Stockdale family murders

[gustava]

It's said about law school grades:

A students become professors

B students become judges

C  students become rich

[quiversR4hunting]

1 hour ago, gustava said:

It's said about law school grades:

A students become professors

B students become judges

C  students become rich

I want to know which ones become referees (aka Judge lite) 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

He may have alerted the police and waited for them to be sure that his father/other brothers/neighbor didn't find them first and avoid for them to be in any way involved.

[HarleyQuinn]

Has there been any updates on this case? Is Jacob still in the hospital? I can't seem to find anything.

[apandaaries]

5 hours ago, gustava said:

It's said about law school grades:

A students become professors

B students become judges

C  students become rich

I'd heard that 

A students become professors

B students become attorneys

C students become judges

Which probably reveals a lot about the people who told us these jokes.

While this entire story is horrible, I am curious about untreated mental illness.  The family appears to be high achieving in a number of ways (those other brothers are doing well), but Jacob excelled in fiddling.  He didn't become an academic success.  We certainly don't know how his parents dealt with that or how they presented that to others, but there is certainly  room for tension in that case. There can be a lot of factors for not doing well in college at a young age, but there are also a lot of mental illnesses that begin presenting around 18-25 years of age.  

This is anecdata, but during my time as an undergrad, I had three young male friends who were diagnosed with schizophrenia.  They were all extremely intelligent, and interestingly enough, all were quite musical and religious (to a degree -- Jewish, Muslim, and Mormon, all raised with some amount of religious teachings, though none were practicing at the time) as well. With significant help from the medical community and their families, all graduated.  One has really thrived with ongoing therapy and family support; the other two continue to struggle. And since graduating, I've seen other men break with reality, sadly.

But what if any one of those religions had told them that their mental illness was a result of not believing or praying enough? What if their only course of "medication" was prayer and/or fasting?  What if they were told that they weren't really sick, but being punished by God for  their shortcomings?

I don't personally know what it's like to have hallucinations, but I've known men who have truly, sincerely, completely believed that Satan reached out to touch them, that Putin followed them, that the CIA had a case file on them, that they were prophets here on earth to guide others, etc.  Some people have a break with reality that just...remains.  They may not get help and they may not admit that terrible things are happening in their heads.  I think people think of psychotic breaks as similar to the Invisible Children guy (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/invisible-children-co-founder-jason-russell-reportedly-arrested/2012/03/16/gIQAuBl5GS_blog.html?utm_term=.b3a8375af88e), but that's not the only way psychosis presents.  Andrea Yates was living in an entirely different reality, but was still able to plan just enough to carry out her worst ideas...with the hope of saving her children from Satan.  I don't think that's uncommon in untreated mental illness. Psychosis with strong religious overtones is another scary beast altogether.  This isn't another Andrea Yates, but there's certainly a toxic brew of isolation and religion in this case.

[Black Aliss]

12 hours ago, guitar_villain said:

One of my freshman hall mates had a 0.2. He's now the VP for risk management at an airline.

I don't know what happened to the guy who got a 0.0.  He transferred to another school and I think graduated normally.

 Not only was I suffering from depression and probably a host of other comorbidities at age 17, I was no way emotionally or intellectually prepared for University life. I mean, in some ways I was ready to bust loose from my fundie family of origin and try everything I'd ever been told was a sin. But academically? No way. 20 year later, with an actual reason for being in college, besides trying drugs and losing my virginity I mean, I had no trouble getting and staying with the program.

[Snarkle Motion]

6 hours ago, amandaaries said:

I'd heard that 

A students become professors

B students become attorneys

C students become judges

Which probably reveals a lot about the people who told us these jokes.

While this entire story is horrible, I am curious about untreated mental illness.  The family appears to be high achieving in a number of ways (those other brothers are doing well), but Jacob excelled in fiddling.  He didn't become an academic success.  We certainly don't know how his parents dealt with that or how they presented that to others, but there is certainly  room for tension in that case. There can be a lot of factors for not doing well in college at a young age, but there are also a lot of mental illnesses that begin presenting around 18-25 years of age.  

This is anecdata, but during my time as an undergrad, I had three young male friends who were diagnosed with schizophrenia.  They were all extremely intelligent, and interestingly enough, all were quite musical and religious (to a degree -- Jewish, Muslim, and Mormon, all raised with some amount of religious teachings, though none were practicing at the time) as well. With significant help from the medical community and their families, all graduated.  One has really thrived with ongoing therapy and family support; the other two continue to struggle. And since graduating, I've seen other men break with reality, sadly.

But what if any one of those religions had told them that their mental illness was a result of not believing or praying enough? What if their only course of "medication" was prayer and/or fasting?  What if they were told that they weren't really sick, but being punished by God for  their shortcomings?

I don't personally know what it's like to have hallucinations, but I've known men who have truly, sincerely, completely believed that Satan reached out to touch them, that Putin followed them, that the CIA had a case file on them, that they were prophets here on earth to guide others, etc.  Some people have a break with reality that just...remains.  They may not get help and they may not admit that terrible things are happening in their heads.  I think people think of psychotic breaks as similar to the Invisible Children guy (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/invisible-children-co-founder-jason-russell-reportedly-arrested/2012/03/16/gIQAuBl5GS_blog.html?utm_term=.b3a8375af88e), but that's not the only way psychosis presents.  Andrea Yates was living in an entirely different reality, but was still able to plan just enough to carry out her worst ideas...with the hope of saving her children from Satan.  I don't think that's uncommon in untreated mental illness. Psychosis with strong religious overtones is another scary beast altogether.  This isn't another Andrea Yates, but there's certainly a toxic brew of isolation and religion in this case.

My previous job involved doing interviews and assisting with write-ups for attending psychologists at a large treatment facility. I was really shocked by how common audio and visual hallucinations occurred in young adults. Like it was not "common" and we were dealing with a severe population, but it was more frequent than I'd expected and not necessarily from the people you'd expect - they may have otherwise shown very few signs of psychosis.

There was one girl who was functioning at a very high level academically, very social, seemed to be doing well before a recent suicide attempt. She described feeling more depressed but it took a long time for her to open up about psychotic symptoms she was experiencing. The main hallucination was a  cloaked "evil shadow man without a face" that floated around her room at night, terrified her, and made it hard to sleep. Because she knew it wasn't real she was afraid to tell people what she was experiencing and had just tried to "ignore it." 

For many of the people I worked with hallucinations start as vague shapes/shadows and unidentifiable whispers that are often worse at night. Or a vague feeling of being watched. But then it can progress to specific identifiable figures - they may give them names - and distinct voices (often more than one) that tell them to hurt themselves or others. Your culture can shape your perception of things and influence how these manifest or are interpreted. I'd imagine that  someone with strong religious upbringing would potentially interpret these experiences being directed by demons or god himself. 

[apandaaries]

@Snarkle Motion I have read the same thing about cultural influences with mental illness.  In India and Africa, apparently, a lot of those voices are fairly kind: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/07/when-hearing-voices-is-a-good-thing/374863/

And you are completely correct that some display very few signs of psychosis.  Some people become quite adept at hiding what's going on with them.  In such an overwhelmingly religious household, what would this guy have heard about mental illness and faith?  What help could he have gotten? How would his parents have coped? Would they have helped him find help with medical professionals, or added more cod liver oil to his diet?

 Finding help for mental illness can be incredibly challenging.  Getting the right meds at the right dosage can be an ongoing struggle. I know with the friends I had who experienced this, the ONE who has successfully coped with his illness had a ton of family support and just kept trying with the meds. It took a long time to improve his situation.  Others I've known have disliked the meds or the concept of ongoing medication so they just stopped trying, basically.  These were people whose families believed in modern medicine and mental illness, not prayer and whole foods for healing, and they still couldn't find a way to deal with the mental illness.  

This is a complex situation, but I suspect that there was more going on with this guy.

[Howl]

17 hours ago, Snarkle Motion said:

My previous job involved doing interviews and assisting with write-ups for attending psychologists at a large treatment facility. I was really shocked by how common audio and visual hallucinations occurred in young adults. Like it was not "common" and we were dealing with a severe population, but it was more frequent than I'd expected and not necessarily from the people you'd expect - they may have otherwise shown very few signs of psychosis.

I just made a connection between your post and an incident on a college campus in our city in May 2016.  A college kid, who by all accounts was universally liked and socially and academically successful, calmly walked into a crowd of students on campus, pushed a woman out of  his way and began stabbing other male students (all strangers) with a large knife. He killed one kid and wounded three others.  Although he had previously been treated for mental illness, nobody saw this attack coming; he seemed to be doing fine.  

He was arrested for murder, but my sincere hope is that he is being treated for mental illness and will be institutionalized and not stand trial for murder.  Murder by reason of insanity has been a very, very tough sell to Texas juries, as Andrea Yates' lawyer can probably tell you, and the crux element of a murder by reason of insanity defense in Texas hinges on whether the defendant was able to tell right from wrong during the commission of the crime.  

[smittykins]

Isn't that the same in most states(that as long as a person knows the actions are wrong , s/he's not criminally insane)?  That's what I've always heard.

[JesusCampSongs]

45 minutes ago, smittykins said:

Isn't that the same in most states(that as long as a person knows the actions are wrong , s/he's not criminally insane)?  That's what I've always heard.

The insanity defense is a really complicated subject, from both a legal and psychological standpoint. As a Degreed Mental Health Professional (TM), it's really unusual to run across someone in the community who is impaired to the point where you can ethically make the argument that they shouldn't be held legally responsible for whatever it was they did. The legal hoops an attorney has to jump through in order to successfully execute this defense are accordingly high (and figuratively flaming). The TL;DR: from the psychological perspective is that if the defendant was of sound mind at any point of the planning or execution of the crime, the insanity defense cannot be used, nor can it be used if they still knew right from wrong or legal vs. illegal at any point.

It's worth noting that this is not equivalent to whether or not someone is competent to stand trial-- the two get conflated a lot for obvious reasons, but aren't the same thing. 

I think that the Andrea Yates case (her second trial) is a great example of the insanity defense being used appropriately and successfully. 

[Howl]

1 hour ago, JesusCampSongs said:

I think that the Andrea Yates case (her second trial) is a great example of the insanity defense being used appropriately and successfully. 

Yes, I was going to add that in to my original post, but it was getting too long.  Andrea Yates "knew" that in the secular world what she did was considered "wrong" and we know this because she called the police when she was done killing her children.  However, in her psychotic world of God and Satan, she absolutely knew what she was compelled to do, which was kill her children so they could get into heaven.  In her mind at the time, she made the ultimate sacrifice.  

I was very happy when she was found not guilty by reason of insanity at her second trial. She is still institutionalized in Texas, but at least getting ongoing treatment.  It did make me a little ill to read that her ex husband attended at least part of her second trial. 

[Snarkle Motion]

2 hours ago, smittykins said:

Isn't that the same in most states(that as long as a person knows the actions are wrong , s/he's not criminally insane)?  That's what I've always heard.

I don't know about the legal aspects of it. But if the person has had a psychotic break they can still acknowledge murder to be wrong but have no idea what's going on around them - they believe themselves to be under attack or fighting demons or killing evil entities. The college kid discussed above likely wasn't targeting specific people but felt threatened in someway by his delusions since he attacked random strangers. Rarely did any of the kids I work with report homicidal command hallucinations with a specific target - the most concerning type. When they did, it was almost always directed toward a family member or members. I assume because they have the most frequent contact with them.  Kids on a college campus are at heightened risk for a psychtic break due to the age and major stressors associated with moving away from home. 

[Howl]

15 hours ago, Snarkle Motion said:

Kids on a college campus are at heightened risk for a psychtic break due to the age and major stressors associated with moving away from home. 

The attack I referenced above happened in the first week in May.  In the calendar for this particular university, that's the last week of classes and everyone is thinking about finals, or actually sitting for one or multiple final exams on the last day of a class,often with some lengthy research papers due -- another time of very high stress for college students.  

For some of you who are dealing with this type of population -- how does sleeplessness feed into mental instability?  For example, a student is pulling some all nighters writing a research paper or studying for finals and getting by on only a few hours of sleep -- could this trigger a cascade the leads to emotional/mental instability in susceptible people, and then the instability leads to more sleeplessness and exacerbates everything?

[Snarkle Motion]

10 minutes ago, Howl said:

The attack I referenced above happened in the first week in May.  In the calendar for this particular university, that's the last week of classes and everyone is thinking about finals, or actually sitting for one or multiple final exams on the last day of a class,often with some lengthy research papers due -- another time of very high stress for college students.  

For some of you who are dealing with this type of population -- how does sleeplessness feed into mental instability?  For example, a student is pulling some all nighters writing a research paper or studying for finals and getting by on only a few hours of sleep -- could this trigger a cascade the leads to emotional/mental instability in susceptible people, and then the instability leads to more sleeplessness and exacerbates everything?

Yes!!!! Irratitic sleep schedule is a major trigger for mental health problems and particularly bipolar disorders. But consistent sleep schedule is one of the first things we target in treatment. Sleep deprivation increases the risk for hallucinations even in people without history of mental illness. Stress, not sleeping, and drug use is another factor. Any alcohol use or stimulant  use to help him study/stay up may have contributed to his break. It may have been legitimate prescribed medications or he could have purchased stimulants from peers to study for finals which is common on college campuses. It's why kids should of take someone else's medication without a prescription because it seems "safe and helpful" for your roommate but may not be for you if you have history of certain mental health issues. 

[VVV]

11 hours ago, Howl said:

The attack I referenced above happened in the first week in May.  In the calendar for this particular university, that's the last week of classes and everyone is thinking about finals, or actually sitting for one or multiple final exams on the last day of a class,often with some lengthy research papers due -- another time of very high stress for college students.

My son is a student at the same university you are referencing. There was a murder the year before, also--a freshman--but I don't think the offender in that case was a student. I've gotta say, it's scary sending my kid back to school, especially knowing that thanks to our bought-and-paid-for Legislature, it's perfectly legal to carry a gun on campus as long as you're at least 21.

[Howl]

9 hours ago, VVV said:

My son is a student at the same university you are referencing. There was a murder the year before, also--a freshman--but I don't think the offender in that case was a student. I've gotta say, it's scary sending my kid back to school, especially knowing that thanks to our bought-and-paid-for Legislature, it's perfectly legal to carry a gun on campus as long as you're at least 21.

I worked at said university for almost 15 years and retired a few years ago.  When you consider that between undergrad students, grads students, staff and faculty, 40,000 to 50,000 people are coming and going from campus on most days , it's a pretty safe place.  The gun thing is nuts, though. Is open carry now legal on campus for over 21?  I'd say the most danger for all college students is excessive alcohol use, binge drinking in particular.  A substance that impairs judgement while promoting disinhibition is just bad all around for young people. 

[VVV]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

The gun thing is nuts, though. Is open carry now legal on campus for over 21?

 I don't know if it is open or concealed carry; I believe it might be concealed. And professors have the option of posting a sign on their office doors prohibiting guns, but any shared space which of course includes classrooms cannot have them banned.   There was a fight over the dorms and I don't remember the outcome.  Of course excessive alcohol use in combination with easily accessible guns is just asking for trouble. 

[Curious]

I suffered from medically induced hallucinations several times over the last 2 years.   I have no idea factually, but I would guess the brain doesn't really differentiate between causes of hallucinations.

When I was having them, they were completely REAL.  I would get so pissed off at my husband for trying to explain to me that what I was experiencing wasn't real.  To me is was my reality and no amount of him telling me it wasn't was going to help.  It's probaly the only time we have ever really FOUGHT in 20 years together.

When I was lucid I could remember them, but they just seemed silly at the time (and still now), but when I was in one it was not at all funny.

They were so real that I called the police more than once. My husband cringed every day he came into the SNF every day for fear of what he'd be told I did the night before.   At one facility, I was completely convinced that the staff was trying to kill me and that they had come to the house and taken all the dogs but one who was very spooky IRL and she got away.  I saw them snap Daqari's neck in front of me to show me they meant business.   I feared for John and the dogs constantly.  Then the TV started talking to me and I would answer it because duh what else would you do.  I got SO mad at my husband when he couldn't see them talking to me (for me it was sorta like closed captioning, but not exactly). We finally agreed to just leave the tv off and watch my 90 year old roommates tv that was constantly on (and didn't talk to me, because why would it?  duh). 

I got to where when my husband left the room for something, I would quickly turn it on, beg them not to kill him for a minute or 2 and then turn off the tv before he got back. He didn't find out I was doing that until I was telling someone about the hallucinations I'd had after I got out of the SNF.

I started leaving notes in my bedside notebook so that when something happened @buzzard would be able to figure out who the bad people were and could help have them prosecuted.  I left notes for my friends telling them I loved them and would miss them.   My favorite note, that I wrote on a napkin because I couldn't reach my notebook, was to the killers.  I asked them to PLEASE spare John and the dogs, but if they found his mother, I didn't care what happened to her.  John found that one clutched in my hand when he came in the next morning.  I remembered I'd bn hiding it to make sure it didn't get thrown away since it was on a napkin, but didn't remember what I'd written on it.   We both just burst out laughing that even in a hallucination, I was willing to throw his mother under the bus.

Another time at the same SNF, I saw water pouring down the walls and was convinced we would drown if we stayed there.   I told my husband about it and of course he didn't see it.  I asked to be taken out of the room and he was like we are fine.  Finally, I managed to just get him to take me out of the room because I was getting near a full blown panic attack and was sobbing.   The second we got out the door of the room, I was fine and no more water pouring down the walls.

I have a few more hallucinations that are just funny stories now (and were at the time when I was lucid), but when I was in one not fun at all.

[Coy Koi]

I've had hallucinations due to a medical condition before also. I always knew they weren't real, except when they got to their absolute worst (a period of maybe a couple hours) I was somewhat unclear on it. It was just terrifying, so I can only imagine how much worse it must be for people who think their hallucinations are real.

The weird thing is that ever since that happened, even though the medical issue is completely resolved, my brain can sometimes interpret white noise as whispering voices. That never, ever happened before, but now it does often. I can only assume something about my brain was permanently altered. It only happens when I'm trying to sleep. I always have to change positions then to get a different stream of white noise entering my ears (there's always lots of white noise going on in my bedroom, which is necessary in this damn apartment), and then it's fine. Weird, and not something I would normally tell anyone because I don't want them to think I'm "crazy". But since this happened I've done a bit of reading and apparently it's more common than most people realize. Anyway, I 100% know it's not real, and I still can't stand to hear it, because it's upsetting. Your own brain knows better than anyone how to most upset you.

[Curious]

26 minutes ago, Coy Koi said:

Your own brain knows better than anyone how to most upset you.

Truer words have never been spoken!

[livinginthelight]

@Curious, how completely terrifying. Thanks for sharing, and for explaining what it is like for the person suffering the hallucination. I hope you never have to go through that again.

@Coy Koi, I well remember a Psychology 101 class I had many years ago. The instructor had a white noise machine but didn't tell us what it was. He merely said, "I'm turning on this machine, and I want you to listen to it until you hear something. I'm leaving it on for awhile, because I want to make sure everyone hears it." Then we sat there and listened to the white noise. I kid you not, I heard a marimba concert. The music was a little random but the notes were SO real. After he turned off the machine, we discussed what people had heard. There may have been one or two exceptions, but the majority of the class heard something. People singing, animals.... such a wide variety. To each of us, it was very distinct and clear, and we were stunned that nobody else had heard what we heard.

The instructor then explained the concept of Gestalt theory, which is the idea that our brains don't like ambiguous circumstances and will fill in missing pieces to be able to make sense of a situation. His instructions to us had set up the expectation that we would hear something.

To this day, I hear marimbas in white noise. My brain found something that "works" in making sense of the chaos.

BTW, @Coy Koi, I have been wanting to tell you for a long time that I LOVE your avatar and name!

[DancingPhalanges]

Sometimes I think FJ is just a doorway into my life that I cannot understand but just accept. 

I would never talk about this except to my husband, not even on FJ. Except I came across this thread drift and feel a bit of relief. 

Last year Topomax was added on to my treatment plan at the time. It caused parasomnia. It was just like Nightmare on Elm Street. I would sit straight up in bed and see a dark figure coming towards me ready to strangle me to death. I would scream and cry and look over at my husband sleeping, not understanding why he wasn't helping. When I would finally shake free I would burst into tears and my husband would have to console me. Honestly why couldn't it be something nice? Why a murdering dark figure?

Managing my sleep is critical because lack of sleep is a trigger for seizures. I went off that medication and the night terrors/paralysis stopped. 

In May my current medication was upped to the highest dose I have ever been on and changed to an XR version. The last month has been spent hearing whispers and seeing dark movement (at night only). How can I sleep under these conditions? I've resisted a sleeping pill or changing meds because it's such a merry-go-round. I have an appt soon to discuss it all.

It's so frightening that I just want to cry and my husband just cannot understand. He's compassionate and helpful but he looks at me like, I don't know how to explain it. 

Anyway, reading these stories are very helpful. Thank you so much for sharing. 

[Anonymousguest]

I have been with my father while he was having medically induced hallucinations. It was scary and heartbreaking. He tried really hard to believe we were telling him the truth that he was hallucinating, so he would keep checking. Some of what he saw was so minor, like the walls were made of metal or he wasn't wearing underwear. Others were so detailed, like people came to the door and then went room to room in the house and were taking furniture and art work. We'd remind him to look at the dog sleeping, if anyone else was in the house she'd be barking and going crazy. He'd say he knew that was true, but he could see them and hear them. 

[church_of_dog]

1 hour ago, livinginthelight said:

I well remember a Psychology 101 class I had many years ago. The instructor had a white noise machine but didn't tell us what it was. He merely said, "I'm turning on this machine, and I want you to listen to it until you hear something. I'm leaving it on for awhile, because I want to make sure everyone hears it." Then we sat there and listened to the white noise. I kid you not, I heard a marimba concert. The music was a little random but the notes were SO real. After he turned off the machine, we discussed what people had heard. There may have been one or two exceptions, but the majority of the class heard something. People singing, animals.... such a wide variety. To each of us, it was very distinct and clear, and we were stunned that nobody else had heard what we heard.

The instructor then explained the concept of Gestalt theory, which is the idea that our brains don't like ambiguous circumstances and will fill in missing pieces to be able to make sense of a situation. His instructions to us had set up the expectation that we would hear something.

Fascinating!  I wonder if this is the same brain mechanism as the old saw about how whenever the vacuum cleaner is running, we think we hear the phone ringing.  I don't hear a ringing phone under the vacuum noise, but I do almost always hear what sounds like voices/music -- as if the radio was playing or people were chatting right outside the window.  Sometimes I swear I can hear the melody or the beat of the music...

Another similar anecdote:  when I visit my mom in her retirement facility, I sleep on a futon on the floor of her studio apartment.  I go to sleep much earlier than she does and so on the last visit I tried some white noise/falling rain/crackling fireplace youtube videos with earbuds to help me fall asleep without the sounds of her moving about, shuffling papers, etc keeping me up.  I found a recording whose sounds I LOVED and found deeply relaxing -- EXCEPT there was one brief sound every thirty seconds or so, that had the same sound and tonal quality as when my mom says my [single-syllable] name when she's trying to get my attention...  So I found myself pulling out the earbuds to say "did you call me?" a few times.  I knew that would never work -- even knowing she wasn't actually calling me, I knew it would never be relaxing to my subconscious...  Had to switch to a different recording...