Tori Bates Courtship- Part 2

[amendgitan]

On June 11, 2016 at 3:30 PM, actuallyjessica said:

Blegh, can't wait. Not.

Exactly. Ben and Derick may not have come from severely restrictive households, but they're still towing JBs line.

IMO, it doesn't matter where someone has come from, it only matters where they're going.

Wait. Aren't Ben and Derick IFB? If so, they're already members of one of the scariest cults in America regardless if they're ATI, right? 

[amendgitan]

On June 11, 2016 at 3:51 PM, nelliebelle1197 said:

 It does. I take it you have never been directly exposed to the variety of fundie beliefs? Or even the variety of beliefs in conservative Christianity?  A very slight doctrinal difference is the difference between heaven and hell to many of these people. There is a small discussion of this in the most recent Staddon engagement thread and you might want to look it over. 

Jessa's marriage to a Calvinist like Ben is massive, and if any Duggar had a critical thinking brain cell, they'd know. And anyone who understands the doctrinal differences and the importance of doctrine knows it, too. It is certainly much more rebellious and paradigm shifting than Alyssa Bate's stupid jeans.

Yeah but shifting from one extremist fundie group to a similar one isn't really evidence of the development of critical thinking skills, is it? 

(Side question, what religious affiliation DO Ben and Derick have?) 

But the bottom line for me is despite eye-rolling, hair cuts, or pants-wearing, I think most of the kids from within these families are firmly ensconced in the culture and belief system with no real thought of straying.  I think it takes a very unique individual, a combination of various things including being super intelligent, different or desperate (like a gay kid or very independent female, or brilliant eccentric), to break free from these cultures. 

Because as abhorrent and scary and sad and abusive as we on the outside perceive it, they mostly don't. Even though it is abhorrent and scary and abusive. And that's because almost nothing is that black and white. Despite the terrible things within the culture,  there are also good times and there's laughter. Camaraderie. Praise. A sense of community and family and identity. It's not always dark and evil every second. 

And most important is that these people have a lot of social reinforcement and support within their communities and limited exposure to different ways of thought until they're fully conditioned themselves and unlikely to be swayed.

So it always surprises me how many people suggest there are signs some of these people might break free or even vary to any large degree from the gender discriminatory, homophobic, child thrashing sect they were raised in.  

[amendgitan]

On June 12, 2016 at 5:32 AM, formergothardite said:

I agree, I don't think Jill and Jessa think they are rebelling at all, my point in bringing that stuff up was that if you were going to take tiny, meaningless things and claim they are baby steps away from IBLP, Jill and Jessa have taken more of those steps. Jessa's husband is attempting to rap! Something she is been raised to see as straight up demonic and worshiping Satan! That is a bigger step than anything the Bates have done. Yet the Bates are the ones people like to declare are moving away from IBLP. 

The Bates having perky outgoing personalities means absolutely nothing in terms of them being less fundie or less involved in IBLP. 

I do think some of the Duggars are sort of lost and floundering at this moment because, since the time they were teenagers, reality television was their life and they probably thought it was going to continue that way. Now that being television stars has been taken away from them, they are going to have to figure out what they are going to do with their lives. And they probably will. Their lives have been turned upside down in the last year, I'm not surprised they are still trying to figure it all out. 

The Bateses are more likeable than the Duggars. They're warmer, seem more comfortable in their skin. The parents and children seem to have an easier relationship. The Duggars have always come across as more strained. Hell, the  Bates will even front hug a boyfriend or brother or female friend while the Duggars seem to think that leads immediately to fellatio. 

I think that's why people are more inclined to think the Bates kids might be more likely to stray from the sect. They seem more approachable so it makes the mind feel it's more possible. 

I mean I think more anti-fundie people would rather spend a day with the Bateses instead of the Duggars and might even be lulled into enjoying themselves and feeling this is all kind of normal, not even noticing that whenever little Jebbie is being led from the room when he sulks or acts out, to have "a little talk" with Dad or Erin, or whoever, he's actually being hit with a flexible piece of PVC or a little stick or something. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 hours ago, amendgitan said:

Yeah but shifting from one extremist fundie group to a similar one isn't really evidence of the development of critical thinking skills, is it? 

(Side question, what religious affiliation DO Ben and Derick have?) 

But the bottom line for me is despite eye-rolling, hair cuts, or pants-wearing, I think most of the kids from within these families are firmly ensconced in the culture and belief system with no real thought of straying.  I think it takes a very unique individual, a combination of various things including being super intelligent, different or desperate (like a gay kid or very independent female, or brilliant eccentric), to break free from these cultures. 

Because as abhorrent and scary and sad and abusive as we on the outside perceive it, they mostly don't. Even though it is abhorrent and scary and abusive. And that's because almost nothing is that black and white. Despite the terrible things within the culture,  there are also good times and there's laughter. Camaraderie. Praise. A sense of community and family and identity. It's not always dark and evil every second. 

And most important is that these people have a lot of social reinforcement and support within their communities and limited exposure to different ways of thought until they're fully conditioned themselves and unlikely to be swayed.

So it always surprises me how many people suggest there are signs some of these people might break free or even vary to any large degree from the gender discriminatory, homophobic, child thrashing sect they were raised in.  

I think I read on Recovering Grace that quite a few have eventually left as adults. So it seems possible that 1 of 19 kids will get out. And then a few others may follow. 

[OrchidBlossom]

On 6/13/2016 at 5:43 PM, Exjw2015deed said:

This a thousand. I realized that the moment when Jim bob said that Jessa can hold bens hand in prayer before they were married. Michelle's face!! Like she looked like she wanted to freak out on him that he would allow hand sex before engagement. This made me realize she may be the driving force because of her sinful cheerleading days. 

I think also because Jim bob was already moving up at that point politically, also he had a lot more money than Gil bates. Yes tlc helped a lot but he still had commercial real estate properties and a lot more financially stablility than Gil's grifting and doing tree jobs at that point with his young sons. I'm sure Gil couldn't do bigger jobs at that point so he seemed easier to control. 

Interesting, I actually took this in the exact opposite way. I firmly believe Jim Bob is the driving force behind their IBLP lifestyle. Not just because he is the one who "saved" Michelle to Jesus originally, although that doesn't hurt. Jim Bob is abusive. Maybe not physically (though I cringe every time the girls say he used to be quick to anger because I feel like it could be code for something) but emotionally. Michelle looks to me very much like an abused woman who is rationalizing it. I didn't take Michelle's face to be that of anger that they were holding hands, I took it to be the face of someone who has learned their abuser's triggers and was afraid of the consequence of setting one off. I have known women in emotionally abusive relationships and they get so used to their partner's triggers (or buttons, or whatever you want to call them) that they would aggressively police other people's behaviors because they were attempting to protect themselves (or the other person, and unfortunately often both).

Unfortunately I do not think we will ever know for sure, and either of us could be right. But Jim Bob has always set off my "abusive"-dar and many little things including what you referenced have enforced that for me. I don't know that I believe that Jim Bob really *believes* in the IBLP way of living, he very well may not. But I do think he pushed his family into the lifestyle and I think he did it as a means of abuse and control.

ETA: I don't want anyone to think I think only women are abused. My language was a reflection of my personal experiences where I have worked with and personally known mostly female victims of abuse.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

7 hours ago, amendgitan said:

Wait. Aren't Ben and Derick IFB? If so, they're already members of one of the scariest cults in America regardless if they're ATI, right? 

Neither of them are IFB. Ben is "reformed baptist" aka Calvinist baptist and Derrick was some other mainstream branch and their current church is regular baptist not IFB.

I'm pretty sure the Bates were at Big Sandy. doesnt this look like some of them 

 

[marmalade]

Derick was affiliated with Cross Church (Southern Baptist). It was under their auspices that he went to Nepal. Jill and Derick were married there. 

Sounds like Bobby is IFB, so he should fit into the Bateses' cult just fine. 

[elliha]

8 hours ago, amendgitan said:

The Bateses are more likeable than the Duggars. They're warmer, seem more comfortable in their skin. The parents and children seem to have an easier relationship. The Duggars have always come across as more strained. Hell, the  Bates will even front hug a boyfriend or brother or female friend while the Duggars seem to think that leads immediately to fellatio. 

I think that's why people are more inclined to think the Bates kids might be more likely to stray from the sect. They seem more approachable so it makes the mind feel it's more possible. 

I mean I think more anti-fundie people would rather spend a day with the Bateses instead of the Duggars and might even be lulled into enjoying themselves and feeling this is all kind of normal, not even noticing that whenever little Jebbie is being led from the room when he sulks or acts out, to have "a little talk" with Dad or Erin, or whoever, he's actually being hit with a flexible piece of PVC or a little stick or something. 

It is well-known that if you are in contact with the outside world it is often easier to leave if you wish to do so if you are in a more closed religious group. If the Duggars or the Bates have more contact with people outside their faith is hard to tell but it is clear that the Bates children and their more open and friendly personalities would help would they decide to leave. They would probably be more skilled in making friends or work in say a service profession than the Duggars. That in itself might give them some confidence both in staying and leaving. That is the catch. A Bates kid who is only semi-happy would probably stay longer because they can feel a bit of confidence that leaving is possible later and they can stay just a little longer. 

[formergothardite]

5 hours ago, elliha said:

it is clear that the Bates children and their more open and friendly personalities would help would they decide to leave.

No, that isn't clear. Being outgoing and loud doesn't make it easier to leave. Being quieter and more introverted doesn't make it harder and it also doesn't make you less friendly.  I'm more like  the Duggars personality wise and I really am not unfriendly. But if you stuck me next to a Bates I would look just like a Duggar. Being quieter and more introverted really, really doesn't mean that you lack the skills to make friends or go out and find a way to make money. 

You know what makes people leave? Not introverted and extroverted personalities, but if someone is happy in the lifestyle, if everything is working out great for them in the lifestyle and if they have an incentive to start to question things. So on that merit, it is more likely for the Duggars to leave, You have Joy openly sulking, the lifestyle is really not working out well for the Duggars and there is plenty of incentive to start questioning things. But the Bates. they all act happy all the time about the cult lifestyle and it is all working out great for them. Not even their horrific sex abuse scandal has managed to taint their public image. They are getting away with it all,  none of them seem to be questioning anything and there seems to be no incentive for them to start questioning anything. 

[Palimpsest]

11 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think I read on Recovering Grace that quite a few have eventually left as adults. So it seems possible that 1 of 19 kids will get out. And then a few others may follow. 

Of course people do leave the cult of IBLP, as RG makes very clear.  We have a few survivors on Free Jinger too.  We don't have clear ideas as to the numbers of people and families who leave because IBLP certainly isn't telling.  We do know that membership and donations are way down.  IBLP has been running at a loss for years.

Not all people who leave IBLP reject Christianity itself.  They do recognize that things are wrong with Gothardism.  They may still have genuine faith in Christianity and may join less conservative and legalistic Churches.  Some of them reject Gothardism but fall even further into the pit of false "Christianity" - see John Shrader.

8 hours ago, NotALoserLikeYou said:

I'm pretty sure the Bates were at Big Sandy. doesnt this look like some of them 

Of course the Bateses were at Big Sandy; they were featured speakers.  If people haven't see the thread they should check out the titles of the talks.  Very snarkworthy.

As photos are sparse from Big Sandy 2016 we don't know whether the whole Bates dog and pony show went or whether UP filmed there.  It is possible (but not probable) that some of the young marrieds and preggers opted out this year.

21 hours ago, Diana said:

Thats what i meant, that they are very right wing and culturally catholic( for the Bates that would be culturally fundie) but not religious, so they would accept some stuff that its good for them like birth control,premarital sex, going to secular schools and college, but still would be homophopic, machist, racist, would hate muslims, communists, etc. so even if some of the Bates change their views in some stuff(like dress codes, not having so many kids, having normal education and jobs) and are less religious that their parents doesnt mean that they will change their essential views much from the idiology they grew up in.

There are plenty of Fascist and Neo-Nazi groups in the USA, unfortunately.  That seems to be what you are talking about.  They are not the same as the US brands of Fundamentalist Christianity, although membership may indeed overlap.   

Check out the Sovereign Citizens Movement, sometime.  https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/sovereign-citizens-movement 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

You know what makes people leave? Not introverted and extroverted personalities, but if someone is happy in the lifestyle, if everything is working out great for them in the lifestyle and if they have an incentive to start to question things.

The sad truth is that the people/families at the top of the hierarchy are probably the least likely to leave.  They are comparatively well-off, pampered by the organization, get plenty of perks, and probably were protected from abuse.  They are the elite with little to complain about.  Gothard and the culture of abuse at IBLP/ATI clearly targeted those who were vulnerable, down-trodden, and had already been abused.  It is a known characteristic of abusers to seek out the vulnerable.

It is the people that suffer under Gothardism and its rules who are the most likely to see that the lifestyle is wrong and - to say nothing of financially unsustainable in the long term.

We all want some or all of the young Bateses or Duggars to run from the lcult.  It's just that the signs are not there yet among the Bateses.  There do seem to be more reasons for optimism among the Duggars.   

I also agree that being extroverted and having surface "charm" has absolutely nothing to do with it. 

[elliha]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

No, that isn't clear. Being outgoing and loud doesn't make it easier to leave. Being quieter and more introverted doesn't make it harder and it also doesn't make you less friendly.  I'm more like  the Duggars personality wise and I really am not unfriendly. But if you stuck me next to a Bates I would look just like a Duggar. Being quieter and more introverted really, really doesn't mean that you lack the skills to make friends or go out and find a way to make money. 

You know what makes people leave? Not introverted and extroverted personalities, but if someone is happy in the lifestyle, if everything is working out great for them in the lifestyle and if they have an incentive to start to question things. So on that merit, it is more likely for the Duggars to leave, You have Joy openly sulking, the lifestyle is really not working out well for the Duggars and there is plenty of incentive to start questioning things. But the Bates. they all act happy all the time about the cult lifestyle and it is all working out great for them. Not even their horrific sex abuse scandal has managed to taint their public image. They are getting away with it all,  none of them seem to be questioning anything and there seems to be no incentive for them to start questioning anything. 

Yes, obviously being unhappy is the key factor but that is the key factor for leaving any situation. You also quoted such a tiny bit of what I wrote that your comment turned into nothing. Please quote a whole comment from me in the future if you care to disagree. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

11 hours ago, NotALoserLikeYou said:

Neither of them are IFB. Ben is "reformed baptist" aka Calvinist baptist and Derrick was some other mainstream branch and their current church is regular baptist not IFB.

I'm pretty sure the Bates were at Big Sandy. doesnt this look like some of them 

 

I think that is possibly Gil back there. But I don't see any other possible Bateses.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, elliha said:

Yes, obviously being unhappy is the key factor but that is the key factor for leaving any situation. You also quoted such a tiny bit of what I wrote that your comment turned into nothing. Please quote a whole comment from me in the future if you care to disagree. 

She quoted the portion she was addressing in her comment and likely thought there was no need to quote the rest for that reason (or because she agreed with the rest of what you said and saw no reason to reiterate it). Many posters, myself included, do it on a regular basis. I see nothing wrong with how she chose to quote you.

[elliha]

16 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

She quoted the portion she was addressing in her comment and likely thought there was no need to quote the rest for that reason (or because she agreed with the rest of what you said and saw no reason to reiterate it). Many posters, myself included, do it on a regular basis. I see nothing wrong with how she chose to quote you.

I am aware of this being a practice in many forums.

[BeccaGrim]

On 6/4/2016 at 8:30 AM, Denim Jumper said:

And with the Bates kidults, there is a lot more snap and personality than the Duggar Drones, so I can see them pushing back against some of Gil and Kelly's rules once they are legally adults. So, when you have the older kids not towing the line (even in minor ways, like showing too much collar bone or not being joyful about homeschooling the littles), it can erode the amount of control they have over the rest of the children.

Look I'm not in love with any of these people. But lest we not forget, the Duggar girls were victims of sexual abuse from their brother. They may never be as publicly lively as the Bates' girls. I hear what you're saying. But, I try to cut the Duggar females some slack. 

On 6/12/2016 at 10:03 AM, 19 cats and counting said:

I think there's some underlying reason why a Duggar girl hasn't married IBLP royalty.  Jana's stood as a bridesmaid (the only non family) in two royal weddings (David/Priscilla and Brandon/Michael) that we know of and I'm sure attended as a guest for others.

It is definitely not her looks as (IMO) she is beautiful.  Surely a Waller, Keilen, Staddon, Paine, etc would notice her looks.   I believe the reason is either or a combination of Jim Bob, the dog and pony show that is 19 Kids, the family's reputation wtihin their circles (the friendships seem staged), inability to move away once married (Jill lived on family owned property for the first year of her marriage before heading overseas) or the Duggar girls are considered damaged goods from Joshgate 1.0.  Both Ben and Derick are malleable yes men who ultimately submit to JB (as does Anna).

Also the Duggar couples (including Josiah and Marjorie) didn't seem to act naturally around each other (at first), almost as if it is an arranged marriage.  None of the married Bates couples give me that vibe.

 

This brings up a question I've always had.  Did their community know? Beyond the family and the local people they used to get around having to do anything about Josh, did the community know? Is that why the Duggar girls don't marry royalty like the Bates? Because they were always--and I HATE this term--tainted goods? 

[Palimpsest]

49 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

She quoted the portion she was addressing in her comment and likely thought there was no need to quote the rest for that reason (or because she agreed with the rest of what you said and saw no reason to reiterate it). Many posters, myself included, do it on a regular basis. I see nothing wrong with how she chose to quote you.

Yes.  I agree.  I'd take it a bit further too - we are strongly encouraged not to quote whole posts here.  

30 minutes ago, elliha said:

I am aware of this being a practice in many forums.

It is a well known practice here at FJ.  So what was your problem?

[QuiverDance]

14 hours ago, OrchidBlossom said:

 I have known women in emotionally abusive relationships and they get so used to their partner's triggers (or buttons, or whatever you want to call them) that they would aggressively police other people's behaviors because they were attempting to protect themselves (or the other person, and unfortunately often both).

 

 

This was me.  And I completely agree with your read on this.  JB is a narcissist, and the entire analysis rings very, very true to me.  The strict rules, the legalism, all of it.  I lived with someone who was so much like JB, except on the opposite end of the religion spectrum.  But the dynamic was so similar.  

[Palimpsest]

41 minutes ago, BeccaGrim said:

This brings up a question I've always had.  Did their community know? Beyond the family and the local people they used to get around having to do anything about Josh, did the community know? Is that why the Duggar girls don't marry royalty like the Bates? Because they were always--and I HATE this term--tainted goods? 

I really hope they aren't thought of as tainted goods (I also hate the term.)

The "sin in the camp" issue was apparently freely gossiped about locally.  It was definitely known in the Duggars home church group, and there are dozens of threads here and on other sites discussing it.  This is a good summary of how widespread the rumor was. http://defamer.gawker.com/the-web-has-known-about-josh-duggar-for-years-when-did-1706258269

Josh's original hard labor instead of counselling way back in 2006 was done at an IBLP/ATI building and under supervision by IBLP, so some staff at IBLP were aware of it.  As it turned out the building was rehabilitated - not Josh. 

As to why the Duggars aren't marrying within the cult or IBLT "royalty" (BTW, I hate that term too and wish we could just call them the elite, or something) probably only they know.  I also don't think they are high up in IBLP circles.  Famous because they were on TV=/=part of the elite within the organization.  Also, Perhaps John David and Jana don't want to get married yet?  Perhaps Joseph is waiting to buy his house debt-free?

The Bateses are far more connected and definitely part of the elite at IBLP.  We are looking at practically dynastic marriages with Erin and Alyssa but not with the others, so far.  The Bateses are also marrying very young compared to some of the other Fundies we observe.  

 

[Coconut Flan]

3 hours ago, elliha said:

Please quote a whole comment from me in the future if you care to disagree.

This is highly discouraged at FJ.  In fact snippage is the rule.  It's far better for people to quote what they are responding to in their reply.  People can look up the thread to read the entire comment if they didn't just read it a couple of minutes before.

You are free to disagree with anyone else's opinion or interpretation of what you wrote. 

[formergothardite]

3 hours ago, elliha said:

you also quoted such a tiny bit of what I wrote that your comment turned into nothing. Please quote a whole comment from me in the future if you care to disagree. 

I quoted the part I was disagreeing with and I explained why I disagreed with that part. People seemed to understand, so I'm not sure that my comment turned into nothing. 

I used to quote whole posts and then bold the parts I was addressing, but there was a thread where people were asked not to do that, so I try to now only quote the part of posts I am addressing. I don't want to make life any harder for our admin. 

 

[OrchidBlossom]

1 hour ago, QuiverDance said:

This was me.  And I completely agree with your read on this.  JB is a narcissist, and the entire analysis rings very, very true to me.  The strict rules, the legalism, all of it.  I lived with someone who was so much like JB, except on the opposite end of the religion spectrum.  But the dynamic was so similar.  

I'm sorry you had that experience. One of my dearest friends also had a similar experience and so I tend to be hyper aware of what the dynamic looks like because I was around them for so long.

[QuiverDance]

1 hour ago, OrchidBlossom said:

I'm sorry you had that experience. One of my dearest friends also had a similar experience and so I tend to be hyper aware of what the dynamic looks like because I was around them for so long.

 

 

Thanks.  I've come out of it so much happier.  I should have left him so long ago, but.... I have my children because I didn't, and they are worth every minute.  And I'm talking about getting married again, so it didn't scar me for life!

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I really hope they aren't thought of as tainted goods (I also hate the term.)

The "sin in the camp" issue was apparently freely gossiped about locally.  It was definitely known in the Duggars home church group, and there are dozens of threads here and on other sites discussing it.  This is a good summary of how widespread the rumor was. http://defamer.gawker.com/the-web-has-known-about-josh-duggar-for-years-when-did-1706258269

Josh's original hard labor instead of counselling way back in 2006 was done at an IBLP/ATI building and under supervision by IBLP, so some staff at IBLP were aware of it.  As it turned out the building was rehabilitated - not Josh. 

As to why the Duggars aren't marrying within the cult or IBLT "royalty" (BTW, I hate that term too and wish we could just call them the elite, or something) probably only they know.  I also don't think they are high up in IBLP circles.  Famous because they were on TV=/=part of the elite within the organization.  Also, Perhaps John David and Jana don't want to get married yet?  Perhaps Joseph is waiting to buy his house debt-free?

The Bateses are far more connected and definitely part of the elite at IBLP.  We are looking at practically dynastic marriages with Erin and Alyssa but not with the others, so far.  The Bateses are also marrying very young compared to some of the other Fundies we observe.  

 

I hate the term tainted goods as well. We can thank purity culture for that. Have you ever read what Elizabeth Smart said about teaching kids about that type of purity culture. She was taught that once you had sex, you were like chewed gum. The next person you date won't want chewed gum. And as we know she was raped by her kidnapper and she said she felt so dirty and disgusting like chewed gum. It disgusts me that people can teach children these things and not see how harmful it is.

[VelociRapture]

24 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I hate the term tainted goods as well. We can thank purity culture for that. Have you ever read what Elizabeth Smart said about teaching kids about that type of purity culture. She was taught that once you had sex, you were like chewed gum. The next person you date won't want chewed gum. And as we know she was raped by her kidnapper and she said she felt so dirty and disgusting like chewed gum. It disgusts me that people can teach children these things and not see how harmful it is.

I've read what she's spoken about before. It left me feeling so sad that she struggled with those thoughts... But also grateful that her parents seem to have helped her remember how incredible and worthy of love she is. And I was thrilled when she got married and had her daughter. If anyone deserves a healthy and loving family life it's definitely her.