Duggars by the Dozen- Part 23: Even more Duggary

[eveandadam]

Just now, alba said:

I love this kind of thing,@eveandadam !

One thing I'd add about Smith is that it's also very, very common in Lowland Scotland, so a family with the surname Smith wouldn't necessarily have an English background.

With English I meant the language, not the country :-) But thank you so much for the regional aspect, yay, I love this stuff, too.

2 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

@eveandadam do you also do meanings of names? I've been trying to do some genealogy and can't seem to get very far. It seems the names that I'm looking for are rather rare. 

I can only give you the definate meanings of German last names but not all of them, of course (because that's my native language) and maybe the French ones. What kind of last names do you mean?

[feministxtian]

6 minutes ago, eveandadam said:

With English I meant the language, not the country :-) But thank you so much for the regional aspect, yay, I love this stuff, too.

I can only give you the definate meanings of German last names but not all of them, of course (because that's my native language) and maybe the French ones. What kind of last names do you mean?

German and Spanish last names. I can PM them to you because if someone finds out my maiden name, it's way too easy to find me.

[eveandadam]

2 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

German and Spanish last names. I can PM them to you because if someone finds out my maiden name, it's way too easy to find me.

Ok , sure! I'd love to help with that, you can PM me. I can definitely try to help you with the German names , with Spanish I only have basic training, sorry.

But there is no guarantee. You always have to check a second source at least. I tried to do this with my own last name once and two completely different origines came up.

[feministxtian]

I sort of know what part of Germany my father's family is from. With my mother's family, I can only guess. 

[alba]

With English I meant the language, not the country :-) But thank you so much for the regional aspect, yay, I love this stuff, too.

Fair enough, although I'm pretty sure the use of the name Smith in Scotland predates the use of English here, so it's presumably the Scots word as well.

This arguably DOES make it ultimately English, as both Scots and English are descendants of the Middle English of Chaucer's time, but that depends on whom you ask . Until the 17th or 18th century Scots was the dominant language of the Lowlands. Like other mutually-intelligible languages, like Swedish/Danish or Serbian/Croatian, there are a lot of similarities, but things like orthography and syntax/grammar differ, although the line between Scots language and Scots dialects is challenging as it's not been a standardised language spoken by anyone but the working classes for centuries, so there are a LOT of regional differences.

Anyway, that's all off-topic, but I'm a total nerd and I can't NOT talk about this stuff when it comes up

[eveandadam]

2 minutes ago, alba said:

 

Fair enough, although I'm pretty sure the use of the name Smith in Scotland predates the use of English here, so it's presumably the Scots word as well.

This arguably DOES make it ultimately English, as both Scots and English are descendants of the Middle English of Chaucer's time, but that depends on whom you ask . Until the 17th or 18th century Scots was the dominant language of the Lowlands. Like other mutually-intelligible languages, like Swedish/Danish or Serbian/Croatian, there are a lot of similarities, but things like orthography and syntax/grammar differ, although the line between Scots language and Scots dialects is challenging as it's not been a standardised language spoken by anyone but the working classes for centuries, so there are a LOT of regional differences.

Anyway, that's all off-topic, but I'm a total nerd and I can't NOT talk about this stuff when it comes up

This is so interesting!!! Are you form Scottland and can you speak Scottish or a dialect?

About Smith being a Scottish word. That is very interesting, too. Smith is one of those words I would have put my hand in fire if I have had to bet on that it is of Germanic language origin. In the German language there are so many people with the last name of Schmidt/Schmitt/Schmith. It's one of the most common last names, here. And the meaning is the same as the English (or Scottish ?) Smith, like in Goldsmith, the person who works with metal to produce weapons or jewellery e.g. And since German and English are Germanic languages, but Scottish is a Celtic language (is it? could I be wrong?) I thought Smith and Schmidt has the same origin?

[Kittikatz]

Prior to the rennaisance, many people in Europe outside the great houses didn't have or use family names, or if they did, the names were generally more descriptive of place of origin (i.e. Dahl, Beck, Hills), some element of genealogy (i.e. Johannsdottir) or based on a character trait (i.e Fromm - honourable) physical aspect (I.e. Schwartz) or profession (I.e. Baker). They were also quite mutable and could shift between generations or as people moved and changed professions.

My understanding is that Smith originated as a trade name that was used to denote people who worked in a metal smithy. Schmidt (and the variants) have the same meaning and were given in the same way. The plain Smith/Schmidt name usually, but not always, denoted blacksmiths, while other sorts of metal smiths would sometimes have a prefix attached to the name. Hence Goldsmith, Silversmith etc. It seems not uncommon for certain trade names to have spread across much of Europe, often evolving in spelling and pronunciation as they went. Kaplan is a good example of this. It originally denoted people belonging to rabbinical families and morphed to become a common surname for those who were called as Catholic priests or somehow related to priests. This surname can be found from Russia all the way into western France and even the UK. Odds are good that all of these various Kaplans had some sort of ansestor involved in religious work.

[alba]

This is so interesting!!! Are you form Scottland and can you speak Scottish or a dialect?
About Smith being a Scottish word. That is very interesting, too. Smith is one of those words I would have put my hand in fire if I have had to bet on that it is of Germanic language origin. In the German language there are so many people with the last name of Schmidt/Schmitt/Schmith. It's one of the most common last names, here. And the meaning is the same as the English (or Scottish ?) Smith, like in Goldsmith, the person who works with metal to produce weapons or jewellery e.g. And since German and English are Germanic languages, but Scottish is a Celtic language (is it? could I be wrong?) I thought Smith and Schmidt has the same origin?

Nope, Scots is a Germanic language/dialect, similar to English. Scottish Gaelic is a Celtic language; historically, Scots was spoken in the Lowlands and Gaelic in the Highlands, though these days most people's first language is English.

Something like Robbie Burns' poetry is a good example of Scots:

O Tam! had'st thou but been sae wise, 
As taen thy ain wife Kate's advice! 
She tauld thee weel thou was a skellum, 
A blethering, blustering, drunken blellum; 
That frae November till October, 
Ae market-day thou was nae sober; 
That ilka melder, wi the miller, 
Thou sat as lang as thou had siller; 
That every naig was ca'd a shoe on, 
The smith and thee gat roaring fou on; 
That at the Lord's house, even on Sunday, 
Thou drank wi Kirkton Jean till Monday. 
She prophesied that late or soon, 
Thou would be found deep drown'd in Doon; 
Or catch'd wi warlocks in the mirk, 
By Alloway's auld haunted kirk.

An example of Scottish Gaelic, on the other hand, would be a phrase like "Ciamar a tha thu", which means "How are you?' I only know a few phrases of Gaelic as I don't live where it's spoken.

[Kittikatz]

@eveandadam I believe that Keilen is Celtic for thin or fair

[eveandadam]

42 minutes ago, Kittikatz said:

@eveandadam I believe that Keilen is Celtic for thin or fair

thank you so much , wow they have a lot of Celtic names in fundie circles, hehe

46 minutes ago, alba said:

 

Nope, Scots is a Germanic language/dialect, similar to English. Scottish Gaelic is a Celtic language; historically, Scots was spoken in the Lowlands and Gaelic in the Highlands, though these days most people's first language is English.

Something like Robbie Burns' poetry is a good example of Scots:



An example of Scottish Gaelic, on the other hand, would be a phrase like "Ciamar a tha thu", which means "How are you?' I only know a few phrases of Gaelic as I don't live where it's spoken.

Wow, I didn't know there is English, Scottish and Scottish Gaelic. I always thought Scottish = Scottish Gaelic and a Celtic language. Very cool, thanks for clarifying this.

[halcionne]

@eveandadam Kelly Jo's maiden name was Callaham.

[Kittikatz]

Further adding to all this fun with names and name origins, names were frequently changed accidentally or deliberately in the process of Europeans moving to the Americas. In the very early days, literacy was poor and spelling morphed in some creative ways, I later years, immigration staff often misspelled or got surnames of immigrants completely wrong. For example, in the early 1900s Canada immigration asked people "what are you called?" When collecting surnames. The way this was translated into Ukrainian was "what is your work?", So there are quite a few people of Ukrainian ancestry who have last names that mean 'Farmer' or 'Carpenter' in Ukrainian. Profession based names were unusual in Ukraine, so some of these names exist only in Canada. 

My maternal family's last name is not an easy one to pronounce for most English speakers, so it got utterly mangled by immigration in Halifax. It also exists only in Canada, and anyone with the name is almost certainly related, came over on the same boat, and got renamed by the same immigration officer. 

This was pretty common, and generally went unchallenged as most immigrants were not in a position to argue with the people issuing them their paperwork.

Also, some people too immigration as an opportunity to completely reinvent themselves by simply giving the immigration officer the wrong name. Identity documents were few and far between, so if you said your name was Smith, they generally believed you. A friend's father fled Europe after WWII and was so sure that the Nazis were going to come back and find him (he had been in the Polish resistance and was quite infamous) that he lied to immigration about his name, age and country of origin. His family only found out years after he died. My father also fled Europe and decided to shave 12 years off of his age, and neglected to mention that he was married. FSM knows why. His Canadian identity documents have a different year of birth from those I found from his home country. 

it makes genealogy research quite vexing at times....

[marmalade]

And now for something completely different: What's Jim Bob up to? The new church for Jeremy that we all predicted?

 

[Gillyweed]

28 minutes ago, marmalade said:

And now for something completely different: What's Jim Bob up to? The new church for Jeremy that we all predicted?

 

I hope not. Even if they live in Texas for a year, Jinger will (hopefully) grow so much

[SportsgalAnnie]

2 hours ago, Gillyweed said:

I hope not. Even if they live in Texas for a year, Jinger will (hopefully) grow so much

Or a more permanent house for Jessa, Jill or *shudders* Josh 

[CorruptionInc.]

His name is spelt JaSIN - oh JB you can't use him, he's named sin after all!

[Mela99]

Maybe it's an extension for the Forsyth's ? Or a church for Benny Boy

[grandmadugger]

5 hours ago, marmalade said:

And now for something completely different: What's Jim Bob up to? The new church for Jeremy that we all predicted?

 

Hmm is this guy in the Larado area?  I looked on FB but didn't find these pictures but the one I did find with the same name was in NWA. I can't see Jer leaving his church so soon. 

[CorruptionInc.]

25 minutes ago, grandmadugger said:

Hmm is this guy in the Larado area?  I looked on FB but didn't find these pictures but the one I did find with the same name was in NWA. I can't see Jer leaving his church so soon. 

We would hope he would stay in Texas, but JB is very good at turning Son in laws into his slaves.

ETA: They do say house in the post, so probably Pimp Daddy JB just expanding the empire.

[grandmadugger]

5 minutes ago, CorruptionInc. said:

We would hope he would stay in Texas, but JB is very good at turning Son in laws into his slaves.

ETA: They do say house in the post, so probably Pimp Daddy JB just expanding the empire.

I have such high hopes for Jeremy not bowing to JB. Of course I had the same hopes for Derek and we see how that went. 

[kunoichi66]

On 27/11/2016 at 8:42 AM, eveandadam said:

Sorry, this is going to be a total rant and I didn't know where to put this. But as a linguist and language nerd I've been wanting to do this post for a very long time: the last names are as interesting to me as the first names they give to their children because it says a lot about where the male line of the family comes from. So here it goes: I want to list all the Duggars and Bates inlaws last names and the language (and probably country) they originated from. I didn't look any of these up so, please, correct me if you have a different opinion or know I'm wrong:

Last name - language

-------------------------

Duggar - English (maybe French, but if French then definitely Old French because the spelling today would be different)

Ruark - Celtic language (Irish (Ireland), Scottish (Scottland) or Breton (France))

Keller - German

Dillard - French (could be English, too, if you count the Normans that invaded England around 900 - 1000 - 1100 ( ? ) and who brought the French language count as English)

Seewald - German

Vuolo - Italian

Waller - could be either English or German (both are possible 50 : 50)

Forsyth - Celtic language, probably Welsh, Scottish or Irish

-----------------------------------

Bates - English

Perkins - English

Paine - English or French (if it is English I would have expected the spelling to be Payne with a y, like in the English Hayter (Charles Hayter, Jane Austen), so probably French

Smith - English

Webster - English or German are both possible, but this is probably English (because of the dictionary?)

Keilen - this one is interesting: it looks German but definitely doesn't have a German ring to it, it is not a typical ending for German last names. I'd rather go with a mix of a celtic language like Welsh, Scottish or Irish and a Germanic language like English (maybe even Danish or Dutch). Anyone here who knows this last name and can definitely say what language it origantes from?

 

 

I would be very glad if someone could help me with the Celtic languages, anyone here by chance? And what was Kelly Bates last name before marriage?

 

Forsyth is Scottish - it's a clan name.  There is a possibility that it was translated from Gaelic, but that is not attested.

18 hours ago, halcionne said:

@eveandadam Kelly Jo's maiden name was Callaham.

That is very close to a name in my family o.0

If it's the same origin, then it should be Irish...

[nastyhobbitses]

5 hours ago, CorruptionInc. said:

We would hope he would stay in Texas, but JB is very good at turning Son in laws into his slaves.

ETA: They do say house in the post, so probably Pimp Daddy JB just expanding the empire.

Maybe now that Joshley has to stay in AR on a tight leash and has the most kids, and Jessa has her eye on a bigger house, Golden Child Jill is getting shuffled into a nice new fancy place so she won't go back to Scary Brown People Land. Maybe she can use it as her Totally Legit Midwifery Clinic.

[Flossie]

It does look like a church.  JB might want to start up his home church again, and now he has three sons in law who need something to do.  Well, Bin needs something to do that can be filmed, cleaning toilets for the camera just doesn't cut it.  

It would work out well. JB would be in control, since he built the church.  He'd have his hand in his kid's living arrangements, jobs, and salary.  He could even provide health insurance, and that would give him another measure of control as he sneaked peeks at what services his spawn were seeking from his hand picked 'allowed medical providers'.

Jeremy might be enticed to relocate if he can be the head pastor at the Church of Duggar.  Jinger wouldn't have any trouble being a pastors wife since she'd be related to the majority of the congregation, and she can be the official church photographer.  (They both can also be hired to work at weddings held at the church).

Bin can be junior pastor and he and Jessa can run the young adult bible study groups.  He can give the occasional sermon and do something for underprivleged youth now and again.

And the church could sponser Derick so JB can send Derick and Jill to a safe English speaking location for missionary work.  That way, the church could call them home whenever the Duggars want, or whenever Jill starts to get too lonely or scared.  If JB hires Derick to do the books, that would be another reason to call Derick home frequently.  If JB does it slowly, and in stages, he could tie Derick up to the point where Derick would be missionary to a group of heathens that live within an easy one hour drive from the TTH.  Derick can be appeased by running short two week missionary trips out of the country a couple times a year.

Anna can run the daycare group during services, and Josh can be the janitor.  Jana can be the church secretary, since she's got so much free time on her hands these days (/sarcasm).

JB and Michelle can wander in and do bible study with the married couples when they get bored, and lead away weekends at the place Joy is going to be living at when she gets married.  He can also make a litttle money renting the church out for heathen weddings.  JB can also use the church as a means to scope out potential partners for all his unmarried kidults.  

[JillyO]

On 27.11.2016 at 9:42 AM, eveandadam said:

Ruark - Celtic language (Irish (Ireland), Scottish (Scottland) or Breton (France))

I would be very glad if someone could help me with the Celtic languages, anyone here by chance? And what was Kelly Bates last name before marriage?

 

Michelle has said that her family's name was changed from O'Rourke to Ruark, so definitely Irish.

[purplepeony]

1 hour ago, Flossie said:

It does look like a church.  JB might want to start up his home church again, and now he has three sons in law who need something to do.  Well, Bin needs something to do that can be filmed, cleaning toilets for the camera just doesn't cut it.  

It would work out well. JB would be in control, since he built the church.  He'd have his hand in his kid's living arrangements, jobs, and salary.  He could even provide health insurance, and that would give him another measure of control as he sneaked peeks at what services his spawn were seeking from his hand picked 'allowed medical providers'.

Jeremy might be enticed to relocate if he can be the head pastor at the Church of Duggar.  Jinger wouldn't have any trouble being a pastors wife since she'd be related to the majority of the congregation, and she can be the official church photographer.  (They both can also be hired to work at weddings held at the church).

Bin can be junior pastor and he and Jessa can run the young adult bible study groups.  He can give the occasional sermon and do something for underprivleged youth now and again.

And the church could sponser Derick so JB can send Derick and Jill to a safe English speaking location for missionary work.  That way, the church could call them home whenever the Duggars want, or whenever Jill starts to get too lonely or scared.  If JB hires Derick to do the books, that would be another reason to call Derick home frequently.  If JB does it slowly, and in stages, he could tie Derick up to the point where Derick would be missionary to a group of heathens that live within an easy one hour drive from the TTH.  Derick can be appeased by running short two week missionary trips out of the country a couple times a year.

Anna can run the daycare group during services, and Josh can be the janitor.  Jana can be the church secretary, since she's got so much free time on her hands these days (/sarcasm).

JB and Michelle can wander in and do bible study with the married couples when they get bored, and lead away weekends at the place Joy is going to be living at when she gets married.  He can also make a litttle money renting the church out for heathen weddings.  JB can also use the church as a means to scope out potential partners for all his unmarried kidults.  

I was about to like this but couldn't bring myself too as it seems rather perfect for the duggars and is a scary prospect!