Tori Bates Courtship- Part 2

[HerNameIsBuffy]

32 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

I think she was willing to be converted. And possibly she's fundier than Zach. Zach seems a down-to-earth man not focused on religion. Not saying he's not fundie, he is. But what I mean is that he falled in love with a jeans-wearing waitress and I highly doubt he forced her  to leave pants. He has never showed interest in ATI or Alert. I suspect that he eventually will tell Whitney to stop having kids, but probably she won't accept that. I think Whitney is a person with a lot of psychological issues and sees religion and big families as a kind of solution for her pain.

Just thinking. 

How can one be simultaneously a fundy and not focused on religion?  

40 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Do we know how Tori and Bobby met yet?  Through church, ATI social activities/conferences, Bobby contacting Gil?

One thing worth noting:  people usually marry people they know.  In the IBLP sub-culture the men have more freedom to meet people not in the cult though their work outside the home..  Zach probably wouldn't have married Whitney if she hadn't been willing to assimilate and follow his beliefs.

The women are kept much closer to home so they are more likely to marry within the cult or wither on the vine.  The Duggar and Bates womenfolk are not representative examples because their faces are on TV - and both Derick and Ben saw Jill and Jessa on TV, and actively pursued acquaintance with Jim Bob/the family prior to courtships. 

I don't think we know enough about Bobby yet to rule out a family IBLP/ATI connection.  Again, people can be IFB (or other Fundie denomination) and also IBLP.  The two things are not mutually exclusive.

We also don't really know which families constitute IBLP "royalty."  It is more complex than that.  We have inklings of which families are at the top of the hierarchy, in the inner circle, or are the true believers.  Some families may just be hangers on at the periphery and wanting opportunities to marry up.  

There are many, many, families still flying under our radar.  For example:  the Levendusky family is obviously now at the very top of the hierarchy.  The Hogan family is inner circle, at the very least.  We haven't talked about them much at all.  FWIW, I've always thought Jim Bob Duggar is merely a true believer who never made it to the inner circle because he was thought an unreliable, over-ambitious, conceited ass.

The bolded proving that even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I wonder if JB is a true believer...based on nothing so that's what this is worth, but I've always had a vibe Michelle was the driving force behind the facade and JB would have latched on to any gimmick which would make him a buck.  I'm not saying he's not a Christian, I don't doubt that, but the presented fervor and lifestyle seems more like a convenient way to maintain control and have a built in audience off whom to profit.

And I do think he adores that lunatic to whom he is married and I'd put money on her being the one calling the shots and he's just the figurehead in exchange for sex on demand and mugging for the cameras.

Again - I don't know these people and don't pretend to...but I never got a sense of sincerity from JB on the religion thing.

[19 cats and counting]

14 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Pictures were scarce of that conference. Typically there are lots of pictures with Bates and Duggars, but almost nothing this year.  There are lots of other smaller conferences around the country this year and finding out who attended those is even harder than the big one.

But if you didn't know Gil and Kelly were there, just looking at their Instagram account would make you think they didn't attend, so the married Bates not having pictures up and not being pictured doesn't tell us much. They could have attended but avoided pictures. They could have not attended but be attending another conference. Or they could have not attended at all because it is for homeschooling families and none of them are homeschooling. They were all used to advertise the conferences, and if any of them were anti-IBLP/ATI, I really doubt they would be doing that. 

I thought there was pics from Ashley there but that girl's IG must be under control of UP producers.  Maybe it was her sister that posted pics from there (too lazy to look).   The family's IG was also absent--- only mentioned traveling to Atlanta on the way back and finding a church there (Ashley's in those pics).  I can't stomach myself to check TFDW's IG to see if he posted evidence of the conference.

In years past, I remember Duggars being there whether kids were old enough or not.  There was a 2011? Bates special and they go into the stink bus to find a sleeping Mackynzie (1.5?, clearly not old enough for homeschooling).  

[formergothardite]

53 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

In years past, I remember Duggars being there whether kids were old enough or not.  There was a 2011? Bates special and they go into the stink bus to find a sleeping Mackynzie (1.5?, clearly not old enough for homeschooling).  

The Duggars were also at that point being paid to speak at the conferences. Josh, Anna, and some of the older daughters have all been speakers in the past. This is the first year that none of them have not been speakers. 

 

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

I think she was willing to be converted. And possibly she's fundier than Zach. Zach seems a down-to-earth man not focused on religion. Not saying he's not fundie, he is. But what I mean is that he falled in love with a jeans-wearing waitress and I highly doubt he forced her  to leave pants. He has never showed interest in ATI or Alert. I suspect that he eventually will tell Whitney to stop having kids, but probably she won't accept that. I think Whitney is a person with a lot of psychological issues and sees religion and big families as a kind of solution for her pain.

Just thinking. 

You are making a lot of assumptions about Zach here.  His political platform emphasizes his Christian beliefs, and believe me they are as Right Wing Bible Believing Bible Bashing Christian Fundie As Hell.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if he had some financial help from IBLP for his campaigns.

Also how do you know he never showed any interest in ATI and Alert?  I would assume he went on JTTHs, just like the rest of them.  He may even have been to ALERT.  Absence of evidence doesn't mean he wasn't there.  The family may just not have talked about it on Tee Vee.  The Bateses are really sneaky about their IBLP affiliations and connections - that we do know.

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

The bolded proving that even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I wonder if JB is a true believer...based on nothing so that's what this is worth, but I've always had a vibe Michelle was the driving force behind the facade and JB would have latched on to any gimmick which would make him a buck.  I'm not saying he's not a Christian, I don't doubt that, but the presented fervor and lifestyle seems more like a convenient way to maintain control and have a built in audience off whom to profit.

And I do think he adores that lunatic to whom he is married and I'd put money on her being the one calling the shots and he's just the figurehead in exchange for sex on demand and mugging for the cameras.

Again - I don't know these people and don't pretend to...but I never got a sense of sincerity from JB on the religion thing.

Who is the stopped clock?  You'd better mean Jim Bob Duggar not me, young lady! 

Yeah, I don't know who drives the Duggar bus religion-wise either.  It could well be Michelle - but Jim Bob certainly loves playing the role of patriarch even if she is pulling his strings.  He is primarily an attention-hound, I think.

He just comes over as a light-weight and a loser with a nasty sense of humor.  Definitely a follower rather than a leader in the grand scheme of things.  He thinks he is a lot more sophisticated than he is in fact.  Gil Bates, on the other hand, is not as stupid as he wants people to think.  He does that "aw shucks" country boy routine very well but there is a calculating mind behind it. In my opinion.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

44 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

You are making a lot of assumptions about Zach here.  His political platform emphasizes his Christian beliefs, and believe me they are as Right Wing Bible Believing Bible Bashing Christian Fundie As Hell.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if he had some financial help from IBLP for his campaigns.

Also how do you know he never showed any interest in ATI and Alert?  I would assume he went on JTTHs, just like the rest of them.  He may even have been to ALERT.  Absence of evidence doesn't mean he wasn't there.  The family may just not have talked about it on Tee Vee.  The Bateses are really sneaky about their IBLP affiliations and connections - that we do know.

Who is the stopped clock?  You'd better mean Jim Bob Duggar not me, young lady! 

Yeah, I don't know who drives the Duggar bus religion-wise either.  It could well be Michelle - but Jim Bob certainly loves playing the role of patriarch even if she is pulling his strings.  He is primarily an attention-hound, I think.

He just comes over as a light-weight and a loser with a nasty sense of humor.  Definitely a follower rather than a leader in the grand scheme of things.  He thinks he is a lot more sophisticated than he is in fact.  Gil Bates, on the other hand, is not as stupid as he wants people to think.  He does that "aw shucks" country boy routine very well but there is a calculating mind behind it. In my opinion.

Ha!  I actually meant IBLP being the clock, the epicenter of so much wrong, was right about Jim Bob being  " an unreliable, over-ambitious, conceited ass." 

If that's what they indeed thought I agree with them on this one thing.

[formergothardite]

Gothard took one look at Jim Bob and said "NO". It shows you how manipulating and calculating Gil is that he was able to con Gothard into trusting him. Gothard was probably worried Jim Bob would try to take control all while his trusted little minion Gil was quietly plotting a take over. 

It is rather amusing. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I've honestly looked for any connection of ATI/IBLP to Bobby but I just can't find anything. My guess is that they met through a church or a fundie friend they have in common. I've looked for common friends amongst them on FB but Bobby doesn't seem to run in the IBLP/ATI circles just based on FB friends. Of course you can't completely go by social media. But Bobby does seem to have a lot of FB friends and I can't seem to find any ATI/IBLP connections. 

[19 cats and counting]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Gothard took one look at Jim Bob and said "NO". It shows you how manipulating and calculating Gil is that he was able to con Gothard into trusting him. Gothard was probably worried Jim Bob would try to take control all while his trusted little minion Gil was quietly plotting a take over. 

It is rather amusing. 

I don't see JB being on the board of directors for anything, unless it is Jim Bob Inc and he's CEO.  

Throughout my life, I've been an officer in several political organizations (I live and breathe politics).  While I am free to bring my own ideas to the table, if the group comes to a consensus that I ultimately disagree with, as an officer I must swallow my pride and do what the group says.  Someone like JB is too egotistical to be in a position where he may have to submit to others (even Bill Gothard).  I beleive that is why his political career was very short-lived.

While I can say a lot of negative words about Gil Bates, I don't consider him the narcissist and egomaniac that JB is.

[Exjw2015deed]

7 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

How can one be simultaneously a fundy and not focused on religion?  

The bolded proving that even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I wonder if JB is a true believer...based on nothing so that's what this is worth, but I've always had a vibe Michelle was the driving force behind the facade and JB would have latched on to any gimmick which would make him a buck.  I'm not saying he's not a Christian, I don't doubt that, but the presented fervor and lifestyle seems more like a convenient way to maintain control and have a built in audience off whom to profit.

And I do think he adores that lunatic to whom he is married and I'd put money on her being the one calling the shots and he's just the figurehead in exchange for sex on demand and mugging for the cameras.

Again - I don't know these people and don't pretend to...but I never got a sense of sincerity from JB on the religion thing.

This a thousand. I realized that the moment when Jim bob said that Jessa can hold bens hand in prayer before they were married. Michelle's face!! Like she looked like she wanted to freak out on him that he would allow hand sex before engagement. This made me realize she may be the driving force because of her sinful cheerleading days. 

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Gothard took one look at Jim Bob and said "NO". It shows you how manipulating and calculating Gil is that he was able to con Gothard into trusting him. Gothard was probably worried Jim Bob would try to take control all while his trusted little minion Gil was quietly plotting a take over. 

It is rather amusing. 

I think also because Jim bob was already moving up at that point politically, also he had a lot more money than Gil bates. Yes tlc helped a lot but he still had commercial real estate properties and a lot more financially stablility than Gil's grifting and doing tree jobs at that point with his young sons. I'm sure Gil couldn't do bigger jobs at that point so he seemed easier to control. 

[Palimpsest]

4 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I've honestly looked for any connection of ATI/IBLP to Bobby but I just can't find anything. My guess is that they met through a church or a fundie friend they have in common. I've looked for common friends amongst them on FB but Bobby doesn't seem to run in the IBLP/ATI circles just based on FB friends. Of course you can't completely go by social media. But Bobby does seem to have a lot of FB friends and I can't seem to find any ATI/IBLP connections. 

Are you confident that you know all the IBLP/ATI connections?  I'm damn sure I don't.  And I've been observing these families for ages.

Bobby Smith may be a stalker some dedicated Fundie of another stripe who saw Tori on TV and thought she was adorable.  He may be on the fringes.  He may have been to a Family Conference and be in the process of converting into the fold.

One thing is sure from the evidence - his record may not be IBLP - but it is pretty darn Fundie!

[19 cats and counting]

It will be interesting to see what is revealed about Bobby when he makes his TV debut.

[JermajestyDuggar]

43 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Are you confident that you know all the IBLP/ATI connections?  I'm damn sure I don't.  And I've been observing these families for ages.

Bobby Smith may be a stalker some dedicated Fundie of another stripe who saw Tori on TV and thought she was adorable.  He may be on the fringes.  He may have been to a Family Conference and be in the process of converting into the fold.

One thing is sure from the evidence - his record may not be IBLP - but it is pretty darn Fundie!

I don't know for sure. I just can't find any connections. I'm embarrassed by the Amount of time I spent on FB looking for any connection. But I'm positive he's fundie. 

[Diana]

10 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

How can one be simultaneously a fundy and not focused on religion?  

 

I was reading this and i thought that maybe this person meant that he is ultra conservative but not very religious. Like for example here in Spain we do have people that shares the same views than fundies on lots of things: abortion, same sex marriage, inmigration...we call them fachas or fascists(it comes from the spanish civil war) they are very right wing but not all of them are religious, some are only culturally catholic, like they would not  attend church very often or even pray. And obviously they wont have the same issues as fundies about stuff like pants, tv, alcohol, divorce, dating, sex, birth control etc.

[Larry]

He seems to go to Hillside Baptist Church which judging from their facebook page is pretty fundie and disgusting. It's full of hatred. They shared this yesterday:

''Dear reader, it is inevitable that we will become a nation that bears overwhelming sorrow until we become a people who repent of our national sins and call upon the LORD.
I am afraid the tragedy in Orlando will soon be followed by more and more brazen attacks that will heap sorrow upon sorrow.
Pause and pray for those families whose hearts are grief stricken. Pray for Christians to respond with love and compassion, even as the LORD showed compassion on the Woman at the Well (John 4:1-42).
Pray for our nation...''

 

[CorruptionInc.]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

He seems to go to Hillside Baptist Church which judging from their facebook page is pretty fundie and disgusting. It's full of hatred. They shared this yesterday:

''Dear reader, it is inevitable that we will become a nation that bears overwhelming sorrow until we become a people who repent of our national sins and call upon the LORD.
I am afraid the tragedy in Orlando will soon be followed by more and more brazen attacks that will heap sorrow upon sorrow.
Pause and pray for those families whose hearts are grief stricken. Pray for Christians to respond with love and compassion, even as the LORD showed compassion on the Woman at the Well (John 4:1-42).
Pray for our nation...''

 

 

Got to love how this church makes this massacre about themselves and being able to have sympathy...
Homophobia, even when sugar coated, is still homophobia!

[Fundie Bunny]

7 hours ago, Diana said:

I was reading this and i thought that maybe this person meant that he is ultra conservative but not very religious. Like for example here in Spain we do have people that shares the same views than fundies on lots of things: abortion, same sex marriage, inmigration...we call them fachas or fascists(it comes from the spanish civil war) they are very right wing but not all of them are religious, some are only culturally catholic, like they would not  attend church very often or even pray. And obviously they wont have the same issues as fundies about stuff like pants, tv, alcohol, divorce, dating, sex, birth control etc.

But i doubt here anyone non religious would have a problem with birth control. They have problems with it being availeable for everyone. I wouldn't call them fundies, just hypocrites

[RosyDaisy]

I think Bobby's family may have ties to the Websters Alyssa's in-laws. This is pure speculation though.

[Melissa1977]

18 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

How can one be simultaneously a fundy and not focused on religion?  

.

Of course you can. You can be raised in fundieland, hating the different, thinking women have to be just mothers, that public schools are bad, etc, but at the same time, showing no interest in religion besides going to church or praying when you have a problem. For example, look at Alyssa. She barely posts religious messages, just "look at the fancy dress I wear to church". I don't doubt she's a believer, but not all believers are always thinking on religion. And it works for any religion.

1 hour ago, Fundie Bunny said:

But i doubt here anyone non religious would have a problem with birth control. They have problems with it being availeable for everyone. I wouldn't call them fundies, just hypocrites

In fact, Spanish ultra-conservatives are not against birth control. They are against inmigrants having kids and against public subsidies for families. So I assume they're ok with birth control. At least for foreigners. Hypocrisy rules.

[nelliebelle1197]

On 6/12/2016 at 8:37 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Does anyone know what the pool of eligibles is?  Would there be enough of iblp royalty for every Bates if G&K even wanted to make it a pre-requisite?

From my limited understanding, Chad and Zach have real jobs?  I don't know what John Wenster does...is Michael the only one who is supported by a paycheck from IBLP?  With the way these "businesses" are cyclular even without the lawsuit which is a huge deal to those depending on this scam for cash...even those idiots would have to see having more kids reliant on a sinking ship for income is a very bad idea.

Has it been discussed what the ballpark income G&K are drawing from UP?  I'll search, but if anyone has a link handy I'd appreciate it.  Because this won't last forever and not even to see the little ones to adulthood, if it ends soon.  G&K are not going to be able to help everyone if they've got a passel of kids depending on cult income.  

Which would mean gen 2.0 would have families in very dire straights when it comes to poverty and that's not helpful to the message they're shilling.

 

 

SKYLAR!

I would actually take Skylar for about 3 days.

4 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Of course you can. You can be raised in fundieland, hating the different, thinking women have to be just mothers, that public schools are bad, etc, but at the same time, showing no interest in religion besides going to church or praying when you have a problem. For example, look at Alyssa. She barely posts religious messages, just "look at the fancy dress I wear to church". I don't doubt she's a believer, but not all believers are always thinking on religion. And it works for any religion.

In fact, Spanish ultra-conservatives are not against birth control. They are against inmigrants having kids and against public subsidies for families. So I assume they're ok with birth control. At least for foreigners. Hypocrisy rules.

That is because Alyssa is a #superficialtwit

I think comparing your ultra conservatives with these nuts over here is specious. American fundies are breeds unto themselves. Alyssa is not sitting around thinking about religion because I don't think she thinks much beyond "SHINY!", but the doctrine in which she was reared infuses everything she does.

I am speaking as a former IFB fundie here.

[Diana]

Thats what i meant, that they are very right wing and culturally catholic( for the Bates that would be culturally fundie) but not religious, so they would accept some stuff that its good for them like birth control,premarital sex, going to secular schools and college, but still would be homophopic, machist, racist, would hate muslims, communists, etc. so even if some of the Bates change their views in some stuff(like dress codes, not having so many kids, having normal education and jobs) and are less religious that their parents doesnt mean that they will change their essential views much from the idiology they grew up in.

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

I think Bobby's family may have ties to the Websters Alyssa's in-laws. This is pure speculation though.

That's the first place I looked! Because that was my thought as well since yet all live in FL. But Bobby, his sister, his mom, and his dad aren't FB friends with any Webster. 

[JillyO]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

That's the first place I looked! Because that was my thought as well since yet all live in FL. But Bobby, his sister, his mom, and his dad aren't FB friends with any Webster. 

Could you link to his Facebook page please? I looked, but there's about a million Bobby Smiths and Robert Smiths on Facebook (shocker, I know!).

[JermajestyDuggar]

His profile is under Bobby E Smith

 

https://m.facebook.com/g8rdude

[JillyO]

3 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

His profile is under Bobby E Smith

 

https://m.facebook.com/g8rdude

Thanks. Do you have mutual friends with him or something? Because I can literally see nothing on his page but his current profile and cover pictures, plus a few groups he's a member of. I definitely can't see who he's friends with or anything like that.

[JermajestyDuggar]

49 minutes ago, JillyO said:

Thanks. Do you have mutual friends with him or something? Because I can literally see nothing on his page but his current profile and cover pictures, plus a few groups he's a member of. I definitely can't see who he's friends with or anything like that.

I do have a mutual friend. But I looked at the friend list of all the ATI/IBLP fundies I know of on FB and looked for him on their lists. His sister, mom, and dad all have open friend lists and I see no ATI/IBLP friends on those lists. Yes, it took forever. So I could have missed someone.