Tori Bates Courtship- Part 2

[Melissa1977]

@Bye Bye Birdie do you know Alyssa? Do you think she can leave the cult? I mean, some of us think she's going fundie-lite, not following exactly her parents way of life. I'm pretty sure she'll remain very conservative, but leaving gothardism and taking a more mainstream path can make her life better.

Same with Carlin, Josie... they seem so outgoing. I just don't see them reading the Bible for hours and willing to have 15 kids. I can be wrong of course, but they are very different from Michael or Erin. I know age is important, but they're like from different planets.

Ok, I know, maybe they're just faking. But I think Bates controlled older kids more than they're controlling the middle ones. The show gives they money but I think it makes difficult to do the extreme brainwashing they did when they lived isolated and poor.

So maybe middle or young kids can break.

[Bye Bye Birdie]

22 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

@Bye Bye Birdie do you know Alyssa? Do you think she can leave the cult? I mean, some of us think she's going fundie-lite, not following exactly her parents way of life. I'm pretty sure she'll remain very conservative, but leaving gothardism and taking a more mainstream path can make her life better.

Same with Carlin, Josie... they seem so outgoing. I just don't see them reading the Bible for hours and willing to have 15 kids. I can be wrong of course, but they are very different from Michael or Erin. I know age is important, but they're like from different planets.

Ok, I know, maybe they're just faking. But I think Bates controlled older kids more than they're controlling the middle ones. The show gives they money but I think it makes difficult to do the extreme brainwashing they did when they lived isolated and poor.

So maybe middle or young kids can break.

I do know Alyssa. I don't want to be nasty, but let's put it this way- she's not very bright. She may ''leave'' fundiedom, but not because she will have some great enlightment where she realizes the dangers and awefullness of it all, but mainly because it will no longer be convenient to her. (She's also very vain and self- concerned). She will probably keep whatever suits her- ie hating gays, husband umbrella etc, and discard what she doesn't really like - ie having eleventy kids, wearing only skirts etc. (Which is not so surprising in itself, because that's what she's always seen her parents do, her whole life- they would always just pick and choose whatever suits them- I mean Bible also says not to cut women's hair, not to wear jewlery or makeup, but they don't care about that anymore).. 

 

Also, don't let them fool you- just because Carlin is loud doesn't mean she's doesn't believe every little bit of it and dying to get married and have children ( she's literally been planning it since she was 10). Josie too, but I have a special place in my heart for Josie so am quite biased and hope she will see the light  But you have to understand that they don't know anything else. They're in this world 24/7 since the day Gil jumped on Kelly and produced them. All their school, activities and relationship are all confirming what they've been brainwashed to believe. I mean, it's not impossible to escape it all ( well, I'm a living proof, right?), but what makes it even harder for the Bates (and Duggar) kids is that there is the aspect of money involved. Heck, I have a friend who works for less than minimum wage and can't support his family , just so that his dad's printing business doesn't go under. Can you imagine if you believed that livelihood (and in this case ''ministry'') of your entire family, whom you love the most in the world, depended on you following certain path? The pressure to stay is incredible.

So in short, no I don't think any of them will break (at least not up to Josie)- after that, we will have to see... 

[actuallyjessica]

Thanks for your insight.

It will be fascinating to see which positions these fundies will be in 5-10 years time.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

6 hours ago, Bye Bye Birdie said:

I do know Alyssa. I don't want to be nasty, but let's put it this way- she's not very bright. She may ''leave'' fundiedom, but not because she will have some great enlightment where she realizes the dangers and awefullness of it all, but mainly because it will no longer be convenient to her. (She's also very vain and self- concerned). She will probably keep whatever suits her- ie hating gays, husband umbrella etc, and discard what she doesn't really like - ie having eleventy kids, wearing only skirts etc. (Which is not so surprising in itself, because that's what she's always seen her parents do, her whole life- they would always just pick and choose whatever suits them- I mean Bible also says not to cut women's hair, not to wear jewlery or makeup, but they don't care about that anymore).. 

Which, to be fair, is what tons of 'normal' Christians do anyway. I can't slam her too heavily with that when my mother's side of the family is full of 'cafeteria catholics' who say they are Catholic while gladly openly doing things like using birth control, getting remarried after a divorce and having pre-marital sex and living with their boyfriends. Alyssa is not the first Christian to keep what she likes and discard the rest.

 

 

[Palimpsest]

18 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

Which, to be fair, is what tons of 'normal' Christians do anyway. I can't slam her too heavily with that when my mother's side of the family is full of 'cafeteria catholics' who say they are Catholic while gladly openly doing things like using birth control, getting remarried after a divorce and having pre-marital sex and living with their boyfriends. Alyssa is not the first Christian to keep what she likes and discard the rest.

 

Well, yes.  I know plenty of cafeteria catholics too.  I find them hypocritical as hell but most of them are not preaching hatred.  

If you challenge them on the hypocrisy the usual excuse is that they are trying to effect change from within.  At least, that's what my sister-in-law the nun says anyway.  Not that she is using birth control or doing all those other things - far from it - but she is actually pro-choice when push comes to shove.  

She is a very liberal nun who despises the Vatican and sees no need to obey any of the directives from Rome.  At times the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) is close to open revolt against the Vatican.  Eh, she is coming up on her 40th Jubilee in her particular order.  I doubt she will leave now even though she has not managed to see much change.  At least her heart is in the right place, and she preaches love and understanding more than hatred for anyone who believes differently.

Be that as it may, what people seem to be missing in their rush to approve (or fail to criticize) Alyssa as a cafeteria Gothardite - is that what the Bates family is preaching is a corrupt form of Fundamentalist quasi-Christianity.  And they are actively promoting Gothardism and IBLP through the TV show.

Have the Fundamentalist dangers of IBLP and Gothard not computed?

It sounds as though it is A-OK with some of you if Alyssa cherry-picks IBLP beliefs and still promotes the Patriarchy and female submission, along with a lot of homophobic and anti-choice rhetoric, so long as she dresses prettily and doesn't have eleventy children herself?  If she does that IMO she is both a hypocrite and retains ugly beliefs.

Quick reminder again.  Free Jinger is not a Bates family fan club nor is it an Alyssa Bates fan club.  We exist to discuss the dangers of fundamentalism.

 

[LawsonBatesEgo]

6 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Well, yes.  I know plenty of cafeteria catholics too.  I find them hypocritical as hell but most of them are not preaching hatred.  

If you challenge them on the hypocrisy the usual excuse is that they are trying to effect change from within.  At least, that's what my sister-in-law the nun says anyway.  Not that she is using birth control or doing all those other things - far from it - but she is actually pro-choice when push comes to shove.  

She is a very liberal nun who despises the Vatican and sees no need to obey any of the directives from Rome.  At times the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) is close to open revolt against the Vatican.  Eh, she is coming up on her 40th Jubilee in her particular order.  I doubt she will leave now even though she has not managed to see much change.  At least her heart is in the right place, and she preaches love and understanding more than hatred for anyone who believes differently.

Be that as it may, what people seem to be missing in their rush to approve (or fail to criticize) Alyssa as a cafeteria Gothardite - is that what the Bates family is preaching is a corrupt form of Fundamentalist quasi-Christianity.  And they are actively promoting Gothardism and IBLP through the TV show.

Have the Fundamentalist dangers of IBLP and Gothard not computed?

It sounds as though it is A-OK with some of you if Alyssa cherry-picks IBLP beliefs and still promotes the Patriarchy and female submission, along with a lot of homophobic and anti-choice rhetoric, so long as she dresses prettily and doesn't have eleventy children herself?  If she does that IMO she is both a hypocrite and retains ugly beliefs.

Quick reminder again.  Free Jinger is not a Bates family fan club nor is it an Alyssa Bates fan club.  We exist to discuss the dangers of fundamentalism.

 

I don't think I worded my post as well as I could have.

What I was getting at was that it would feel hypocritical of me to go on and on about Alyssa's 'cherry picking' and how ridiculous it is, when I give my 'cheery picking cafeteria catholic' cousins/friends/aunts little more than an eyebrow raise and a 'well ok then' look. 

I do hate the way a lot of Christians use the bible to be al for legally banning same sex marriage/abortion while engaging in pre-marital sex and wearing polyester and not living in tents when they have their periods. But the cafeteria catholics I am friendly with are pro gay marriage (Australia is more liberal on that front) and take the 'I wouldn't have an abortion, but I don't care what you do' approach which makes them easier to deal with.

She picks and chooses what believes she is going to live by, but it would be hypocritical of me to drag her for that when a solid 95% of the Christians I know (I'm an atheist myself) pick and choose the beliefs that suit them as well. 

[nelliebelle1197]

On 7/11/2016 at 5:58 PM, Bye Bye Birdie said:

I do know Alyssa. I don't want to be nasty, but let's put it this way- she's not very bright. She may ''leave'' fundiedom, but not because she will have some great enlightment where she realizes the dangers and awefullness of it all, but mainly because it will no longer be convenient to her. (She's also very vain and self- concerned). She will probably keep whatever suits her- ie hating gays, husband umbrella etc, and discard what she doesn't really like - ie having eleventy kids, wearing only skirts etc. (Which is not so surprising in itself, because that's what she's always seen her parents do, her whole life- they would always just pick and choose whatever suits them- I mean Bible also says not to cut women's hair, not to wear jewlery or makeup, but they don't care about that anymore).. 

 

Also, don't let them fool you- just because Carlin is loud doesn't mean she's doesn't believe every little bit of it and dying to get married and have children ( she's literally been planning it since she was 10). Josie too, but I have a special place in my heart for Josie so am quite biased and hope she will see the light  But you have to understand that they don't know anything else. They're in this world 24/7 since the day Gil jumped on Kelly and produced them. All their school, activities and relationship are all confirming what they've been brainwashed to believe. I mean, it's not impossible to escape it all ( well, I'm a living proof, right?), but what makes it even harder for the Bates (and Duggar) kids is that there is the aspect of money involved. Heck, I have a friend who works for less than minimum wage and can't support his family , just so that his dad's printing business doesn't go under. Can you imagine if you believed that livelihood (and in this case ''ministry'') of your entire family, whom you love the most in the world, depended on you following certain path? The pressure to stay is incredible.

So in short, no I don't think any of them will break (at least not up to Josie)- after that, we will have to see... 

Yeah, I figured Alyssa was not bright enough to think this stuff through. My user title, by the way, is an homage to Alyssa.

On 6/28/2016 at 7:42 PM, HermioneSparrow said:

So Jessa is showing signs of resistance by listening to CHRISTIAN rap (that she probably doesn't even like but she listens cause she has to be submissive to her hubs) but Alyssa's choices are nothing...? Lmao at the double standard here.

Btw I don't think there's much indication of ANY of them drifting from the cult but come on stop the hypocrisy, it seems even personal.

Jessa married outside of IBLP and her IFB roots. So did Jill. And Jinger is courting outside.  All that is theology, not superficial stuff like Alyssa. Christian rap is a big fucking deal for someone brought up in IBLP and IFB. Been there. Done that. That kind of music can send you to hell. Until you have sat through sermons and indoctrination sessions on the evils of music with a "beat" then don't tell me Christian rap is not a big deal. I dealt with agony over buying a Keith Green tape when I was 12.

Also, Alyssa's "choices" are nothing more than dressing differently than her mom. In a totally IBLP-approved way. Where are the major shifts for Alyssa? You know most mega IFB/IBLP families have only 6-8 kids, which is the number Alyssa has stated she wants. There is nothing there, nothing, and it gets really tiresome pointing out that the stuff she does - from wearing pants to her choice of husband- are 120% okay with IBLP and many major IFB sects.

[Palimpsest]

6 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I don't think I worded my post as well as I could have.

What I was getting at was that it would feel hypocritical of me to go on and on about Alyssa's 'cherry picking' and how ridiculous it is, when I give my 'cheery picking cafeteria catholic' cousins/friends/aunts little more than an eyebrow raise and a 'well ok then' look. 

I do hate the way a lot of Christians use the bible to be al for legally banning same sex marriage/abortion while engaging in pre-marital sex and wearing polyester and not living in tents when they have their periods. But the cafeteria catholics I am friendly with are pro gay marriage (Australia is more liberal on that front) and take the 'I wouldn't have an abortion, but I don't care what you do' approach which makes them easier to deal with.

She picks and chooses what believes she is going to live by, but it would be hypocritical of me to drag her for that when a solid 95% of the Christians I know (I'm an atheist myself) pick and choose the beliefs that suit them as well. 

I am also an atheist but I try not to mock people who have what appears to be genuine faith even though I do not share it.  Christians who genuinely consider, examine, and even criticize their chosen faith - or church or denomination - are not terribly hypocritical to me.  

However, the ones who blindly follow corrupt leadership out of habit or inheritance are giant hypocrites at best.  The worst of them (again like IBLP followers) actively attempt to push their corrupt and hateful beliefs down my throat.  They are also working hard to try to impose a theocracy here in the US.  See Alyssa's father-in-law Taliban Dan Webster amongst others. 

Perhaps being Australian you underestimate the threat, although we have many Australian members here who do understand it.  You can check out IBLP for yourself in Australia.  They have regular Family Conferences scheduled around the country, although they don't seem as popular there as they do here in the States and haven't made as many converts.  Yet.  http://iblp.org.au/ 

If you feel it is hypocritical to criticize extreme Fundamentalist beliefs then perhaps you should reconsider your participation on Free Jinger.  As I said - that is what we do here.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

I am also an atheist but I try not to mock people who have what appears to be genuine faith even though I do not share it.  Christians who genuinely consider, examine, and even criticize their chosen faith - or church or denomination - are not terribly hypocritical to me.  

However, the ones who blindly follow corrupt leadership out of habit or inheritance are giant hypocrites at best.  The worst of them (again like IBLP followers) actively attempt to push their corrupt and hateful beliefs down my throat.  They are also working hard to try to impose a theocracy here in the US.  See Alyssa's father-in-law Taliban Dan Webster amongst others. 

Perhaps being Australian you underestimate the threat, although we have many Australian members here who do understand it.  You can check out IBLP for yourself in Australia.  They have regular Family Conferences scheduled around the country, although they don't seem as popular there as they do here in the States and haven't made as many converts.  Yet.  http://iblp.org.au/ 

If you feel it is hypocritical to criticize extreme Fundamentalist beliefs then perhaps you should reconsider your participation on Free Jinger.  As I said - that is what we do here.

I don't know if that's completely necessary. I can kind of understand what @LawsonBatesEgo is trying to say. And I think she was saying it would feel hypocritical for her, personally, to criticize rather than the site as a whole. Maybe with time and more exposure she'll start to change her mind on that - or maybe she won't. I think she should stick around a bit longer though and see what happens. This can be a great resource for learning.

I also see your point though. There is a difference between Cafeteria Catholics and someone like Alyssa. Tons of Cafeteria Catholics aren't actually trying to legislate people's love lives or reproductive habits, which makes them far more tolerable and open minded than someone like Alyssa Webster may be. A lot of them even actually speak out against Church teachings and try to really push for change from within as well. We have yet to see anything like that from Alyssa or her siblings or any Duggars.

Personally, I don't feel hypocritical for criticizing Alyssa or pointing out how she's really not moving away from anything. Alyssa chose to put her family in the spotlight again and criticism comes with the territory. We can debate how much of a choice there may have been for them... But, at the end of the day, I highly doubt anyone really forced them to sign up for the show. 

I will give her credit for some things - like flawlessly shutting down people who make fun of her daughter or leaving Instagram because it wasn't fun any longer. But other stuff, like wardrobe changes, aren't going to impress me much. She looks cute and happy, but that's about all the jeans and sleeveless shirts tell me.

[HermioneSparrow]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Jessa married outside of IBLP and her IFB roots. So did Jill. And Jinger is courting outside.  All that is theology, not superficial stuff like Alyssa. Christian rap is a big fucking deal for someone brought up in IBLP and IFB. Been there. Done that. That kind of music can send you to hell. Until you have sat through sermons and indoctrination sessions on the evils of music with a "beat" then don't tell me Christian rap is not a big deal. I dealt with agony over buying a Keith Green tape when I was 12.

Also, Alyssa's "choices" are nothing more than dressing differently than her mom. In a totally IBLP-approved way. Where are the major shifts for Alyssa? You know most mega IFB/IBLP families have only 6-8 kids, which is the number Alyssa has stated she wants. There is nothing there, nothing, and it gets really tiresome pointing out that the stuff she does - from wearing pants to her choice of husband- are 120% okay with IBLP and many major IFB sects.

You know, I actually said that day (and I still think) that NONE of these people are stepping away from fundamentalism, I wasn't defending Alyssa, I just think the comparisons are ridiculous because they are ALL very deep into the koolaid, none of those choices are making them leave the cult, in fact seems the opposite.

Time will tell with all of them.

[nelliebelle1197]

1 minute ago, HermioneSparrow said:

You know, I actually said that day (and I still think) that NONE of these people are stepping away from fundamentalism, I wasn't defending Alyssa, I just think the comparisons are ridiculous because they are ALL very deep into the koolaid, none of those choices are making them leave the cult, in fact seems the opposite.

Time will tell with all of them.

Oh, I know and I thought I posted on that. But I must have left it on another device

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Yeah, I figured Alyssa was not bright enough to think this stuff through. My user title, by the way, is an homage to Alyssa.

I feel strongly convicted about asking you for the story behind this. 

[HermioneSparrow]

32 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Oh, I know and I thought I posted on that. But I must have left it on another device

I'm not a Bates leghumper. You posted about the christian rap thing and it comes from your experience, you know more about gothardism than I do, I might have posted that coming from my experience on fundamentalist catholicism. You're right though but I still think they're not changing that much. Sorry if that hit a nerve on you, I didn't mean to and it wasn't directed at you but your response was a bit agressive.

[Palimpsest]

1 minute ago, VelociRapture said:

I don't know if that's completely necessary.

It was a suggestion not an order.  

Look, I'm really, really, tired of all the excuses made for the Bateses in general and for Alyssa in particular.  They are showing no real signs of moving away from their beliefs.  Some posters (not necessarily the one I quoted) have consistently tried to shut down criticism of IBLP/the Bateses apparently because they resent information and reality checks from people like @formergothardite, @nelliebelle1197, and, to a lesser extent, me.  @formergothardite has been incredibly patient.  Me, not so much.

This last excuse really got my goat - and it is completely inconsistent with what Free Jinger exists to do.  Should I not point that out?

If people genuinely think they are being hypocritical if they criticize the Bateses extreme Fundamentalist beliefs then I genuinely want to know why they think they are not being hypocritical for posting on Free Jinger.  There are plenty of fan pages where they can be Alyssa apologists, after all.

[VelociRapture]

2 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

It was a suggestion not an order.  

Look, I'm really, really, tired of all the excuses made for the Bateses in general and for Alyssa in particular.  They are showing no real signs of moving away from their beliefs.  Some posters (not necessarily the one I quoted) have consistently tried to shut down criticism of IBLP/the Bateses apparently because they resent information and reality checks from people like @formergothardite, @nelliebelle1197, and, to a lesser extent, me.  @formergothardite has been incredibly patient.  Me, not so much.

This last excuse really got my goat - and it is completely inconsistent with what Free Jinger exists to do.  Should I not point that out?

If people genuinely think they are being hypocritical if they criticize the Bateses extreme Fundamentalist beliefs then I genuinely want to know why they think they are not being hypocritical for posting on Free Jinger.  There are plenty of fan pages where they can be Alyssa apologists, after all.

I never said you shouldn't point anything out and, of course, I know it wasn't an order - I just wanted to go on record saying it may not be necessary because I used to think you were actually a Helpmeet for a while and I don't want anyone else confusing a suggestion for an order (I know. I'm lame for not realizing you weren't in charge for so long. ) 

In case you forgot, lately I've been right there with you guys attempting to point out that minor changes aren't indicative of major breaks away from this type of Fundamentalism. Maybe not as well or often as you all, but I still make an effort to help. I fully agree on the point of the site and the need to criticize these people.

I just don't think everyone who disagrees or questions us needs to have people suggesting they leave the site entirely is all. For some people it just takes a while for them to learn, understand, and come around to how we criticize here. I know that it was only in the last few months that I personally really started to understand why some changes aren't all that important - and it was entirely due to @formergotharditepatiently explaining over numerous threads and months. I can't overstate how grateful I am that she was so patient and explained things so clearly for so long by the way. I wouldn't have learned so fast otherwise.

(And to be fair, there have been many times you're more direct approach has been entirely warranted, appreciated, and enjoyed by your's truly. Some posters across the site need that type of approach and you just have such a beautiful way with words.)

I know it gets old and tiring saying the same things over and over again. I really do. I've tried pointing stuff out at times in the Duggar threads and it is really tiring. But people are never going to learn or understand if we simply dismiss them or tell them to go elsewhere. Maybe that's a good suggestion for someone here for more than a year who refuses to change, but this poster has only been around officially for a few months. I don't know if that's necessarily enough time for someone who isn't coming from a Fundamentalist background to really grasp the differences (or I could just be projecting because that was my experience. In which case, feel free to ignore that. )

[LawsonBatesEgo]

All I'm saying is that cherry picking the parts of your faith/upbringing that you like and ignoring the rest is not an exclusive to ATI/IBLP folk. I'd run out of fingers before I'm even half done if I used my hands to count all the people I know with a bible quote in their Instagram bios and have premarital sex. Given that I don't really give them a hard time over this beyond maybe an eyebrow raise, it would feel hypocritical of me to drag Alyssa over the coals for being a cherry picker. 

[Palimpsest]

10 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I never said you shouldn't point anything out and, of course, I know it wasn't an order - I just wanted to go on record saying it may not be necessary because I used to think you were actually a Helpmeet for a while and I don't want anyone else confusing a suggestion for an order (I know. I'm lame for not realizing you weren't in charge for so long. ) 

In case you forgot, lately I've been right there with you guys attempting to point out that minor changes aren't indicative of major breaks away from this type of Fundamentalism. Maybe not as well or often as you all, but I still make an effort to help. I fully agree on the point of the site and the need to criticize these people.

I just don't think everyone who disagrees or questions us needs to have people suggesting they leave the site entirely is all. For some people it just takes a while for them to learn, understand, and come around to how we criticize here. I know that it was only in the last few months that I personally really started to understand why some changes aren't all that important - and it was entirely due to @formergotharditepatiently explaining over numerous threads and months. I can't overstate how grateful I am that she was so patient and explained things so clearly for so long by the way. I wouldn't have learned so fast otherwise.

(And to be fair, there have been many times you're more direct approach has been entirely warranted, appreciated, and enjoyed by your's truly. Some posters across the site need that type of approach and you just have such a beautiful way with words.)

I know it gets old and tiring saying the same things over and over again. I really do. I've tried pointing stuff out at times in the Duggar threads and it is really tiring. But people are never going to learn or understand if we simply dismiss them or tell them to go elsewhere. Maybe that's a good suggestion for someone here for more than a year who refuses to change, but this poster has only been around officially for a few months. I don't know if that's necessarily enough time for someone who isn't coming from a Fundamentalist background to really grasp the differences (or I could just be projecting because that was my experience. In which case, feel free to ignore that. )

I'm not a Helpmeet!  :stamps foot:  I'm not, I'm not, I'm not!!!  That little thing under my name says Wikiteam not Helpmeet and it is PINK !!!!111!!Eleventy!!!11111 

Yes, I have a more direct approach than you do.  I used to be much kinder but, quite frankly, the gentler suggestions don't seem to be getting through to some people.  If you see your role as pouring oil, fine.  I don't criticize you for it and appreciate the attempts you make on the Duggar side.   We are not all like you, however. The more direct approach tends to be labelled aggressive - see the defensive response to @nelliebelle1197, right above - but unless leg-humping is nipped in the bud it goes out of control.  We've seen that happen with the Bateses threads before and it seems a constant effort to keep these threads on track. 

IMO, a couple of months is plenty of time for most people to understand the purpose of Free Jinger and learn the culture.  Understanding the dangers of Fundamentalist beliefs may take longer but people can at least respect the information given by long-term members who have either lived the life and escaped, or spent a long time researching it.   I'm amused by multiple passive aggressive posts that start "To be fair [and proceed to make excuses]" and "Not to be accused of being a leg-humper [and proceed to leg-hump]" but it gets old quite quickly.

For the record, I did not suggest that anyone left the site.  People who want to act as apologists for extreme Fundamentalists and feel hypocritical for criticizing their beliefs might not find Free Jinger the best fit though.  It happens.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

@LawsonBatesEgoI don't think it's hypocritical at all. Most Christians think that the Bible is the word of God mediated by human silliness and expressed through the language and into the traditions of the times when the various books were written. Hence the need for intetpretation to distinguish God's message from outdated human traditions. Fundies tend to think that it is the inerrant word of God full stop (young earth,  creationism, submission etc), no interpretation allowed. And then they cherry pick. See the hypocrisy? 

[BeccaGrim]

On 6/22/2016 at 3:36 AM, season of life said:

I think the Bates girls have a strong personality because they are outgoing, talkative. Jill was a butt kisser, Jessa was chill and a tad controlling, and Jinger got less spunky as she got older. Not what I'd strong personalities. JB and Michelle try to stunt any non feminine behavior (like Johannah becoming a "lady") whereas some of the Bates girls stay bold. This could all change after marriage though.

As far as we know the Bates girls have never been molested by their brother.  That alters personalities in large ways...

[JermajestyDuggar]

I always got the impression that Alyssa was vain so what BBB said doesn't surprise me. I also wouldn't be surprised if that's partly why she doesn't want a million kids like her parents. 

[formergothardite]

Thanks for the kind words @VelociRapture. I'm glad that spending forever continually repeating myself as at least done some good.  I've been getting to the "why bother" point. 

Alyssa isn't even cherry picking IBLP. She is promoting evil and living a perfect IBLP life. She is participating and profiting from spreading and normalizing a hate group. All the cute clothes don't make up for that and I'm not sure why people want to twist themselves into pretzels trying to make her less fundie. Being loud and outgoing also doesn't make the rest of them less fundie. 

[Nikedagain?]

21 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Alyssa isn't even cherry picking IBLP. She is promoting evil and living a perfect IBLP life. She is participating and profiting from spreading and normalizing a hate group.

Yass! This! Can I get a witness?? 

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

I'm not a Helpmeet!  :stamps foot:  I'm not, I'm not, I'm not!!!  That little thing under my name says Wikiteam not Helpmeet and it is PINK !!!!111!!Eleventy!!!11111 

Not only did I think you were a Helpmeet for a long time, I used to confuse you with Valsa. (Not anything that reflects on you or your posting, it was just two posters with a good amount of posts and a long history and somehow I mixed up both your names in the beginning when names still ran together.)

Anyway, for the longest time when I'd read one of your posts, I'd think "Wow, Valsa is really becoming more level-headed and better at addressing disagreements." 

[VelociRapture]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I'm not a Helpmeet!  :stamps foot:  I'm not, I'm not, I'm not!!!  That little thing under my name says Wikiteam not Helpmeet and it is PINK !!!!111!!Eleventy!!!11111 

Yes, I have a more direct approach than you do.  I used to be much kinder but, quite frankly, the gentler suggestions don't seem to be getting through to some people.  If you see your role as pouring oil, fine.  I don't criticize you for it and appreciate the attempts you make on the Duggar side.   We are not all like you, however. The more direct approach tends to be labelled aggressive - see the defensive response to @nelliebelle1197, right above - but unless leg-humping is nipped in the bud it goes out of control.  We've seen that happen with the Bateses threads before and it seems a constant effort to keep these threads on track. 

IMO, a couple of months is plenty of time for most people to understand the purpose of Free Jinger and learn the culture.  Understanding the dangers of Fundamentalist beliefs may take longer but people can at least respect the information given by long-term members who have either lived the life and escaped, or spent a long time researching it.   I'm amused by multiple passive aggressive posts that start "To be fair [and proceed to make excuses]" and "Not to be accused of being a leg-humper [and proceed to leg-hump]" but it gets old quite quickly.

For the record, I did not suggest that anyone left the site.  People who want to act as apologists for extreme Fundamentalists and feel hypocritical for criticizing their beliefs might not find Free Jinger the best fit though.  It happens.

Message received madam.

I'll continue pouring oil, but only if you agree to spark fires when needed. 

[Palimpsest]

15 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Not only did I think you were a Helpmeet for a long time, I used to confuse you with Valsa. (Not anything that reflects on you or your posting, it was just two posters with a good amount of posts and a long history and somehow I mixed up both your names in the beginning when names still ran together.)

Anyway, for the longest time when I'd read one of your posts, I'd think "Wow, Valsa is really becoming more level-headed and better at addressing disagreements." 

You confused me with Valsa? 

Good grief, on my very worst day I am positively warm and fuzzy in comparison to Valsa. 

I'll forgive you though and I actually agreed with Valsa on quite a few things, but not necessarily her ways of saying them.   I think I came back from my long hiatus from FJ about the same time as she left so that may have added to your confusion.