Stockdale family murders

[NachosFlandersStyle]

I withdrew from college halfway through, because if I took voluntary leave before my failing grades for that semester were registered, I would still have the option to return to the school later. I was in the middle of a major depressive episode and my cumulative GPA was a 1.2. Thank God I wasn't raised in this family, because my parents were entirely supportive and allowed me to move back in. I spent a year getting back on my feet and taking CC classes before returning to the university. I never got my GPA up to a "respectable" level (once you've got those failing grades on your record, even a few semesters of straight As won't do much to your cumulative average). But I did graduate, and that's what matters. An incomplete college degree is a terrible financial burden for most people, while my C average degree has served me fine so far.

And while it's taken me a long time to come around to this view, I'm kind of glad I went through that failure. Humility, flexibility, knowing when to ask for help-- those are valuable lessons that have served me better than much of the information I learned in the classroom.

[pook]

@NachosFlandersStyle I dropped out of Uni for the same reason (depression) and went back 3 years later and eventually graduated.  Cheers to us xoxo.  We should celebrate.  I'll bring the Canadian beer and you can bring the nachos.

 

[VVV]

6 hours ago, Themanda Duggar said:

What if the first shot he fired was an accident, and the second was a panicked attempt to hide what he'd done?  I keep thinking that he started to call 911, maybe to report a shooting by an intruder, and then realized there was someone else in the house and freaked out.  

I would bet money that those boys grew up handling firearms. An accidental shot seems extremely unlikely.

[Seahorse Wrangler]

11 hours ago, Gobsmacked said:

Same here in the UK. Apprenticeship places are hard to find. Not enough places, fill up very quickly. Young people who don't want to take an academic route struggle with zero hour contracts and next to no training available. 

My generation had those places stolen by the abomination that was the YTS.

 

 

[Carol]

Do you have room for a 3rd at your party?  I dropped out after a year in college and returned 17 years later for a degree.  Kudos to those of us who persisted!

I'll bring Dungeness crab cakes and a great Oregon Pinot Noir.

[Curious]

On 6/17/2017 at 10:12 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

It's just interesting to me that although Jacob was an amazing fiddler, that was about all that was going on with his life. His older brothers went to college and got married. His younger brother was going to college and may have had a girlfriend. Why didn't Jacob go to college? Why wasn't he dating or married?

Just decided to read this thread today. Kind of wish I hadn't, tbh.  That manual was 10 levels full of crazy.  Just the cod liver oil every night would be enough to send me right over the edge.  They were already apparently eating a diet relatively high in fish, based on her recipes and the paragraph where she talked about what they buy from the grocery store.

Wiki says this about cod liver oil: 

Quote

Per tablespoon (13.6 g), cod liver oil contains 136% of the established daily tolerable upper intake level (UL) for preformed vitamin A

Vit A is stored in the liver and can have toxic effects at high levels, which these kids were almost certainly getting.

The one good thing I can say about this family, is that they don't seem to have been ones that were beating the kids for every drop of a raisin.  Their punishments seemed to be having the little bit of rewards they could earn taken away.

I wonder if Jacob fell into the "caretaker" role because he wasn't as outgoing or something as the other 3 kids.  By all accounts, he was an amazing fiddle player, something that he could be proud of all on his own because even with lessons if you don't have the talent and desire, you won't be good at it.

I wonder if he felt like he was going to be the one growing old, taking care of the farm and eventually his parents and that just got to be too much for him.  It's too bad he shot his little brother along with his mom (who I also am having trouble finding sympathy for), but he must have felt like he had no other choice.

[Curious]

On 6/18/2017 at 3:50 PM, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

a blueberry mustard drink

I think this might be because of a typo.  If you read the rest of that meal, it makes sense for the mustard to go with the entree (based on other meals that had similar offerings) and then just have a blueberry drink.  I am guessing she left out a comma as her use of them seems inconsistent in the manual.

However, she did appear to be quite crazy so I also wouldn't say she was above a blueberry mustard drink.

[Curious]

On 6/18/2017 at 10:24 PM, Howl said:

I also hate fj'ers arguing* and down voting.  I don't think I've ever down voted someone and this is a good reminder to myself not to do so, no matter what. 

*not directed at anyone in particular; it makes me uncomfortable in general 

I know some members don't like the downvoting system and I understand that.  However, I think it has done a pretty good job of stopping 10 pages of "I'm rubber and you're glue" that we used to have when people disagreed about something.  Now a few people comment, but the majority downvote and move along.   I much prefer that to slogging through pages and pages of stuff that we have to closely monitor, but I admit that is a selfish reason (for our all volunteer moderation staff)

[socalrules]

I wonder if Jacob, or his brothers, even liked playing music or their debate class. They had to they had to pay for everything themselves but the manual makes it seem as though it was required by the parents, not necessarily something they wanted to do. Jacob may be great with a fiddle but we don't know if it was something he even wanted to do. For all we know, the band was just another way for the family to make money. 

[Howl]

11 hours ago, Curious said:

I know some members don't like the downvoting system and I understand that.  However, I think it has done a pretty good job of stopping 10 pages of "I'm rubber and you're glue" that we used to have when people disagreed about something.  Now a few people comment, but the majority downvote and move along.   I much prefer that to slogging through pages and pages of stuff that we have to closely monitor, but I admit that is a selfish reason (for our all volunteer moderation staff)

Good points about the down-voting option. 

[pook]

18 hours ago, Carol said:

Do you have room for a 3rd at your party?  I dropped out after a year in college and returned 17 years later for a degree.  Kudos to those of us who persisted!

I'll bring Dungeness crab cakes and a great Oregon Pinot Noir.

You had me at crab cakes!

[Ozlsn]

Such a sad story, I really feel for the other brothers and the father. And for the residents of the county actually - 6 shooting deaths in four days is appalling, and would affect so many people.

One thing that did occur to me was that Jacob was right in the peak age for the onset of mental illness. I am **NOT** saying that mental illness causes someone to commit murder (mentally ill people are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators), but I did wonder if it could be a contributing factor on top of the home environment. If you don't feel you can ask for help because you're afraid, for example, then that is not a good place to be in to start with.

[JMarie]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 4:33 PM, NachosFlandersStyle said:

I withdrew from college halfway through, because if I took voluntary leave before my failing grades for that semester were registered, I would still have the option to return to the school later. I was in the middle of a major depressive episode and my cumulative GPA was a 1.2. Thank God I wasn't raised in this family, because my parents were entirely supportive and allowed me to move back in. I spent a year getting back on my feet and taking CC classes before returning to the university. I never got my GPA up to a "respectable" level (once you've got those failing grades on your record, even a few semesters of straight As won't do much to your cumulative average). But I did graduate, and that's what matters. An incomplete college degree is a terrible financial burden for most people, while my C average degree has served me fine so far.

And while it's taken me a long time to come around to this view, I'm kind of glad I went through that failure. Humility, flexibility, knowing when to ask for help-- those are valuable lessons that have served me better than much of the information I learned in the classroom.

When I was at community college, I took a summer class.  On the first day, we had to go around the room and introduce ourselves.  One of my classmates, who was a year out of high school, said he went to an out of state college for the past fall semester, and a different out of state college for the past spring semester, but wasn't sure if he would be allowed back to the second college.  The instructor asked him why not, and he said he had a 0.92 GPA there.  His mom had signed him up for four summer classes (two for each of two sessions).  Looking back, I don't think his heart was in it, and he wasn't at all embarrassed about his GPA.

[Howl]

13 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

One thing that did occur to me was that Jacob was right in the peak age for the onset of mental illness.

Very good point.

[Curious]

I was a first try college drop out, as well.  I started when I was 18 and my heart really wasn't in it.  I ended up withdrawing from classes before they counted them on your gpa.  My mom had forced me to take CLEP tests the summer I graduated and I did get something like 12 or 16 hours from that.  I tried again a little while later because my (ex)husband worked at the college, so I got super reduced rates for classes.  I ended up getting pregnant and dropping classes because I had all day morning sickness and walking into a room with 20 different perfumes and aftershaves made me start chain gagging.

I ended up going to a small, private college that had a large number of "non-traditional" students when I was 24.  The second quarter I got pregnant (because FSM has a sense of humor apparently), but I was not as sensitive to smells and classes tended to be very small, so I was able to tough it out and graduated when I was 26.  My CLEP credits transferred so I was able to skip a lot of the entry level stuff and the college gave credits for "life experience" (I think they called it something else), so I wasn't forced to take the classes that introduce freshmen to college life and lower level classes like that.

I graduated with a job waiting for me based on my internship and about 2 years later I was disabled. 

[Snarkle Motion]

On 6/25/2017 at 8:36 PM, Ozlsn said:

Such a sad story, I really feel for the other brothers and the father. And for the residents of the county actually - 6 shooting deaths in four days is appalling, and would affect so many people.

One thing that did occur to me was that Jacob was right in the peak age for the onset of mental illness. I am **NOT** saying that mental illness causes someone to commit murder (mentally ill people are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators), but I did wonder if it could be a contributing factor on top of the home environment. If you don't feel you can ask for help because you're afraid, for example, then that is not a good place to be in to start with.

Good points. You are right that stigma makes people fear mental illness, and mentally people are not more likely than others to be violent. But certain types of untreated mental illness are associated with homicide risk. Suicide is the much greater risk. In general, drug/alcohol use is associated with way more violent behavior than mental illness but mental illness is still something that can contribute to homicidal actions.

The family may not have believed in treating mental illness. And the easy access to weapons is a high risk factor. It only takes a moment of not being in your right mind. 

[Black Aliss]

On 6/24/2017 at 9:11 PM, Carol said:

Do you have room for a 3rd at your party?  I dropped out after a year in college and returned 17 years later for a degree.  Kudos to those of us who persisted!

I'll bring Dungeness crab cakes and a great Oregon Pinot Noir.

Flunked out multiple times between age 17 and 19, finally started fresh in my late 30's and got my degree in a field that didn't even exist the first time around. I'll bring some nice sockeye fillets for the grill, and some Washington Pinot to compare with Carol's.

On 6/25/2017 at 8:46 PM, JMarie said:

One of my classmates, who was a year out of high school, said he went to an out of state college for the past fall semester, and a different out of state college for the past spring semester, but wasn't sure if he would be allowed back to the second college.  The instructor asked him why not, and he said he had a 0.92 GPA there.

One quarter my first year I had a 0.2 GPA.

[closetcagebaby]

Seeing all you guys who "flunked" out after dealing with mental illness and are now leading awesome & fulfilling lives is giving me a ton of hope for my future. THANK YOU ALL.

[Aine]

I withdrew from my first semester of university much to everyone's shock as I'd been dux/valedictorian of my high school. I was only 17 at the time that I started so my Dad and I easily passed it off to others that I just wanted to take some time to "mature". In actual fact, I was horribly depressed and suicidal and needed to be treated for major depression and generalized anxiety disorder. After that, I saved up and traveled for a year and then went back 2 years after high school. I needed to take a break in that second time when the depression got really bad again. 

I'm now in a very competitive PhD program in psychology and when I got very unwell about 18 months ago, my advisor sent me to someone he knew and trusted for pro bono treatment. Finally I was diagnosed with PTSD (with depression and anxiety symptoms being secondary to that) and have been getting treatment for a year now and have never been more productive or mentally healthy. As a clinician myself now, it really drives home the need for comprehensive assessment instead of just listening to the patient's diagnosis of themselves. Everyone in my life told me I had depression, every doctor and practitioner just listened to that, and later many of them told me that depression often reoccurs (which *is* true) and that I'd just have to learn to manage it. Not once did anyone ask me about a history of trauma (for me, severe and prolonged childhood abuse) or the presence of PTSD symptoms such as nightmares and flashbacks. Even as a psychologist myself, they had always just been so apart of my life that I never gave them a second thought except when they got really bad and lost me sleep. Turns out, when you don't sleep, you get depressed lol. 

Anyway...a few goes and breaks helped me a lot to be successful in college. I would never have achieved the things I have if I'd pushed through and tried to keep going. 

[Black Aliss]

On 6/24/2017 at 9:56 PM, Curious said:

I think this might be because of a typo.  If you read the rest of that meal, it makes sense for the mustard to go with the entree (based on other meals that had similar offerings) and then just have a blueberry drink.  I am guessing she left out a comma as her use of them seems inconsistent in the manual.

However, she did appear to be quite crazy so I also wouldn't say she was above a blueberry mustard drink.

I just figured she was using mustard greens the way some people put kale and spinach into their smoothies.

[Vex]

 I'm studying criminology at uni (which I am currently taking a break from because of health issues) and my experience studying similar cases gives me some thoughts on the issue.

I just want to preface this whole post with this: very few details have been released. All of this is speculation based on what can be gleaned from the details we do have.

- There was no evidence of Jacob looking to get away with the crime.

This is significant. We haven't heard anything about trying to clean up or pack his bags and run. This is why I believe James' death was planned rather than a hasty act to cover his tracks when the 911 call happened. The boys were taught to believe that innocence leads to heaven and sin leads to hell. Jacob might have thought he was helping his brother, leading him to heaven so he didn't have to deal with their mother's murder. He certainly believed he was going to hell for what he did, and tried to kill himself anyway.
 

- He isn't a family annihilator

Family annihilators fit a very distinct pattern. They are domineering and narcissistic individuals who would rather kill their entire families than have their circumstances changed by divorce, or by losing their good reputation, or by a crime they committed.

That's really all I can say with any surety. He maybe had mental illness, he maybe snapped, he maybe just hated his mother and killed his brother in a panic. Anything is possible.

As for the chicken incident, I know exactly what he meant. He just meant the chicken wasn't quite dead yet.
I used to work at a place that killed mice to feed snakes. I have had pet mice in the past and hated how they didn't check to make sure the mice were killed cleanly, so even though it made me sick to see it I'd sit with them while they killed them, pointing out the ones that weren't quite dead so they could be put out of their misery. I really think he was just pointing out it wasn't quite dead.

 

[BirdgirlH]

Thanks for that insightful post[mention=11541]Vex[/mention], great to hear from someone who has some professional experience with criminology!

- I agree with the chicken incident as well. Apparently they'd been butchering chickens their whole life so it would be a quite normal scenario for Jacob and he was just pointing out it wasn't dead yet. (NB I'm a vegetarian myself but I have high respect for those who hunt or butcher for their food consumption and deal with the whole process, rather than just buying a vacuum-packed piece of meat at the supermarket)

 

Good reminder that there are very few facts available! I'm still confused about James though, and that you think his murder was premeditated and that he was doing it so he would go to heaven and not have to deal with the fact that his brother killed his mother. I guess that line of thinking is just very foreign to me ....

 

[Howl]

Quote

@Vex said: Jacob might have thought he was helping his brother, leading him to heaven so he didn't have to deal with their mother's murder. He certainly believed he was going to hell for what he did, and tried to kill himself anyway.

This takes me back to Andrea Yates, who after she killed her children, told investigators that

Quote

because she was such a bad mother she had doomed her young to eternal damnation. The only way to save them, she said, was to kill them.

 

[Vex]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

This takes me back to Andrea Yates, who after she killed her children, told investigators that because she was such a bad mother she had doomed her young to eternal damnation. The only way to save them, she said, was to kill them.

 

Yes, this seems to definitely be reminiscent of Andrea Yates at the moment. It's certainly not uncommon for siblings who murder their families including their siblings to claim that they thought it was kinder to kill them than leave them adrift in the world without their parent/s, or that they wanted them to go to heaven as a family unit, or that they thought they were saving them. It can be genuine and it can be an excuse. In Andrea's case I believe her. There was a case with a minor girl known as J.R. who colluded with her much older boyfriend to kill her parents so they could be together. They wound up murdering her little brother too and her excuse was that he was too emotionally fragile to survive without them. In that case based on her profile I believe it was just a lie and they wanted to dispose of him as a witness.

I can't help but wonder what would have happened if the police hadn't been called. It would have shed a lot of light on his thinking.

In that scenario, if he had still murdered his little brother you could reasonably assume his motivation was to not leave his brother alone in that abusive environment.

It would have been more telling still if he had tried to kill himself immediately after, or if he had waited for his father to come home so he could kill him too.

The reason that would be revealing is that if he only wanted to kill his mother, it would be reasonable to think he wanted her dead because he saw her as a captor/abuser and snapped or felt the need to retaliate.

If he had waited for his dad to come home and killed him too his motivation would have been harder to parse, since it seemed like mum was the controlling one and dad was just along for the ride. If he had done this, I would think that he probably acted out of anger and that it was a crime of impulse (even though he'd have had time to think it through). If it had just been the mother and brother, I'd be more inclined to think it was an act of desperation because he felt it was the only way to escape.

Again, pure speculation based on my knowledge of similar cases. I take criminal psych but it's not my major area of study.

[guitar_villain]

On 6/27/2017 at 2:12 PM, Black Aliss said:

Flunked out multiple times between age 17 and 19, finally started fresh in my late 30's and got my degree in a field that didn't even exist the first time around. I'll bring some nice sockeye fillets for the grill, and some Washington Pinot to compare with Carol's.

One quarter my first year I had a 0.2 GPA.

One of my freshman hall mates had a 0.2. He's now the VP for risk management at an airline.

I don't know what happened to the guy who got a 0.0.  He transferred to another school and I think graduated normally.