JinJer: Now with Social Media

[MadeItOut]

7 hours ago, Lyle Lanley said:

Maybe at least she will read books outside of the Gothard approved world now.

Ooo now there's something constructive we could do - an outside of Gothard book list! There's no way she's not at very least kept up to speed on this place. Something might tickle her fancy.

 

I'd nominate everything by Jostein Gaarder, starting with 'Sophie's World' and 'The Christmas Mystery'.

[JesusCampSongs]

2 hours ago, mlsgregg said:

 Is Jeremy a fundy? I read his church's statement of beliefs and it seemed pretty standard, conservative, Reformed stuff to me. I wouldn't go to that church because I believe women can preach and people have free will and other "liberal" things, but nothing came off as over-the-top to me. Has he made some statements or something? Or is it just the fact that he knew Ben before meeting Jinger? Like I said above, I don't watch the show so I'm not up on everything.

I don't think so. His views are pretty mainstream in the neo-Calvinist side of evangelical Christianity. I was raised Southern Baptist, and he hasn't said anything that's made me think, "WHOA THERE." Just the usual. "Oh, yay, another sexist, homophobic neo-Calvinist who thinks you can hate people into salvation " It's depressing, but I wouldn't consider him an extremist. 

I posted my perspective on the differences between Conservative Christians (based on my experiences growing up in SBC-affiliated churches) vs. Gothardite fundies in a Bates thread a while ago. I'm putting it behind a spoiler tag to save space. 

Spoiler

Things Conservative Christians (SBC) and Fundies have in common: They both:

• prefer "literal" translations of the Bible (which they then follow selectively).
• think that it is appropriate to mix politics and religion (in the vein of coercing others into following their beliefs).
• disagree with most "socially liberal" political causes, such as reproductive rights, LGBT rights, racial justice, etc. and like things like conversion therapy and crisis pregnancy centers..
• ostracize LGBT people
• believe in young earth creationism (for the most part) and are not fans of environmentalism (though this is changing somewhat; a lot of SB's I know have changed their tune on this issue over the years).
• share the view that prayer can cure mental illnesses (though CC's are more willing to seek secular help and will often go to Christian counselors who have actual degrees).
• strongly support rigid gender roles (at least in theory) and the idea of The Man being in charge.
• do not support premarital sex or cohabitation.
• over-value female purity, have really unfortunate ideas about rape and sexual assault, and are prone to victim-blaming.
• consistently vote Republican/Constitution Party
• bar women from being ministers or having leadership positions in the church.
• endorse problematic child-rearing practices (though CC's are more fans of Dobson and less the Pearls...still not great, though). 

Things Conservative Christians and Fundies do not have in common: CC's (SBC) not:

• take a hard-line stance against birth control. In the churches I grew up in, it was considered irresponsible to have more children than you could afford to care for. Most families I knew only had 2-3 kids. 
• bar women from working outside the home outright. There's a lot of lip service about how being a SAHM is the highest calling or whatever, but most of the moms I knew growing up had jobs, and this continues to be the case.
• totally oppose secular education, nor do they  consistently endorse homeschooling. Many of the churches I attended didn't support homeschooling because "it makes kids weird." Private Christian schools were the preferred choice, but were not mandatory at all. 
• prohibit dating, though there's a wide range of what individual families would and would not allow their kids to do. My parents were comparatively permissive (I could not attend parties unless they knew the other kids' parents well, but I could go to some parties and I was allowed to be with boys unsupervised once they met my mother). Others barely let their kids leave the house without a chaperone. Either way, courtship was not really a thing-- even though I Kissed Dating Goodbye and True Love Waits were really popular when I was in high school, participation wasn't mandatory and most kids dated normally. The same is generally true today (my dad is the youth Sunday School teacher). 
• ban girls from attending college. They usually encourage it (as a means to meet husbands, but also insurance in case they do not meet a husband). They do tend to prefer their kids attend Christian colleges, though. Military service is also promoted if college isn't a good option (for both sexes). 
• expect their unmarried adult children to live with their parents until marriage. Premarital cohabitation is discouraged (but is not a dealbreaker per se), but living alone or with a (preferably same-sex) roommate is totally fine. 
• require modest dress. It was sort of frowned upon to wear short skirts and the like to church (and there was shaming involved that I experienced a few times) but I was never expected to don a frumper, and anyone who did would have been considered really weird. There's also no preferred hairstyle as far as I have experienced.
• shun people who have premarital sex. It's frowned upon, but it wouldn't get you sent to Jesus Jail or anything. Unless you were having gay premarital sex, which is a whole other story. 
• totally condemn divorce. It's definitely not encouraged at all and some individuals/congregations can be really nasty to divorced people, but divorce is so ridiculously common in evangelical circles that most large churches have post-divorce ministries, materials, etc. Remarriage is also pretty common in the churches I grew up in. 

I guess the key here is that fundies and conservative Christians hold a lot of the same ideological beliefs, but CC's are a lot more flexible about those beliefs in practice. 

 

[MadeItOut]

5 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

Yeah, she'll start religious, but she can venture out to fiction! Books are such a blissful escape. This is wonderful for Jinger, the ability to explore different viewpoints and fantasy. I am very happy for her.

Even while staying within Christian writings there's a lot of stuff that will blur that line with secular literature. Suppose she reads one book every two-three weeks (seems reasonable given their apparent pace of life), if she only read 'Wind In The Willows', and all seven 'Chronicles of Narnia', she could round it out with something like 'Shadowlands' and that would get her pretty much to the end of this year.

[SassyPants]

The Dullards left for Scary America in July 2015, were back twice in August (wedding, boards)  where home all of September and October...was Jeremy not on any of the Duggar mission trips to Danger America (aka vacations to visit the Dullards)? Didn't Jinjer meet and get to know one another on a Danger Mission Trip?

 

[SilverBeach]

5 hours ago, Dutchie said:

For me, it is about countering the perfect happy live every body posts about. It annoys me and I get really rebellious when annoyed, which results in behaving in the opposite direction. I do not think I'm hurting anybody with it so yeah. Additionally, I never lie, I just post things that can be interpreted in multiple ways. 

I still don't get it, but OK. It's not about hurting anybody, it just seems like a waste of time to play games like this, but I'm straightforward like that. I would think you are "friends" with the people you post with, so why intentionally obfuscate what's really going on with you?

To each their own, but this type of nonsense is just another reason that I find FB annoying in general. Have at it.

[mlsgregg]

30 minutes ago, JesusCampSongs said:

I don't think so. His views are pretty mainstream in the neo-Calvinist side of evangelical Christianity. I was raised Southern Baptist, and he hasn't said anything that's made me think, "WHOA THERE." Just the usual. "Oh, yay, another sexist, homophobic neo-Calvinist who thinks you can hate people into salvation :2wankers:" It's depressing, but I wouldn't consider him an extremist.  
 

"I Kissed Dating Goodbye." What a dumb book.

I think a big difference between the fundamentalist and the average, conservative Christian comes down to the drive to "Christianize" society. I have my convictions, and even agree with some if the things on your list, but I don't expect the world at large to share those convictions. Most if the people I know who are Christians, wherever they fall on the spectrum of belief, understand that. Fundies seem to want to force society to live as they live, whether society wants to or not.

 

[MadeItOut]

Inquisitr, horrid rag that it is, strikes again from this thread: http://www.inquisitr.com/4255568/jinger-duggar-fans-fear-for-her-safety-after-she-shares-instagram-photo-of-robbery-aftermath/

I'll admit it, I'm stuck between 'how the Hel can journos of all people understand that people's words are to be at least respected and not deliberately misquoted and slightly sad for the sap that's doing the writing (no byline again that I can see. Even more points for cowardice!).

Mostly though, I'm fighting down the frightened. These people have a surprisingly huge amount of 'fans' to draw on. Enough that it smacks of 'cruel and unusual' that they're so often deliberately and knowingly misrepresenting words and thoughts mined from this safe space for those of us concerned with and against such clear abuse of religious privilege (second or third time this week?) that it's now difficult to tell is it an outsider or not.

[season of life]

I saw this thread was hot and rushed over immediately. No pregnancy announcements, just some lively discussion! 

[16strong]

Is it possible that the Dillards tried to grift money from Jeremy's church (possibly without asking Jeremy first) and he was NOT amused?

[nastyhobbitses]

49 minutes ago, MadeItOut said:

Ooo now there's something constructive we could do - an outside of Gothard book list! There's no way she's not at very least kept up to speed on this place. Something might tickle her fancy.

 

I'd nominate everything by Jostein Gaarder, starting with 'Sophie's World' and 'The Christmas Mystery'.

I would nominate The Handmaid's Tale and anything by Toni Morrison, but that might be a little much for her at this juncture. Baby steps. So I nominate Ella Enchanted, Pride and Prejudice, The Joy Luck Club, and the short story Sultana's Dream: all books that feature empowered, interesting, and diverse female characters who forge their own paths in life, and/or must deal with the strictures of their culture and society. I'm sure Jinger would be able to relate.

[Bad Wolf]

I would like to see her read some children's books, to catch up on her childhood. Beverly Cleary's Ramona would be fun and let her see that normal children's books are not of the devil.

[Lulu22du]

Is it possible that the Dillards tried to grift money from Jeremy's church (possibly without asking Jeremy first) and he was NOT amused?

Maybe? It's possible that Derik might just feel envious/intimidated of Jeremy which resulted in Derik being cold towards him. I could totally see Derik feeling super insecure about himself. Ben and Jeremy are close because they are similar in some ways. Both love sports and live an active lifestyle. Also Ben isn't bad looking. Derik on the other hand didn't play sports (was a mascot) and he obviously lacks big time in the looks department. I'm sure Derik feels out of place when he's around Ben and Jeremy.
We are all for sure over analyzing this, but it's still fun. Haha.
I wonder if the Duggars know about this forum?

[FleeJanaFree]

I'd love for Jinger to read a great book that she could still understand at her likely lowered level of reading (let's be real, with a Duggar education, girlfriend will not understand or appreciate Jane Austen's work) . I read To Kill a Mockinbird when I was 14 and still consider that a favorite. For the love of Rufus, may Someone introduce this book to her! A great book on tolerance and personal responsibility that's easy to read.

[MadeItOut]

22 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

: all books that feature empowered, interesting, and diverse female characters who forge their own paths in life, and/or must deal with the strictures of their culture and society. I'm sure Jinger would be able to relate.

Ooo that reminds me of 'The Red Tent' by Anita Diamant. IMHO that one should be required reading for everyone.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

47 minutes ago, Lulu22du said:

I wonder if the Duggars know about this forum?

They actually mentioned us in their recent legal filing, so we can finally say for certain that they do know about us.

[Henk12]

I've never read I Kissed Dating Goodbye but I dated a fundie light guy who did and he got even crazier after reading it. I think courting in general is toxic so I kind of wish that book would disappear haha

I think marriage has been good for Jinger. She will probably always have some awful opinions but I see such a change in her. I never realized how stressed Jinger and her siblings looked until I finally saw one relax a bit. It's so sad.

[mlsgregg]

Books I'd like to see Jinger read:

"The Hunger Games" trilogy (either you love it or you don't. I loved it).

"Foundations of Wesleyan-Arminan Theology" by Mildred Bangs-Wynkoop (because women can do theology).

"50 Women Every Christian Should Know" by Michelle DeRusha (fascinating stuff).

"Murder on the Orient Express" by Agatha Christie (because "zee little grey cells!")

"Pride and Prejudice" or anything else by Jane Austen (because it's Jane Austen).

"The Joys of Motherhood" by Buchi Emecheta (such an interesting read).

"Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep/Blade Runner" by Phillip K. Dick (because weird).

I could go on...

[fluffernutter]

36 minutes ago, MadeItOut said:

Ooo that reminds me of 'The Red Tent' by Anita Diamant. IMHO that one should be required reading for everyone.

Was just going to say The Red Tent. What an awesome book.

[nst]

Ok Books I want Jinger to read

Absence of Angels - Elizabeth Glazer - her struggle with her and her kids contracting AIDS and her starting the  Pediatric Aids foundation 

The Pulitzer Prize - Roxanne Pulitzer - the shame she felt after leaving her husband who was older

Confessions of a Shopholic - Sophie Kinsella - silly fluff novel 

Joyce Maynard - At home in the world - her relationship with JD salinger when he was in his 50s and she was 18 and how he dominated her

The Outsiders - SE Hinton - hello - 

One flew over a cuckoos nest - hello 

[HideousGreenShirt]

His Dark Materials trilogy. It's exciting-but-tame-enough fiction and suitable for her reading level. One of the books addresses "God" in an interesting way. 

Any NatGeo book, hopefully one with early man/evolution/dinosaurs. 

A Mills and Boon novel, preferably one featuring a young pastor.  

Eta: "The Pastor's Woman" seems like an excellent M&B choice! 

 

Spoiler

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Pastor_s_Woman_Mills_Boon_Kimani.html?id=IczvAgAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en

 

[mlsgregg]

19 minutes ago, nst said:

The Outsiders - SE Hinton

Yes! Such a good book. Oooo, other YA ones she should read:

"Roll of Thunder Hear my Cry" by Taylor

"In my Father's House" by Rinaldi

"Wolf by the Ears" by Rinaldi

And if we can throw other forms of entertainment in here, wouldn't it be amazing if she listened to the "Hamilton" soundtrack?

[meowfundiecatz]

I think (as a fundie myself) the best way to "explain" Jeremy is he would be VF royalty if that still existed. Sure, women can wear pants, read, maybe even like Christian rap (a la Ben), whatever. But deep down he is still a fundie.

[bella8050]

2 hours ago, Taylurker said:

Jinger seems a lot more "Free" to me ever since she met Jeremy. They actually fully hugged each other like normal people do before marriage. And in the first seven months of her marriage, she has seemed even more normal! No doubt to the two of them already setting boundaries with the family, which is a vital milestone. We wanted to free Jinger, and I think she finally is. She and Jeremy may be conservative Christians, but that's okay. It's a huge upgrade for her and I'm very happy for the girl. She needs normalcy in her life. She has a smart husband who is his own person and who has actually lived a life before marrying and that is important. I think these two will make great strides together. In time, we'll see what happens, but I am feeling optimistic. And I'm glad to see that Jinger has a newfound love for books and has branched out in her clothing choices. Little things like that eventually add up and make all the difference.

Also, their wedding was beautiful and classy. I love her gown. Just had to throw that in there lol.

I feel optimistic about them as well. Reserving further judgement till the next season of the show but so far I like what I see. Unlike the rest of the courting couples I believe they really did set their own courtship rules.  It seemed like JB was absent from a lot of their meetings - I would have loved to see his reaction to some of the things from when Jinger went to Texas to visit that Michelle saw but didn't say anything at least not in that moment. Very different than Jill and Derick getting scolded cause they dared to "front hug". Part of me would have loved to have seen what would have happened if JB tried to sit in between J&J like he did to J&D in Nepal. 

Also being optimistic that maybe that caption Jinger made on IG was just her trying to be cute or witty and doesn't realize how else it could have been taken.  I also think there's still hope of her really learning to love non Bible reading even if she started doing it just because Jeremy does and wants to fit in with him or make him happy. When I was in HS I tried to make myself "better" to get the attention of a guy and it was months before I realized I should try to be better for myself not just for a guy. 

[KnittingOwl]

On 5/28/2017 at 9:05 AM, singsingsing said:

I used to hear about possible alternatives to Facebook, but I never hear about those anymore. 

KnittingHusband used to work at Facebook. Zuckerberg expects something to come along and replace Facebook at some point. Technology moves quickly. At some point, FB will be too corporate to keep up with the "hip" thing and the next thing will take off. 

[Markie]

Jinger comes from such a huge family that I'm sure Jeremy had to listen to stories about the siblings and connect the dots to get to know them. I can see that stories about Jill would include lots of tattle telling, because the siblings have all said that, and I bet she told a lot on both Jessa and  Jinger. So, Jeremy may have met Jill with the thought, "that's Jill, the tattle tell crybaby." I can't imagine meeting Derrick was all that wonderful. Early impressions are sometimes hard to change. 

Oh well, Jinger's family is huge. There will be some you like, some you don't and others you don't mind chatting with but just aren't kindred spirits. I think the Dillard's might be the latter, whereas I can't imagine Jeremy likes Josh at all.