Stockdale family murders

[Coy Koi]

1 minute ago, TatiFish9 said:

If we understand why people kill out of impulse or conditioning then we should also understand why they commit other crimes. I know all crimes are not committed equal, but taking someone's life's is huge even when it's done within reason.  In this thread, I saw a lot of upbringing referencing that I do not see considered with other criminals. There are people with worse childhoods than this guy

How often do we hear of a crime where there is almost NO current information about the offender, but there is a readily-available detailed manual of child abuse written by his victim/mother? We just have no idea about Jacob. He could just be a sociopath. Or he could be a person who tried his best to do right, but snapped in a major, horrific way after a lifetime of mental torture. (Or something in between.)

If he's a sociopath (and I'm not at all assuming that he is) then I'm very sad about the abuse that most likely turned him into one, but I'm ready to wash my hands of him, lock his ass up forever, and just minimize the harm he can do to others. If it's a more complex case, my reaction to it is also more complex. But none of us really know. In many other cases, we have a different set of information available. If the only thing I knew about Josh Duggar was that he molested some children years ago when he was 14-15 and that his parents followed the horrific ATI "literature" on the subject, I wouldn't know what to think of him either. But because every other thing I know about him points to him just being a piece of shit, I'm fully comfortable writing him off as a piece of shit. I have NO idea what he would have been like if he'd had decent parents, but at a certain point it just doesn't really matter anymore. I don't know if Jacob is at that point or not because I KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT HIM, not because of any double standard.

[HarleyQuinn]

Reading this schedule is awful. I'd snap too (if that's what caused it, of course)

Why the brother though? That keeps sticking with me.

 

[BirdgirlH]

1 minute ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Why the brother though? That keeps sticking with me.

 

I have been thinking about that too. Maybe he got in the way, maybe he tried to stop him?

[BirdgirlH]

Maybe he was the one calling 911?

[livinginthelight]

I'm wondering if Jacob got into an argument with the mom and the younger brother stepped in to defend her? Especially if - as someone posited upthread - Jacob was the one who Mom had picked to dig her claws the deepest, and Jacob resented his younger brother for beginning to break free.

 

[kacarlton]

 I think that is overlooked a lot by people saying he knew no better.  If he didn't, he wouldn't have planned out his attacks to try to not get caught.  This makes me empathize less for him.

Regarding randy Yates, I totally agree. And by the math I did at the time of the murders, at least one of those babies was conceived when she would not have been competent to give consent to sex. In my book, he is the worst of the worst.

[Snarkle Motion]

On 6/18/2017 at 7:24 PM, Howl said:

Googled a bit and read an article about teens who murder their parents.  For almost all of the kids who were not considered sociopaths, there were multiple common factors.  The factors they had in common that could be relevant here were social isolation, a sense that there were simply no other options and emotional/physical/sexual abuse.  Granted, this kid was in his early 20s so no longer a teen, but the factors could apply.  A surprising number of the kids couldn't totally remember the murder, had not planned it out and apparently, just couldn't take it anymore.

I'm convinced "anger blackouts" are a real thing. I think they are more common in younger kids with tantrums and less common as the brain develops. But teens I work with would also describe them. I used to not believe it but too many kids and teens have described this experience, with similar features, that I now think it's real.

They can feel it "starting" or escalating but they get to a certain point and literally do not know what is going on with their bodies during the tantrum/anger. Trauma history has a lot to do with it but not always. They can sometimes recognize their triggers and can stop themselves or walk away before a certain point but it seems like once they hit "blackout" mode they have completely dissociated and may not know what they are doing. It's a scary thing for the person and their family. Children hopefully grow out of it but we had kids who would scream for hours and be dead in their eyes and parents talk about them running into traffic and being unresponsive to any sort of verbal communication. You'd never know what would set them off or what would snap them out of it. And we worked with teens who described being highly embarrassed after episodes, seeing their rooms completely trashed or hearing about their aggressive actions from family members. And you could tell the teens were scared about the experience. Descriptions from some of these teens started to convince me this was a real thing that they really don't remember their actions or have full control when in a highly upset/angry state of mind.

I doubt this was the case for this young man, he likely knew what he was doing but was acting impulsively. I just know that I was at first skeptical hearing about kids and teens who couldn't remember episodes of aggression and have now come to believe it to be a real phenomenon, although probably more likely in children and trauma victims. 

[BirdgirlH]

How frightening @Snarkle Motion

[hoipolloi]

We may not be the only ones with concerns over Mr. & Mrs. Stockdale's child-rearing program. From a comment on the Red Bridge Bluegrass FB page:

Quote

This is so so sad. I realize their unreasonable demand of no outside interaction must've been very hard, I don't know the reason for the murder yet, but at that age why wouldn't he just pack his stuff and leave. I don't mean to be judge mental either but what in the world would push a seemingly good kid so far that murder seemed the thing to do. I don't understand but this family is in my prayers. God be with them.

 

[BirdgirlH]

There was a comment from someone who knew them under this article: http://thecount.com/2017/06/15/jacob-stockdale-james-kathy-murder-suicide-stockdale-family-band-update/

"This is outdated and very inaccurate. Those boys had more interactions and social skills than most people their age. They were definitely NOT prisons in their homes and made many, many trips and vacations by themselves, without their parents. They were very well-adjusted young men and I will miss them all greatly."

- it's true that most of the quotes refer to comments/the manual from the wife swapping show (10 years ago?). But, as someone pointed out, there is little other information. Perhaps those rigid rules have been loosened, who knows? The youngest brother seems to have had a girlfriend.

But the manual certainly remains chilling, and would have shaped them. And even if they had more freedom now - the damage was done. Makes me think of the Pearls and blanket training - once they have been trained (and the mother certainly references training a lot) you don't need to watch them anymore. 

[amendgitan]

2 hours ago, BirdgirlH said:

Maybe he was the one calling 911?

Like hiding in a back room or something? 

[BirdgirlH]

6 minutes ago, amendgitan said:

Like hiding in a back room or something? 

Perhaps? Or even in front of him? So hard to picture what would have went down ...  one of them must have called 911, and somehow I can't imagine it was the mother. 

[BirdgirlH]

Blessedlittleblog has a post up about it!

[BirdgirlH]

She refers to a very interesting article in Psychology Today - "Why Kids kill Parents"

[CrazyMumma]

people can just snap mentally one day... my grandma was a crazy controlling person... my uncle mentally snapped and is a schizophrenic.  Two other siblings didn't become schizophrenic....

[BirdgirlH]

On 18/06/2017 at 3:08 PM, Jug Band Baby said:

My husband is trying to track it down.  If he can find it, I'll share it.

I found a little intro clip by googling Wife Swap: Stockdales

[laPapessaGiovanna]

13 hours ago, amendgitan said:

In this young man's case there may be evidence that he lost his mind and snapped. His family's lifestyle suggests that to many of us. 

So I am more than sympathetic. I am convinced his parents' treatment of him is a mitigating circumstance and any comparison to those criminals and sexist pigs like Josh Duggar, Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard, all of whom appear to have had their faculties when they assaulted people or in Doug and Josh's cases, hypocritically cheated on their wives, is illogical. 

As much as we may despise him Josh Duggar isn't a criminal since being a cheater, an asshole and a cult member isn't a crime.

Regarding the other two I agree that they are despicable people and criminals BUT they haven't killed anybody NOR (that I know of) caused anybody's death. 

Imho a better analogy would be with Michael Pearl. Technically he never murdered anybody but his vicious, monstruous and thoroughly evil teachings probably were the concurring cause in the death of more than one child. Same with Ezzo.

Moreover, I haven't seen evidence of Jacob Stockdale snapping, I haven't seen evidence of anything regarding the murders actually. The wife swap manual is evidence of an awful parenting method and a miserable upbringing 10 years ago but it's no evidence of how and why the murders happened now. For all we know he may have planned his mother's murder and his own suicide over all those years of isolation, cod liver oil and gum strips, but his plans got thwarted by his brother trying to defend his mom. Or he may have snapped and when he realised what he did he tried to kill himself. The thing is that we.don't.know. Nonetheless he has my sympathy for having been the victim of abuse, as for the rest that's what inquiries and courts are for. I don't need to justify my sympathy or lack of it as long as I am not the one who will decide his fate,but I have found this discussion very interesting.

[Howl]

 Sheriff: Jacob Stockdale shot himself as deputies arrived   He shot himself as he was standing just inside the door as police arrived.  Also, he's apparently still alive.  I haven't seen any followup that he has died in the hospital. 

Quote

Calvin Stockdale, the eldest brother, also issued a statement Friday regarding his late brother, James: “James, our youngest brother, has always been a catalyst of family fun. Aside from being a gifted musician, James enjoyed dancing and had an innate love of people. James was working on a business degree and hoped to go into the business side of entertainment. He leaves behind many friends and a family that love him dearly.”

Although the situations are certainly not analogous, this made me think back to the 2013 Nehemiah Griego murders in Albuquerque.  Nehemiah was 15 when he shot and killed his mother, 3 siblings (9-year-old brother and two sisters, ages 5 and 2) and then waited up for hours for his father to return home from work and shot and killed him as he arrived at home.  At a hearing earlier in the year,

Quote

Defense attorneys’ case presented a narrative of a teen who grew up in a chaotic environment, enduring emotional abuse by his mother and physical abuse at the hands of his father that likely led to a traumatic brain injury.

N.M. teen who killed family cleared for early release

And yes, the parents were what I would call main-stream fundy and attended Calvary Church, an Albuquerque megachurch where his father had been a pastor.  Homeschool?  Check.  Parents respected members of the church community? Check.  Socially isolated except for church?  Check!  The dad had a rough background as a gang member and maybe ex-con who had a conversion experience and had worked in ministry for 12 years.  For people who knew the kid, there were zero red flags, although 

Quote

Now 18, Griego has undergone nearly two years of therapy at a state adolescent treatment center — where his teachers, psychiatrists and others say he has made significant progress after being diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder and some learning disabilities.

Had this kid been in a regular school environment instead of being home-schooled and socially isolated except for church, perhaps his psychological issues would have been diagnosed.  Who knows?  Another odd fact: his "girldriend" was 12 years old and they exchanged sexual texts after the murders. 

 However, this caught my eye (from the same article quoted above). 

Quote

A residential supervisor at Sequoyah Lodge, where Griego is undergoing treatment, said the 18-year-old had matured into a role model for other troubled boys, while one teacher described the teen as a thoughtful student despite having expressed racist viewpoints, a fascination with war and Nazi Germany, and the notion of absolute power.

Oy! 

So back to the Stockdale murders.  When the mom is crazy/emotionally abusive/rididly controlling and there is social isolation, how much worse that must be for the kids.  There is literally no escape. 

I was also thinking that in a rigidly structured environment like the Stockdale home, control must certainly extend to a child's emotional life.  I'm guessing that at no point in the life of the Stockdale boys was there EVER any opportunity for expressing a genuine feeling that was not the party line.  None. Zero.  Let's say one child is emotionally rebellious, and another mom's favorite, I can imagine a toxic stew simmering for a long, long time. 

[closetcagebaby]

9 hours ago, BirdgirlH said:

I have been thinking about that too. Maybe he got in the way, maybe he tried to stop him?

I was thinking that, or that he didn't want to leave his brother "alone" with her because the other two brothers lived out of the house. When you're in the mindset that allows you to kill, I don't think your critical thinking skills are too sharp. He may have believed he was saving his brother. 

[Snarkle Motion]

My previous job involved doing evaluations with kids in a treatment facility and there were more teens then you'd think with homicidal ideation and psychosis.  Like true "walls are bleeding blood, voices in my head are telling me to kill my family" psychosis. This improved dramatically with the right medications. People would think some of these teens were on drugs but they would be sober - or one kid only started drugs to tune out the voices and the violent images. Clearly this is not common but also not unheard of.

It makes me wonder why this family felt the need to move away from "bad influences," keep strict schedules, and adhere to certain diets. Was mental illness something they experienced in the family and thought they were coping with properly? Is that why Jacob was the only one who hadn't moved away or attended college? We may be demonizing the mother, but in reality she may have been attempting to deal with her sons mental illness in a way she thought was being helpful - through diet, religion, scheduling, and "protection" from negative influences. 

[calvinball]

Re: the Wife Swap manuals - I'm sure it won't come as a shock to anyone that Wife Swap, like almost all reality shows, are edited to hell and back. A common complaint from various participants is that Wife Swap has a particular narrative/focus they want to push and everything else falls by the wayside. (e.g. "Oh, we want a fundy isolated family, seeing these kids participate in outside activities with peers their age doesn't fit with the theme of the show~") Parents have reported being threatened (?) by producers if they protest a particular storyline. 

IIRC, the moms do not write the manuals themselves. So even though it looks like Kathy Stockdale might have been running the show and that Tim was only along for the ride, we really have no idea how much of a participant he was. 

That said, I think it's still obvious that the Stockdales weren't normal regardless. Even if Wife Swap edited a lot of shit, it's clear that they still exercised a level of control over the boys that most non-fundy families don't. 

Anyway, Laurie Tonkovic, the mother who swapped with the Stockdales, has chimed in: http://www.tmz.com/2017/06/19/wife-swap-family-murder-other-mother/ . Her comment about Jacob:

"When I switched the rules and I was going to let them have fun, have the television and video games and experience life a little bit, he ran outside crying. And when I went out after him, I asked him what was wrong, and he said that his mom and dad tell him that basically he would ‘burn in hell."

[Howl]

38 minutes ago, calvinball said:

Anyway, Laurie Tonkovic, the mother who swapped with the Stockdales, has chimed in: http://www.tmz.com/2017/06/19/wife-swap-family-murder-other-mother/ . Her comment about Jacob:

"When I switched the rules and I was going to let them have fun, have the television and video games and experience life a little bit, he ran outside crying. And when I went out after him, I asked him what was wrong, and he said that his mom and dad tell him that basically he would ‘burn in hell."

This gives me goosebumps, and not in a good way. 

[Maxwell]

 

3 hours ago, calvinball said:

"When I switched the rules and I was going to let them have fun, have the television and video games and experience life a little bit, he ran outside crying. And when I went out after him, I asked him what was wrong, and he said that his mom and dad tell him that basically he would ‘burn in hell."

Why would a family that believes that TV and video games will lead the destruction of the souls of their children even be involved in a TV show called "Wife Swap"?  I just don't get it.

I suppose that it's possible that Dad & Mom said, "We don't do TV/Video games because they contain many things we see as immoral and wish to avoid." which may then have interpreted by that child as, "TV & Video games will make me burn in HELL!!"

 

[Cleopatra7]

5 minutes ago, Maxwell said:

 

Why would a family that believes that TV and video games will lead the destruction of the souls of their children even be involved in a TV show called "Wife Swap"?  I just don't get it.

 

It's possible the Stocktons took the Duggar view and saw being on TV as a "ministry" or a useful way to advertise their beliefs on child rearing and life to the godless masses.

[Carol]

On 6/18/2017 at 7:24 PM, Howl said:

Googled a bit and read an article about teens who murder their parents.  For almost all of the kids who were not considered sociopaths, there were multiple common factors.  The factors they had in common that could be relevant here were social isolation, a sense that there were simply no other options and emotional/physical/sexual abuse.  Granted, this kid was in his early 20s so no longer a teen, but the factors could apply.  A surprising number of the kids couldn't totally remember the murder, had not planned it out and apparently, just couldn't take it anymore.

When I worked as a counselor in a D & A treatment center I treated a 16 year old boy who murdered his step father.  He said he did it because his step father had been physically abusing his mother for years and he had no other way to stop it.  He went on a hunting trip with his step father and murdered him while they were camping.  Then he called the police and turned himself in.

I remember having sympathy for him but there was a part of me that thought he gave off vibes of, "don't fuck with me", so I didn't.  He was very emotionally shut down, struggled to make eye contact with anyone and isolated himself in the treatment community.  He clearly needed 1-1 counseling on a more intensive scale than I could provide in group therapy.

I don't know what happened to him after he left treatment.  I recommended long term therapy but he was part of the legal system and I doubt they provided it.  TBH, I'm not sure he was chemically dependent.

The upshot of this is that I believed when he said why he killed his step father.  And I had little sympathy for his step father.  Now that I am older and more mature in my thinking,  I understand the reality is that he took a life.

His was a story complicated by emotional and physical abuse.  Some people break under these circumstances.