was only put on the Christian radio station. The incident revealed that we didn't listen to that station which was not acceptable--another station or cds on the commute was unacceptable and ungodly. And "How was your weekend?" wasn't small talk in the teacher's lounge, it was basically surveillance. To make it harder, you never really knew what would be deemed wrong. Some things that seemed innocent could get you in trouble. 

And any shortcomings as teachers were blamed on hidden sin or general ungodliness. My inability to catch gum chewers (seriously, unless they are smacking it or chewing it with their mouths open, I don't notice) was considered to be evidence of hidden sins that I needed to confess to colleagues (in the mandatory "accountability group"). 

[Jana814]

@louisa05 that is insane that the school would do such a thing. 

[rezski44]

Love this thread about confession.  A few years ago at my Catholic church in the PNW the priest started to "remind" people about the need to confess. He must have noticed that 95% went to communion but very few were showing up to confession. Pretty sure it didn't work as the reminders went away. May have even lost a few parishioners. Few of the families have more than 2 or maybe 3 kids and the most I have seen are 7 in maybe 3 families. I don't even know when I last went, It may have been when I got the Sacrament for the sick when I was facing life changing surgery that luckily wasn't cancer yet for Chrohns. PS I have been well ever since.  Pretty sure I won't be going to confession ever again as I am fine with talking straight to God and I haven't committed murder or stolen anything. I'm an adult convert and am in the right place for me.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@louisa05--I thought of your experiences teaching in that Christian school when I saw this recently:

(Because it reminded me of your description of the daily staff prayers/gossip fest.)

[Season of life...]

14 hours ago, nausicaa said:

 You're not alone. I remember every time I put my foot in my mouth going back to fifth grade. And whenever I can't sleep, I get to go over all of them in my head on a cycle. Fun times. 

Oh Lord, I'm part of that club. I too remember every time I hurt someone's feelings. The guilt sticks, despite apologies.

I still cringe over something that happened when I was a young clerk, many years ago. A man came up to the desk, and I, feeling unusually chatty, commented that he must have the terrible cold that was going around because his voice was raspy. No, not a cold--he had throat cancer and the rasp was permanent.

I really could have died from mortification. I apologized, quite abjectly, and he ended up feeling badly that I felt so awful. Just terrible all around. 

 

[Scrabblemaster]

I did confession twice in my whole life. First time before my first communion, second time before my confirmation. Although I went to a catholic school we never had to do confessions there. The reason might have been, that our school priest must have had more common sense, that obligatory confessions may not be that honest. 

Before my first communion I had  to confess to our local priest, like every other child.  Before my confirmation I chose a monastery in our town where they had monks/priests  who did the confessions. I felt way more comfortable the second time because I thought that my sins are not the business of the local priest. And that monk/priest was more open than our local priest, I remember the second confession was more like a conversation about god and confirmation. 

I never confessed sins again not because I think that I am holier than thou but because I think it is between me and God. 

[KnittingOwl]

18 hours ago, nausicaa said:

@SapphireSlytherin You're not alone. I remember every time I put my foot in my mouth going back to fifth grade. And whenever I can't sleep, I get to go over all of them in my head on a cycle. Fun times. 

I do that all the time. Sometimes it seems like I only remember the bad things/awkward moments. 

[Italiangirl]

I found this in my fb feed the oth3re day and i couldn't not thinking  about all out fundie and their endlessy call about adoption and babyes