Tori Bates Courtship- Part 2

[TuringMachine]

Man I have so much reading to do. My understanding of different sects of Christianity is limited to basically Catholic and non-Catholic. Actually I do understand Mormonism and Quakerism but that's about it.  Time to go learn what Calvinism is!

[stevie]

5 hours ago, OrchidBlossom said:

I wonder if it might help to define what we mean by rebellion? I was seeing it as a conscious rejection of beliefs, but I think maybe that caused the conflict I had above, where I certainly wasn't disagreeing that Jill and Jessa's marriages represented a step away from their cult but more that I wasn't sure if it was their intention to do so or if they had kind of  considered it okay within their beliefs (although it may be either, I'm honestly not sure, we aren't in their heads so I would definitely be open to the possibility of that or circumstantial evidence of either). Similarly I think Josh's choices in the Ashley Madison scandal represent something but I'm not sure if it is "rebellion" in a conscious sense or if it is cognitive dissonance/hypocrisy.something else. Well, spoiler alert, it is definitely hypocrisy.

I mean Jill and Jessa marrying outside the cult is important. I just wonder what their subjective intent on it is though. 

Does anyone know IBLP/Gothardisms view on sort of using their attractive young members to recruit. Not "flirt to convert" per se because flirting is bad, but I have known a few fundies (but mostly men because of the spiritual leadership stuff) who purposefully sought to convert their partners (later spouses) to their exact/particular manner of fundie-ism through basically drawing them in with the relationship. This is only a tangientally related question. 

This does make sense. I don't think Jessa and Jill think they're rebelling at all and think it's completely inside their beliefs. I know a girl at my college who has been talking to this guy for like a year now and they already seem like boyfriend and girlfriend but she won't officially date him because she's Christian and he's Catholic and she don't want to date someone with a different belief system than her. And I don't think Josh was rebelling against his beliefs. I think he did it for other reasons but what he did was certainly outside of what they believe in. I don't know I wish any of these people would question how they had been raised and question if it right or not. I don't know all of them seem though content with their life though. I could be wrong though they could be secretly not content. Who knows.

[formergothardite]

I agree, I don't think Jill and Jessa think they are rebelling at all, my point in bringing that stuff up was that if you were going to take tiny, meaningless things and claim they are baby steps away from IBLP, Jill and Jessa have taken more of those steps. Jessa's husband is attempting to rap! Something she is been raised to see as straight up demonic and worshiping Satan! That is a bigger step than anything the Bates have done. Yet the Bates are the ones people like to declare are moving away from IBLP. 

The Bates having perky outgoing personalities means absolutely nothing in terms of them being less fundie or less involved in IBLP. 

I do think some of the Duggars are sort of lost and floundering at this moment because, since the time they were teenagers, reality television was their life and they probably thought it was going to continue that way. Now that being television stars has been taken away from them, they are going to have to figure out what they are going to do with their lives. And they probably will. Their lives have been turned upside down in the last year, I'm not surprised they are still trying to figure it all out. 

[nelliebelle1197]

6 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

I'm just going to leave this here:

http://m.christianpost.com/news/duggar-familys-close-relationship-with-vision-forum-founder-doug-phillips-and-wife-highlighted-after-scandal-108697/?m=1

Even though there are huge differences in doctrine, I don't think it was a big deal for JB or Ben wouldn't have made it past the security gate or anywhere near Jessa. The Duggars (while been IFB and Gothardites) are a cult of their own).

Do not take this Bates leghumping. They are awful people with dangerous beliefs that have hurt people.

I don't think it was a big deal for Jim Bob because he probably does not know the difference between the elect and the election. I do think it would have made a huge difference for Gil Bates and his daughters. They are much more steeped in the IBLP cult and its propagation than the Duggars ever have been. I also point that out about them - if the Duggars were more than a celebrity prop for Gothard, Jim Bob would have been on the board. Jana was big into JTTH, but no Duggar worked at headquarters or married board members' kids or headquarters employees.

When the Bates are being praised as different from the Duggars, well, yeah, they are. They are more hardcore IBLP, more hardcore fundie and have children that are much more brainwashed. Unlike other speculation, there is actual evidence for this.

As to the downvoting, I don't think you necessarily have to explain, but I think you should have at least one post or contribute a little if you are going to disagree. It's just cowardly.

[Kak]

I agree @nelliebelle1197. I don't think JB has what I will politely call an academic approach.

[19 cats and counting]

I think there's some underlying reason why a Duggar girl hasn't married IBLP royalty.  Jana's stood as a bridesmaid (the only non family) in two royal weddings (David/Priscilla and Brandon/Michael) that we know of and I'm sure attended as a guest for others.

It is definitely not her looks as (IMO) she is beautiful.  Surely a Waller, Keilen, Staddon, Paine, etc would notice her looks.   I believe the reason is either or a combination of Jim Bob, the dog and pony show that is 19 Kids, the family's reputation wtihin their circles (the friendships seem staged), inability to move away once married (Jill lived on family owned property for the first year of her marriage before heading overseas) or the Duggar girls are considered damaged goods from Joshgate 1.0.  Both Ben and Derick are malleable yes men who ultimately submit to JB (as does Anna).

Also the Duggar couples (including Josiah and Marjorie) didn't seem to act naturally around each other (at first), almost as if it is an arranged marriage.  None of the married Bates couples give me that vibe.

 

[elliha]

47 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

I think there's some underlying reason why a Duggar girl hasn't married IBLP royalty.  Jana's stood as a bridesmaid (the only non family) in two royal weddings (David/Priscilla and Brandon/Michael) that we know of and I'm sure attended as a guest for others.

It is definitely not her looks as (IMO) she is beautiful.  Surely a Waller, Keilen, Staddon, Paine, etc would notice her looks.   I believe the reason is either or a combination of Jim Bob, the dog and pony show that is 19 Kids, the family's reputation wtihin their circles (the friendships seem staged), inability to move away once married (Jill lived on family owned property for the first year of her marriage before heading overseas) or the Duggar girls are considered damaged goods from Joshgate 1.0.  Both Ben and Derick are malleable yes men who ultimately submit to JB (as does Anna).

Also the Duggar couples (including Josiah and Marjorie) didn't seem to act naturally around each other (at first), almost as if it is an arranged marriage.  None of the married Bates couples give me that vibe.

 

I actually think JB is a huge reason why they are not higher up. I think that his control is off putting even to other fundies and I frankly think he is not that much fun to be around. I think Josh scandal(s) matter to some but not to all people but for those that it matters for it is probably very important. I think the show is important because of JB:s control issues but that if his influence on his children would have been age appropriate I don't think it would be a big deal because they they would know that a married adult child could keep a bit of distance from it as it seems Alyssa has done in part at least. I think that a huge difference is that Kelly and Gil do have an adult relationship to their married children and that they do seem to understand that they are not part of the family the same way as someone living at home. 

[formergothardite]

It could just be that the Duggars aren't in a super rush to get married. They might be perfectly happy unmarried, not having to worry about having babies or any of that stuff. 

The Bates have gotten married at a faster than normal rate even for IBLP fundies. Gil and Kelly are shoving their kids into fundie marriages to have babies as fast as they can. 

 

[OrchidBlossom]

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I agree, I don't think Jill and Jessa think they are rebelling at all, my point in bringing that stuff up was that if you were going to take tiny, meaningless things and claim they are baby steps away from IBLP, Jill and Jessa have taken more of those steps. Jessa's husband is attempting to rap! Something she is been raised to see as straight up demonic and worshiping Satan! That is a bigger step than anything the Bates have done. Yet the Bates are the ones people like to declare are moving away from IBLP. 

The Bates having perky outgoing personalities means absolutely nothing in terms of them being less fundie or less involved in IBLP. 

I do think some of the Duggars are sort of lost and floundering at this moment because, since the time they were teenagers, reality television was their life and they probably thought it was going to continue that way. Now that being television stars has been taken away from them, they are going to have to figure out what they are going to do with their lives. And they probably will. Their lives have been turned upside down in the last year, I'm not surprised they are still trying to figure it all out. 

This as I've said I think is so true. I don't think Jill and Jessa could ever do "enough" in most people's eyes to be out of the cult (regardless of whether it is their subjective intention to be out) because of the perception of their family. The Bates, meanwhile, need only breathe the same oxygen as the rest of us and people think they're super normal. It's part of why I like FJ so much, I actually have friends who post on and on about how great the Bates are and how normal and fun they seem and I think I strained my eyes rolling so hard.

[JermajestyDuggar]

So with the Bates girls, we've seen that Gil has given his blessing to them all marrying in the IBLP fold. But he's now allowing Tori to date outside IBLP. Bobby is obviously very fundie. He obviously passed Gil's test. I'm just wondering if he will allow more of the girls to date outside of the cult. I know it's different with the boys so I'm just talking the Bates girls. And will Bobby join the IBLP and attend conferences? I'm just curious how all this will go in the next few years.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

So with the Bates girls, we've seen that Gil has given his blessing to them all marrying in the IBLP fold. But he's now allowing Tori to date outside IBLP. Bobby is obviously very fundie. He obviously passed Gil's test. I'm just wondering if he will allow more of the girls to date outside of the cult. I know it's different with the boys so I'm just talking the Bates girls. And will Bobby join the IBLP and attend conferences? I'm just curious how all this will go in the next few years.

Does anyone know what the pool of eligibles is?  Would there be enough of iblp royalty for every Bates if G&K even wanted to make it a pre-requisite?

From my limited understanding, Chad and Zach have real jobs?  I don't know what John Wenster does...is Michael the only one who is supported by a paycheck from IBLP?  With the way these "businesses" are cyclular even without the lawsuit which is a huge deal to those depending on this scam for cash...even those idiots would have to see having more kids reliant on a sinking ship for income is a very bad idea.

Has it been discussed what the ballpark income G&K are drawing from UP?  I'll search, but if anyone has a link handy I'd appreciate it.  Because this won't last forever and not even to see the little ones to adulthood, if it ends soon.  G&K are not going to be able to help everyone if they've got a passel of kids depending on cult income.  

Which would mean gen 2.0 would have families in very dire straights when it comes to poverty and that's not helpful to the message they're shilling.

 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

21 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Does anyone know what the pool of eligibles is?  Would there be enough of iblp royalty for every Bates if G&K even wanted to make it a pre-requisite?

From my limited understanding, Chad and Zach have real jobs?  I don't know what John Wenster does...is Michael the only one who is supported by a paycheck from IBLP?  With the way these "businesses" are cyclular even without the lawsuit which is a huge deal to those depending on this scam for cash...even those idiots would have to see having more kids reliant on a sinking ship for income is a very bad idea.

Has it been discussed what the ballpark income G&K are drawing from UP?  I'll search, but if anyone has a link handy I'd appreciate it.  Because this won't last forever and not even to see the little ones to adulthood, if it ends soon.  G&K are not going to be able to help everyone if they've got a passel of kids depending on cult income.  

Which would mean gen 2.0 would have families in very dire straights when it comes to poverty and that's not helpful to the message they're shilling.

 

 

I totally agree. I can see him wanting the girls to marry IBLP men who have actual good jobs outside of IBLP. John Webster does have an actual job. I just forget what it is. 

[bashfulpixie]

29 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Does anyone know what the pool of eligibles is?  Would there be enough of iblp royalty for every Bates if G&K even wanted to make it a pre-requisite?

From my limited understanding, Chad and Zach have real jobs?  I don't know what John Wenster does...is Michael the only one who is supported by a paycheck from IBLP?  With the way these "businesses" are cyclular even without the lawsuit which is a huge deal to those depending on this scam for cash...even those idiots would have to see having more kids reliant on a sinking ship for income is a very bad idea.

Has it been discussed what the ballpark income G&K are drawing from UP?  I'll search, but if anyone has a link handy I'd appreciate it.  Because this won't last forever and not even to see the little ones to adulthood, if it ends soon.  G&K are not going to be able to help everyone if they've got a passel of kids depending on cult income.  

Which would mean gen 2.0 would have families in very dire straights when it comes to poverty and that's not helpful to the message they're shilling.

 

 

If I remember correctly, he works for his family's AC repair company.  Which in Florida can make you pretty decent money.

[Coconut Flan]

I think the AC company also does installations.  In Florida as long as their work is good, they are set.

[elliha]

6 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

So with the Bates girls, we've seen that Gil has given his blessing to them all marrying in the IBLP fold. But he's now allowing Tori to date outside IBLP. Bobby is obviously very fundie. He obviously passed Gil's test. I'm just wondering if he will allow more of the girls to date outside of the cult. I know it's different with the boys so I'm just talking the Bates girls. And will Bobby join the IBLP and attend conferences? I'm just curious how all this will go in the next few years.

To be honest I don't think they care that much about being IBLP, just being a fundie is probably enough. 

[ophelia]

1 hour ago, elliha said:

To be honest I don't think they care that much about being IBLP, just being a fundie is probably enough. 

I think a guy that wants to marry a Bates girl doesn't have to be part of IBLP necessarily, but he has to follow the same doctrine.

[elliha]

1 hour ago, ophelia said:

I think a guy that wants to marry a Bates girl doesn't have to be part of IBLP necessarily, but he has to follow the same doctrine.

I don't think it has to be the same as in identical but similar enough yes. It would be interesting to see how far this would stretch.

[formergothardite]

I bet is required that he be willing to be part of the dog and pony show and also have no issue helping advertise for IBLP. So far all the Bates, their spouses and their children are used to advertise IBLP and attract people to the family conferences*. So he can come from outside of IBLP, but he needs to be willing to come into the fold and help sell the cult as being harmless. 

I know Gil makes money from IBLP, but I don't know how much. 

*I'm pretty sure that it is no longer a requirement to be a member of ATI to attend these conferences. It seems they are used to recruit new members. 

[RosyDaisy]

Look at what happened to Whitney. She was converted into the cult.

[JermajestyDuggar]

42 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

Look at what happened to Whitney. She was converted into the cult.

But Whitney is different since they believe the man is the head of the household and she follows what he says. So Gil has to be much more careful about who the girls marry. 

[ladyaudley]

Do any non-US folk have a good source for watching the new season? My usual source seems to have gone bust

[Palimpsest]

Do we know how Tori and Bobby met yet?  Through church, ATI social activities/conferences, Bobby contacting Gil?

One thing worth noting:  people usually marry people they know.  In the IBLP sub-culture the men have more freedom to meet people not in the cult though their work outside the home..  Zach probably wouldn't have married Whitney if she hadn't been willing to assimilate and follow his beliefs.

The women are kept much closer to home so they are more likely to marry within the cult or wither on the vine.  The Duggar and Bates womenfolk are not representative examples because their faces are on TV - and both Derick and Ben saw Jill and Jessa on TV, and actively pursued acquaintance with Jim Bob/the family prior to courtships. 

I don't think we know enough about Bobby yet to rule out a family IBLP/ATI connection.  Again, people can be IFB (or other Fundie denomination) and also IBLP.  The two things are not mutually exclusive.

We also don't really know which families constitute IBLP "royalty."  It is more complex than that.  We have inklings of which families are at the top of the hierarchy, in the inner circle, or are the true believers.  Some families may just be hangers on at the periphery and wanting opportunities to marry up.  

There are many, many, families still flying under our radar.  For example:  the Levendusky family is obviously now at the very top of the hierarchy.  The Hogan family is inner circle, at the very least.  We haven't talked about them much at all.  FWIW, I've always thought Jim Bob Duggar is merely a true believer who never made it to the inner circle because he was thought an unreliable, over-ambitious, conceited ass.

[19 cats and counting]

Just out of curiosity-- did the married Bates kids (and spouses) attend the spring conference in Big Sandy?  I know Gil and Kelly (and presumably the unmarried kids) attended, but did they drag everyone else along?

I don't remember seeing on anything on social media from Erin, Whit, or Alyssa about it (Michael excluded because her husband works for them and was presumably there).

[Melissa1977]

25 minutes ago, RosyDaisy said:

Look at what happened to Whitney. She was converted into the cult.

I think she was willing to be converted. And possibly she's fundier than Zach. Zach seems a down-to-earth man not focused on religion. Not saying he's not fundie, he is. But what I mean is that he falled in love with a jeans-wearing waitress and I highly doubt he forced her  to leave pants. He has never showed interest in ATI or Alert. I suspect that he eventually will tell Whitney to stop having kids, but probably she won't accept that. I think Whitney is a person with a lot of psychological issues and sees religion and big families as a kind of solution for her pain.

Just thinking. 

[formergothardite]

21 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Just out of curiosity-- did the married Bates kids (and spouses) attend the spring conference in Big Sandy?  I know Gil and Kelly (and presumably the unmarried kids) attended, but did they drag everyone else along?

I don't remember seeing on anything on social media from Erin, Whit, or Alyssa about it (Michael excluded because her husband works for them and was presumably there).

Pictures were scarce of that conference. Typically there are lots of pictures with Bates and Duggars, but almost nothing this year.  There are lots of other smaller conferences around the country this year and finding out who attended those is even harder than the big one.

But if you didn't know Gil and Kelly were there, just looking at their Instagram account would make you think they didn't attend, so the married Bates not having pictures up and not being pictured doesn't tell us much. They could have attended but avoided pictures. They could have not attended but be attending another conference. Or they could have not attended at all because it is for homeschooling families and none of them are homeschooling. They were all used to advertise the conferences, and if any of them were anti-IBLP/ATI, I really doubt they would be doing that.