Stockdale family murders

[Curious]

Thank you, @Palimpsest for saying what I wanted to say much better than I would have said it.

@really rookie if you want to verify yourself, please contact one of the people listed on the staff page and we will be happy to help you get verified.  Any information you give a member of the staff page will be kept confidential.

[Snarkle Motion]

Not trying to be disrespectful, it genuinely confuses me how a family can live such an isolated life and also be considered pillars of the community. By community does that mean church? Because they seemed to very much restrict interactions of their children. No public school and they probably didn't even need to go into town to buy food. How did they interact with community aside from performing in the band and church?

[calvinball]

I will say they were well known and very respected members of the community.

Everyone turns into a saint upon death. 

[Curious]

3 hours ago, Snarkle Motion said:

Not trying to be disrespectful, it genuinely confuses me how a family can live such an isolated life and also be considered pillars of the community. By community does that mean church? Because they seemed to very much restrict interactions of their children. No public school and they probably didn't even need to go into town to buy food. How did they interact with community aside from performing in the band and church?

From what we can tell based on public information, it seemed like the family was very popular in church and bluegrass circles, so I assume that is the "community" involved.

The Wife Swap manual also said they buy from other farmers in the area whenever possible and that the boys had jobs on other farms in the summer.  So the farming community in their area is another possibility.

People are good at putting up fronts.  No one really knows what is going on behind closed doors.   Look at Doug Phillips (is a tool) for example.  I mean we thought there were shenanigans, but it seems that many people around the family did not.

[Curious]

Hi Folks,

@really rookie has contacted me and based on the information provided I am comfortable saying that s(he) does know the family and did attend the memorial.

I have suggested that if s(he) wants speculation to stop, that giving us more/updated information to add to what we know from public information would help, but that is up to them.

Carry on

[Palimpsest]

3 minutes ago, Curious said:

Hi Folks,

@really rookie has contacted me and based on the information provided I am comfortable saying that s(he) does know the family and did attend the memorial.

Okey dokey.   Thanks!

Perhaps our insider will clarify as to how well they know the family and exactly why they think the Stockdales are so wonderful. 

Here's my issue though.

People are very good at putting up fronts.  I can point to many examples.  The Hale boys (as young adults) actually worked outside the family and never told.  It took the oldest sister escaping and telling her story to end that hell on earth.  

You aren't going to get to know a family by watching them perform bluegrass music in public.  Nor do you know exactly what goes on behind closed doors even if you know them socially.  I can point to many examples of that too.

As for the church - perhaps the church community that respects them is limited to those who think the levels of control or "sheltering" as described on the family website and in that horrible manual are, if not normal, perhaps even optimal?  

Perhaps our insider can talk about that.

I mean, apparently the Duggars think that the sexual abuse of minors and incest are common.  Perhaps in the circles they run in.  

The Maxwells preach the kind of "sheltering" and information restriction the Stockdales apparently practiced.   Goodness knows whether this family also used those lovely "Christian" Pearl methods.   I sincerely hope not.

There can also be a level of denial and a knee-jerk reaction from any community when tragedies like this happen.  Oh no!  That family is a good "Christian" family.  They go to our church!  They seemed so happy.  A bit quirky and strict, perhaps, but so nice! 

People defended Larry and Carri Williams, after all.  Such a nice homeschooling family and Dad had a good job.  It was wonderful that they adopted those special needs children.  They were such disobedient children though - no wonder they had to be disciplined so strictly.

I quote Judge Susan Cook from that terrible case.  My bolding:

 "The Williamses’ track record is this: one child dead, one with PTSD, and seven who think the kind of degrading treatment the other two endured was acceptable."  

RIP sweet Hana Alemu.  

[December]

8 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

You aren't going to get to know a family by watching them perform bluegrass music in public.  Nor do you know exactly what goes on behind closed doors even if you know them socially.

This. You just never know the full story of a family's life unless you're a member of the household. It doesn't matter whether the family is religious/secular, close-knit/distant, big/small, etc. Sometimes even close friends and relatives don't have all the details. This isn't to say every family harbors some terrible secret; it just means you never have the full picture unless you live it. 

[Palimpsest]

2 minutes ago, December said:

You just never know the full story of a family's life unless you're a member of the household.

Actually, not even then.  Speaking generally about domestic abuse and not about the Stockdales specifically:

Even a member of the nuclear family may not experience the abuse or witness it.  Or, like the Williams children, they may see the abuse of a family scapegoat as "acceptable" or even "normal."

I spent too long working in Protective Services.

[hoipolloi]

Thank you, @Palimpsest and others, for responding so articulately to @really rookie.

S/he may well have a different view of the Stockdale family based on his/her experiences with them and the context of those experiences but that does not negate many of the red flags a number of us see in this tragic situation.

I hope @really rookie comes back to elucidate us but, if not -- and that's his/her choice -- continued discussion by FJ of the publicly available data on this case is hardly inappropriate.

[December]

3 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Even a member of the nuclear family may not experience the abuse or witness it.  Or, like the Williams children, they may see the abuse of a family scapegoat as "acceptable" or even "normal."

Thanks for making those important clarifications. Just goes to show how much can be concealed from people outside the home, when you can make people experiencing/witnessing abuse firsthand believe it is normal, warranted, and not "really" abusive behavior(s). 

[CrazyLurkerLady]

I can speak from personal experience that most people don't know what's going on. I typed out a long reply, but my computer glitched and it vanished, so here's the short version. Lots of childhood abuse, moving every time someone reported the screaming, and to this day even most close family doesn't believe me when I talk about it. My mom has spent many years characterizing me as a trouble-making liar so no one will listen to me. Most won't even speak to me anymore. A high school friend once told me she was jealous of me because my family was so happy and nice. She was SHOCKED when I told her the truth.

There is just no way to know. 

[HarryPotterFan]

30 minutes ago, CrazyLurkerLady said:

My mom has spent many years characterizing me as a trouble-making liar so no one will listen to me. 

I'm sorry you had to grow up like that. And that sounds like something my friend's mother would say. She's well respected, and I spent many nights in high school sleeping over at this friend's house. I never knew went on behind closed doors until my friend told me.

[PopRox]

@CrazyLurkerLady, I'm SO sorry you went through that. Wishing you healing and solace.

[CrazyLurkerLady]

2 minutes ago, PopRox said:

@CrazyLurkerLady, I'm SO sorry you went through that. Wishing you healing and solace.

Thank you. I cut off contact with my parents 6 years ago and pretty much everyone else but my siblings have dropped off one by one. Their loss, I'm awesome. ;-)

I have made the conscious decision NOT to repeat the way I was raised. My children deserve so, so much better.

[Grimalkin]

On 7/6/2017 at 4:05 PM, really rookie said:

Such indignation over an inaccurate narrative.

Ask any of the other 400-500 some people at their public memorial service whether they were isolated.

The sons credit their mother's careful tutelage for their ability to achieve some of their life goals.

Their public statements aren't crafted to give critics fodder for microanalysis. They chose to include people they don't even know with info about the most gut wrenching personal tragedy most of us will never face.

If indeed this was a horrific brush with mental illness (not determined at this time), this would not be the first such story. Such sickness of mind can and does affect people from all walks of life and can strike on a time table none of us can even foresee.

It is obvious the posters in this thread do not know this family personally. I do. 

 

 

 

 

     No, we don't know this family. We speculate, pick apart, discuss, try to learn, and snark on many families. We try to make sense of things we cannot understand. I think it's important to note that FJ does not endorse or encourage any official contact  with these families. For the most part they have to seek us out to know what we say. We can only go by what information given us. Your insight is greatly welcomed. It's completely understandable if you don't want to participate too.

[Grimalkin]

I also wanted to add my well wishes to @CrazyLurkerLady. I am glad you are on a journey to recovery.

lastly, I wanted to add my experience with psychosis. Not mine but my mother's to be exact. She already had dimentia and had open heart surgery. She completely flipped out in the ICU convinced she was in a lab somewhere. I wanted to vomit when I first saw it because i thought it was her dimentia and that it had progressed rapidly, and might live in terror for the rest of her life, and I signed off on the surgery, and really didn't feel good about it because I as worried the recovery would progress her dimentia. The nurse said it might be ICU psychosis and might be temporary. Luckily it was. I would get calls at three am from my mom because she was terrified. She thought I was an actor posing as her daughter too. Looking back on it, an ICU room looks very different than a normal hospital room so it makes sense.

      So the lesson here is that there is such a thing as ICU psychosis in case you have a loved one in the ICU.

[PennySycamore]

@CrazyLurkerLady,  I am so, so sorry that you went through that abuse.

According to my mom's youngest sister, one of their older brothers and his wife were very abusive toward their children.   Their son cut off all contact with the family once he got old enough to leave home.  I think his sister doesn't even know where he is.  

[JesusCampSongs]

On 7/7/2017 at 9:11 PM, CrazyLurkerLady said:

I can speak from personal experience that most people don't know what's going on. I typed out a long reply, but my computer glitched and it vanished, so here's the short version. Lots of childhood abuse, moving every time someone reported the screaming, and to this day even most close family doesn't believe me when I talk about it. My mom has spent many years characterizing me as a trouble-making liar so no one will listen to me.

I had a similar experience, only my parents broke up when I was four (short version: my mother spirited my younger sister and me across state lines and filed for divorce, and as it was the 80's, there was nothing my dad could do about it). My dad's family never really liked her and that stunt made them loathe her, so they have always been supportive of my decision to not have her in my life. 

People who are not my dad's family, who have either not witnessed her crazy or are related to her and are therefore crazy themselves, are far less understanding. My mother comes off very well; she is beautiful, funny, and charming, so people are easily enchanted by her. She's also possessive, controlling, vindictive, and deeply emotionally abusive, but the only people who see that side of her are her siblings, children, and significant others. Everyone else just sees her good side, and are confused as to why I refuse to have anything to do with her. 

Edited to add: and I don't think many suspected her of the level of abuse she put me through as a child and teenager because she came off so well and had so thoroughly terrified my sister and me of telling anyone what our home life was like. And, on the surface, my sister and I were basically perfect children: respectful, obedient, studious overachievers who went to good colleges and have good careers. Neither one of us is very open about how our mother is; my sister lives in denial and I don't want to deal with getting guilted or interrogated about how nice my mom is and why I'm a bad person for cutting her out of my life. 

[livinginthelight]

I think part of the issue in this denial is that each of us desperately wants to believe that it's always possible to recognize bad people by looking at them. I'd love to believe I will always be attuned to people who are dangerous or unstable. I could always be safe, and I could keep my children safe. So, in this case, the narrative might be, "Kathryn Stockdale was a wonderful mother. I know this to be true, because I would have recognized it if she weren't. I don't understand the killing. But she was definitely a good and well-loved mother. I can't question this because then I will start having all kinds of doubts about who to trust. And my world can't handle this."

As a mental health professional, I'd love to believe I have special radar. While it's true that I can pick up dynamics that others miss, I truly can't always tell. I didn't see it coming when an acquaintance murdered a friend of mine. He seemed like a normal guy to me. And just this week, a client brought in a picture of his sexually and physically abusive, sociopathic mother who fooled everyone. Looking at that picture, looking into her eyes, all I could see was a friendly, nice woman.

You can't always tell. Which makes the world a scarier place than if we could. But we can't.

 

[hoipolloi]

9 minutes ago, livinginthelight said:

I think part of the issue in this denial is that each of us desperately wants to believe that it's always possible to recognize bad people by looking at them.

Absolutely spot on. This is likely a part of @really rookie's pushback against the discussion here. 

[Vex]

Nobody is snarking on this family. People are engaging in reasonable speculation based on readily-available information and personal experience with similarly restrictive fundies. Even if really rookie thought they knew the family well, they were never inside the family and have no ideas what skeletons might be in their closet. It's not unreasonable to think that an overbearing parent (and I'm sorry but based on her own words the mother was overbearing and scheduled and controlled them to an incredible degree) might have something to do with the crime, especially when that parent was targeted for death by one of their children.

 

I think people have been incredibly understanding and kind towards Jacob. It could be that he's mentally ill and his upbringing has nothing to do with the crime he committed, but if you examine similar cases there is a formula that emerges, one where the children of overbearing parents snap (whether due in part to mental illness or not).
Personally, I feel that people wanting the death penalty in this case are being unfair to Jacob, who clearly needs help he was not getting.

[adidas]

Has there been an update on Jacob's condition?

[hoipolloi]

8 hours ago, adidas said:

Has there been an update on Jacob's condition?

This article appeared over 2 weeks ago but it sounds as though he's expected to recover though it will take quite a while. 

[Walking Cat Bed]

Just because a conversation is happening on a "snark" forum does not make that conversation snark.

 

 

[Hane]

On 7/7/2017 at 9:11 PM, CrazyLurkerLady said:

I can speak from personal experience that most people don't know what's going on. .. Lots of childhood abuse, moving every time someone reported the screaming, and to this day even most close family doesn't believe me when I talk about it. My mom has spent many years characterizing me as a trouble-making liar so no one will listen to me. Most won't even speak to me anymore. A high school friend once told me she was jealous of me because my family was so happy and nice. She was SHOCKED when I told her the truth.

There is just no way to know. 

Yep. Everyone thought my mother was WONDERFUL because she could be very kind and charming when it suited her.  Meanwhile, she put my middle sister through a lifetime of physical and emotional abuse, which haunts my sister into her senior years.  I was the "good one" who alternately struggled to make my sister behave and served as Mom's lieutenant.  We walked on eggs almost every day because we never knew what might set Mom off. The worst crime in our family was inconveniencing Mom. If she was in a good mood, we could get away with minor things. If she was in a bad mood, nobody dared sneeze crooked. 

She even emotionally bullied our father. 

But outside the family everybody thought she was a wonderful wife and mother. God forgive me, but family life has been much easier since she died.