Jinger 29: New House and New Wardrobe

[victoriasponge]

10 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

As an atheist (raised Methodist) I am beyond horrified at the confession thing. Seriously.

I can't imagine the angst and fear and humiliation of having to tell some guy in a robe/shawl/whatever your deepest, darkest secrets. Nope.

But each to his/her own.

I continued going to Confession at my Catholic School even after I had accepted I was an atheist. I found it a useful way to think back on my past few weeks and come to terms with what I felt guilty about and tell someone else who wasn't going to judge. The priests, for the most part, were in their simple robes, and there was one in each corner of the room with a small candle vigil in the middle for people to sit and meditate by. It was pretty relaxing. If I'm honest, the idea of a confessional box actually creeps me out more, but maybe that's just how I like to communicate.

There's bits about the Catholic Church I struggle to accept, but Confession wasn't actually one of them, and I only have good memories of my First Reconciliation. I think it is quite a personal thing as to whether it works for someone or not.

[NakedKnees]

I only attended Catholic church until I was 5 or so, but I've always liked the idea of confessional. I'm sure everyone's different, but even as a little kid I always felt guilty and distracted by this and that choices I'd make.

That said, feeling pressured to reveal personal information, especially sexual, is extremely unnerving and that side of it sounds dark.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

15 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Typing my stories out I felt the exact same.  At least people getting interrogated by the police have a table and some water.  It really bothered me that the set up was like this: 

  Hide contents

I distinctly remember feeling that there should be something between us.  It was so awkward and uncomfortable. Maybe that's why I felt no guilt whatsoever making up sins.

FUCK!  So many memories.  I HATED confession, in fact I hated the whole Catholic experience. It felt like guilt and shame wrapped up in misery to me.  I never understood how people would willing grow up and CHOOSE to keep living like that. But now I realize most of it was just how awful my parents were and how they only went to mass and did what they were told to do out of fear of burning in hell, not because they enjoyed it or particularly believed what they were doing.

ETA, the fact that the priest at our perish was an ASSHOLE of epic proportions didn't help either.

[Carm_88]

I remember being so nervous for Penance, it seemed so much worst then Communion. We didn't have to go into a box with the priest, we had to go up on the alter, in front of all our family, confess, and then come down to do our prayers. It was the first and last time I went to confession. 

[InTheNameofRufus]

@PennySycamore I'm so sorry, I did not want to put my actual location out there so I put in the location of our wise and most Holy Rufus! I am actually in the North East, far away from Harvey. I sincerely apologize for the misdirection! My thoughts and prayers are with everyone affected by Hurricane Harvey. 

(On an unrelated thread topic, my sister in law works for Carnival Cruises and was supposed to leave Saturday for Galveston to board a ship. The company wisely changed her flight to this Saturday)

[JenniferJuniper]

1 hour ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I never understood how people would willing grow up and CHOOSE to keep living like that. But now I realize most of it was just how awful my parents were and how they only went to mass and did what they were told to do out of fear of burning in hell, not because they enjoyed it or particularly believed what they were doing.

ETA, the fact that the priest at our perish was an ASSHOLE of epic proportions didn't help either.

Our priests, save one young fellow who sadly ended up with meningitis and died, were all complete assholes as well. One was later named as a molester of girls, another, probably one of the smuggest assholes ever, was arrested for soliciting sex from an undercover cop - in his eighties!   My BS detector was new at the time, but it was functional enough for me to sense these weren't quality people.  And so there was no way I was telling them anything about myself.

My parents were like yours, although my mother hardly ever attended church herself.  Maybe because her mother had been excommunicated back in the 1940's for being divorced.  But she'd make our father drag us every Sunday.  (Unless I'd managed to sneak in and shut their alarm clock off!)  It was mostly because kids couldn't attend CCD unless they attended mass regularly but I think my father eventually stopped taking the younger kids when the Church started caring only about whether they were getting fees and donations.

[louisa05]

9 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

BMJB explained that Lutheran churches don't have confessionals because members confess their sins together during the worship service 

Catholics do this at every mass. Having attended Lutheran church quite a lot in my life (hell, pick a denomination, I've probably gone there or sat through their youth pastors preaching at school chapel), the general confession is much the same in liturgical Lutheran churches as it is at Catholic mass. For Catholics, it is, in fact, sufficient for those who only have venial sins. Practicing Catholics are only required to go to confession once a year, barring mortal sin, because of the general confession and absolution at masses. 

In Catholic school and religious ed programs, kids are generally encouraged to go more often to try to make it a habit for them. But reading about people's experiences in these threads is making it quite clear that when concerned Catholic educators and catechists talk about the rotten state of catechesis among American catholics, they are not at all wrong. So some thoughts: 

1--If you were taught to go tell the priest every detail of everything you did, you were taught wrong. You are supposed to say "I told a lie" not tell the entire story of that lie from beginning to end. 

2--If you were sent to the confessional as a child or teen living in fear of having nothing to say and left making stuff up, those adults in charge failed to teach you a key point of preparing for confession: the examination of conscience. If you were given an examination of conscience (which is not an exam of any sort--it is generally a list of statements or questions designed to help you remember things you may have done wrong) that merely listed the 10 Commandments or simply told to think through the 10 Commandments, they also failed you. Kids and teens often understand the letter of the law without understanding the spirit of the law. Our confirmation kids in 7th-8th grade will tell us they never steal. They will also tell us that they frequently copy each other's homework. Well, copying an assignment you are meant to do yourself is stealing someone else's work. (Now, having been in their school frequently, a lot of that is a problem with the homework, but that is neither here nor there for my example). The examination of conscience sheet they are given when we arrive at the church for penance is written for youth and asks them questions like "have I cheated on homework?". Now, if they have, they are instructed to say to the priest, "I cheated on homework". Not: "I was at Katelyn's house, you know Katelyn, she's over there, and we didn't want to do our math, so we texted Zach even though we weren't supposed to be using our phones, and he sent us his answers". Nope. Not necessary. "I copied someone else's homework" is sufficient. 

3--If you are American and in the last 15-17 years since the USCCB mandated safe environment training and practices in response to the abuse scandals, you went into a room alone with a priest for confession with the door closed or into a traditional confessional with no barrier between you (particularly as a child or teen), your church was ignoring the policies. The reason that face to face confessions are done in the open around the church, especially with children and teens, is to provide for safe and open interaction between them and the priest. We just had the discussion about this at our opening religious education teachers meetings as there have been recent concerns about privacy. One addition that is planned is to play music in the church so voices are not heard as easily which is what the Catholic school I taught in did during penance. 

4--Priests, in general, get that confession is not something that comes easily to kids and expect to hear the same things over and over and for them to be the kinds of things that have been said here. That issue has come up in our religious ed meetings in regard to first confessions and penance services. They also get that kids are not necessarily accountable for their sins. We have had religious ed students tell us over and over that they don't always go to mass on the weekends because their parents simply don't bother. Some have expressed trepidation at confessing that they missed masses and feel like it is not fair because it is not their fault. We have talked to our priests about the problem on behalf of our kids and the answer has always been that they do not hold the kids accountable for that in confession and often tell them that they should ask their parents to take them, but if they do not (these kids are 12-13 years old), that is not their fault as they did not make the choice. One reason for face to face confession is that a 13 year old girl, for example, might sound very adult through that screen and the priest might come down on her for something that is not her fault. Face to face, he knows that a 13 year old can't drive herself to mass. 

5--Soutanes and vestments are not dresses or skirts. If you pay attention, you will see that the priest is wearing pants under them. 

6--When I was in RCIA, I had a very difficult time with the concept of confession. At Christian school, we had been forced into "accountability groups" where we were expected to confess sins and shortcomings to colleagues. Every group essentially had a mole who then reported to the admins, no less. Participation was, of course, required as a condition of employment. When I became Catholic, I worked in a Catholic school. The senior pastor was, essentially, my boss. The idea of confessing to him was not appealing--I was fairly certain anything said in the confessional would be held against me outside it. So I ended up having a long talk about all of it with the associate pastor. I won't bore you with all of the details, but here is a huge thing that I took away that applies to a lot of what has been said here along the lines of "what did the priest think about what I said?" . Answer: he really didn't think at all. The night I had this discussion with the priest, they had held a lenten penance service. By his estimate, he had heard about 60 confessions in a little over two hours. Guess what? Priests are human and that gets boring. It all runs together. They don't have time to dwell on any of it. He also said that in seminary preparation, he was taught to never dwell on it, to let it all run together, because doing so keeps the seal of confession. When we do a penance service with our religious ed kids, there are usually 4 priests available. In the session I teach in, there are typically about 125 kids and 10-15 adults. Each priest stands to hear around 35 confessions in as close to an hour as possible. Unless you are in there confessing to being a wanted serial killer, nothing is going to stand out. Could that be different if you call your parish priest and make an appointment just for confession and he only hears yours then goes onto something else? Sure. BUT, again, priests are busy people. And they have learned to go onto the next thing and not dwell on that information and even not to file it in their memory. At our confirmation teacher/staff dinner last spring, our priest ran his schedule for the weekend by us. He did an adoration Saturday morning, heard a couple of confessions before lunch, had a baptism at 2 p.m., confirmation mass at 5 p.m., dinner with the archbishop following, two masses Sunday morning, first communion mass that afternoon, and made dinner for a parish group (he became a priest at 40 after working as a professional chef for many years--you all should come to one of his dinners sometime!) then did a theology talk for that group after serving it. I'm guessing he couldn't have remembered those two confessions later if he tried. 

All of that said, I understand that confession can be a difficult concept whether you are Catholic or not. I still have a difficult time with it. I have been to confession all of twice since converting (over 8 years ago). I get all of this and I teach it to our confirmation kids. But I still have trouble with it on a personal level which is likely still very much related to what I went through in the Christian school. 

[Beermeet]

@louisa05.   I wonder if things have changed?  I made my 1st communion in the late 70's.  We practiced for it in religion and just saying "I lied" wasn't enough hence my specific oatmeal story.  We all had to do the same and we practised our real confession in private with the teacher.  We were coached for the 1st.

My everything confession years later was something I wanted to do in preparation for RCIA.  I didn't keep up and missed confirmation with everyone else.  But, I had decided to rededicate myself to the church and wanted a clean slate.  So, that's on me.  Nobody forced me to do it.  I was having premarital sex and that is a sin, so I confessed it.  I did not go into great detail there but I was also confessing other things like smoking pot, so, overall very intense.  I didn't land up feeling better like I thought but at least I went through with it like I wanted to.

[cascarones]

Growing up in a mixed denomination household (Catholic and Baptist), I was never forced to go to confession other than for First Communion. We also had the choice for Confirmation or not as teens, our parents were pretty open about their own questioning and religious exploration in their later teens/ early twenties. 

My only confession story is similarly neurotic: I was at the Vatican when the boyfriend who lived there (not a priest) realized he was scheduled for confession and I felt pressured to follow suit. I fumbled through a nervous confession, where I kept cursing in frustration in not my native language, until the priest gently stopped me and let me know he spoke a bit of English. I, very embarassed at this point, said "oh." and asked if I'd made sense. Partly because I didn't want to have to repeat it in English and partly because I was curious, my conjugation has never been great and deteriorates rapidly when feeling nervous.

I got informed with a chuckle that yes, he understood my cursing perfectly well, gave me standard Hail Marys and recommended that perhaps I replace muttering shit hill with a similar sounding phrase with a negative in front of it that meant to not lose hope. I think anyway. While mortifying and I tried, but I probably just started muttering "not a shit hill" instead.

[louisa05]

36 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

@louisa05.   I wonder if things have changed?  I made my 1st communion in the late 70's.  We practiced for it in religion and just saying "I lied" wasn't enough hence my specific oatmeal story.  We all had to do the same and we practised our real confession in private with the teacher.  We were coached for the 1st.

My everything confession years later was something I wanted to do in preparation for RCIA.  I didn't keep up and missed confirmation with everyone else.  But, I had decided to rededicate myself to the church and wanted a clean slate.  So, that's on me.  Nobody forced me to do it.  I was having premarital sex and that is a sin, so I confessed it.  I did not go into great detail there but I was also confessing other things like smoking pot, so, overall very intense.  I didn't land up feeling better like I thought but at least I went through with it like I wanted to.

I don't think this has changed. When I was in Catholic school in the early 80s, a priest kind of went off on our seventh grade class after confessions once that you are not meant to be giving a narrative of everything.

 I think that catechesis has been utterly horrible. The people teaching you simply didn't know what they were supposed to do. It is something that a lot of dioceses have been making a concerted effort to change. But for kids not in Catholic schools, religious education is typically provided by volunteers in the parish who have little or no training. Sometimes, getting a teacher in every classroom results in some classes having a teacher who is not much more than a warm body. Two of the other confirmation teachers in our parish right now are, quite frankly, disasters. One is a Trump lover obsessed with politics who wastes half of the kids' time on his own interpretations of current events and the other half reading them adult devotions that I'm sure they get nothing out of. The other just has them draw pictures or watch the videos we've been given with no discussion or follow up because she insists (no matter how much help she is given) that she doesn't know what to teach or how to teach it. Meanwhile in Catholic school, teachers are not usually trained in teaching theology. I have known non-Catholics who taught in the early grades and were responsible for preparing kids for first confession and first communion. 

Some dioceses are trying to change this by offering training for teachers in schools and for volunteers in parishes. But it is very hit and miss. And I find that the training available for parish volunteers doesn't really hit on content but is more focused on methods, activities, making connections with kids, or personal spiritual development for the teachers. I also know of parishes who are paying a small bit to parish religious education teachers so they can require more of them. But obviously that is not a viable option for most parishes. 

3 minutes ago, cascarones said:

I got informed with a chuckle that yes, he understood my cursing perfectly well, gave me standard Hail Marys and recommended that perhaps I replace muttering shit hill with a similar sounding phrase with a negative in front of it that meant to not lose hope. I think anyway. While mortifying and I tried, but I probably just started muttering "not a shit hill" instead.

In seventh grade, the same priest noted above got irritate with us because too many people confessed swearing and went off on how saying words like "shit" is not sinful, although it may be vulgar. He vividly made it clear that there is no need to confess swearing unless you take the Lord's name in vain. 

[Greendoor]

Anglican here.  We do the General Confession too.

But, as we are sort of Catholic-lite (as said by Robin Williams , "All of the pagentry, none of the guilt".)  our idea of Private Confession is:

All may

Some should

None have to

[Lovebug]

18 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

As an atheist (raised Methodist) I am beyond horrified at the confession thing. Seriously.

I can't imagine the angst and fear and humiliation of having to tell some guy in a robe/shawl/whatever your deepest, darkest secrets. Nope.

But each to his/her own.

As a former Catholic made to be baptized, have a first communion, confirmation and go to Catholic school - I, too, am horrified that by this.  We had regularly scheduled confessions, and it sucked.  As an adult, I'm even more mortified that I was made to participate in this practice.

As a now agnostic/atheist, Catholicism played a significant part in why I'm a non-believer now.  It's not the only thing, but it's a big thing.

In *my* experience growing up Catholic, I feel as if I was surrounded by some of the most hypocritical people, ever.  And mean.  Regina George had nothing on the mean, nasty girls I went to school with.  It was a living hell most days...

*To reiterate - this is my experience only.  I do not mean to offend anyone whatsoever, or label any religious group as a whole based on what I went through!

[louisa05]

4 minutes ago, Lovebug said:

As a former Catholic made to be baptized, have a first communion, confirmation and go to Catholic school - I, too, am horrified that by this.  We had regularly scheduled confessions, and it sucked.  As an adult, I'm even more mortified that I was made to participate in this practice.

As a now agnostic/atheist, Catholicism played a significant part in why I'm a non-believer now.  It's not the only thing, but it's a big thing.

In *my* experience growing up Catholic, I feel as if I was surrounded by some of the most hypocritical people, ever.  And mean.  Regina George had nothing on the mean, nasty girls I went to school with.  It was a living hell most days...

*To reiterate - this is my experience only.  I do not mean to offend anyone whatsoever, or label any religious group as a whole based on what I went through!

And we had some horrible kids in the Catholic school I taught in, too. But I'm not sure that it is fair to conclude that Catholicism made them horrible. If so, I would have to say that all public schools are dens of endless bullying as I was bullied not only by students but by teachers and other staff members as a child in public school. Somehow, as an adult, it has been clear to me that they were bad people rather than it being a public school being the reason for their behavior. The public schools I work in do their best to provide their students with a safe environment to learn in as did the Catholic school system I attended for the latter half of my education. The fact that one of the public schools I attended did not and that the Catholic school I worked in did not is not a reflection on all Catholic or public schools. 

See how that works? 

[Beermeet]

@louisa05.  You are so right about the teachers.  I was under the impression  they had good standardized preparation to so however.  I wouldn't be able to know as a kid but my RCIA teachers were a very nice married couple and the husband was a deacon at my church.  So, clealy he knew what he was talking about.  He was also the dad to former school mates.  Small town and all.

[Beermeet]

20 hours ago, HarryPotterFan said:

It's really interesting to compare different traditions for confessing/asking for forgiveness of sins. In Judaism we ask for forgiveness for our sins on Yom Kippur directly from G-d, we never go to a rabbi about our sins. And when we confess our sins we aren't just confessing and asking for forgiveness on a personal level, but as humankind. The mahzor (prayer book for the high holiday) lists out all the sins of human kind, and we read aloud and beat our chests over our heart with each one. 

I really love this!   I find Judaism to be very thoughtful in it's rituals and methods.  I enjoy learning as much as I can.  

[justoneoftwo]

I have always loved that before asking G-d for forgiveness we ask other people. It makes sense that you must also ask forgiveness of the person you hurt, G-d can't forgive you for them.

[Lovebug]

@louisa05 I totally get it, and never meant to infer that the school made them that way.  I was simply noting my personal experience growing up in Catholic school, and what resulted from it as I grew up.  I attempted to placate potentially offending anyone, or to place labels as a whole based on my experience - I would never do that - hope that makes sense.  Sorry if I didn't do that well!

That said, I'm all about learning and seeing different perspectives, so thank you for sharing yours!

[HarryPotterFan]

22 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

YK is just about a month away. I probably committed most on that list. I don't go to services or fast anymore but I do spend the day off the grid these days at my elderly mom's house (she is home bound) keeping her company.

 

As long as you only committed most of the sins, and not all of them...   I think murder is on there? I forget. But I always feel bad when I recite, "We have sinned against you through impure thoughts" because I was likely thinking impure thoughts 5 minutes earlier and scanning the congregation for hotties. Which I justify by thinking, "Well, G-d WANTS me to find a nice Jewish boy..." be fruitful and multiply and all that.

And keeping your mother company is a wonderful mitzvah!

I'm wondering if it's too late to volunteer to help out with little kiddie services or babysitting, but I feel bad about doing either of those things because while I love kids, part of my motivation would be to get out of services. 

2 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

I have always loved that before asking G-d for forgiveness we ask other people. It makes sense that you must also ask forgiveness of the person you hurt, G-d can't forgive you for them.

I'm so bad at doing this. I always feel so awkward and shy about it, and no one in my family does it.

[justoneoftwo]

It's super hard to do that.  I have the hardest time at work, because its inappropriate to bring religion into work, but how else do you do it?  Also really struggled with a stalker I once had, do I contact him to atone?  (I didn't, I think G-d understands) 

[Beermeet]

17 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

It's super hard to do that.  I have the hardest time at work, because its inappropriate to bring religion into work, but how else do you do it?  Also really struggled with a stalker I once had, do I contact him to atone?  (I didn't, I think G-d understands) 

You could just aplogize and be religious in your head, yeah?

Sounds like the stalker should atone!  I had one and it was scary.  He can go to fundie hell for all I care!  

ETA:  my Jewish Dr. and I were chatting about the BC I was on years ago, I mentioned I felt guilty and wasn't supposed to be on it or having sex.  He asked if I was Catholic,  I was like yes, how'd you guess?  Reply:  the Jews invented guilt but the Catholics perfected it.  LOL!

[justoneoftwo]

6 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

You could just aplogize and be religious in your head, yeah?

Sounds like the stalker should atone!  I had one and it was scary.  He can go to fundie hell for all I care!  

Interestingly I was always taught that no, can't be all in your head.  You have to talk to those you may have hurt and try to atone.  Its hard, but in general I actually like it.  But yes, I don't always talk to everyone.  

[Beermeet]

@justoneoftwo.  I see.  Do you mind if I ask what a proper apology would sound like?  Like, what needs to be done/said that would make it religious to a non-Jewish person at work.  Sorry if that is a weird request, I'm genuinely curious though.

[justoneoftwo]

Just now, Beermeet said:

@justoneoftwo.  I see.  Do you mind if I ask what a proper apology would sound like?  Like, what needs to be done/said that would make it religious to a non-Jewish person at work.  Sorry if that is a weird request, I'm genuinely curious though.

I usually start with if there is something I know I did that hurt someone and then add (or if I don't know) something along the lines of "If there is anything (anything else) I have done that has hurt you this year I would like to apologize and try to fix it."  Honestly I don't usually do it at work, because saying something like that without the context is weird, and I tend to over apologize anyway, so I don't want to add to it.  I'll sometimes even (like when I was in school with non Jews) explain before doing so, so they get the context.  

[Lizzybet]

Put me in the tiniest category of having liked going to confession.

I was never specific, and it was okay.  I was never asked for more details.

Most of my stuff was 'fought with my sister, yelled at my mother, had impure thoughts' etc. I always felt better afterward- happier, lighter. The priest would say 'are you sorry for your sins' or something similar, and in that moment, I really was, and meant not to commit those sins again, though that didn't last long.

I'm lapsed now, vacillating between atheism and agnosticism. But I agree with someone upthread (I think it was here) that once a Catholic, always a Catholic'. 

I do feel that the Church of Rome is, possibly, the only organized religion that it's okay to slam. I say 'possibly' because I admit to a certain defensiveness or protectiveness of the faith of my ancestors, as far back as anyone knows. But, I realize feelings are not facts.

[Clairice]

I'm not Catholic so have never done Confession. My children are and my daughter went to a Catholic Primary School. The school used to go over to the church over the road for Mass and parents were encouraged to go as well.

I loved the services and although I don't have a huge faith started to go to Mass when the children were not there. I loved the solitude and the time for contemplation. The fact that the service was exactly the same each time was really comforting.