Jill & Jessa Special, Sunday, December 27

[missegeno]

I am shocked that Jessa allowed them to film her during labor.  I am also shocked she gave an honest answer about how painful and tough labor is. I was expecting a fundie "keeping it sweet" answer.

It would be interesting to see how Jill will handle a woman living in abject poverty coming to her for birth control advice. While Jill and her crew can pop out baby after baby, its not really feasible for people who don't have running water or steady food supply. I don't see the god will provide reasoning applying here

She wasn't keeping sweet before labor either with all of her talk about being done being pregnant and trying to get the splooge-turned-spurge out of her.

With as much as the girls can't talk about, I'm glad she felt free to express her pain in this area.

[Grace]

I honestly think that the producers wanted this to be all gritty and real and they were like, "we're going to get them to talk about real stuff and get these really deep reactions!" And they DID...by Duggar standards. These people have brainwashed actual emotional reactions right out off their own psyches. Admitting that everything isn't all great all the time and saying "I didn't like what he did. It was hurtful" is like cutting their own chest open for these people.

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, MatthewDuggar said:

"You guys" doesn't bother me except when it turns into "Youse guys"

Still doesn't bother me, I love gangster movies.

[Dandruff]

12 hours ago, Coy Koi said:

LOL at them blurring out Spurgeon's newborn, goop-covered butt in the birth scene. These people...they are just too much. It actually seems gross to blur it out, as if it is something inappropriate. The entire show is inappropriate, but a newborn butt is the least of its problems. I wouldn't show my kid's newborn butt on TV either, but I'd just omit...like...the whole entire thing. I wouldn't show everything but the butt.

If these folks could have their babies born wearing modest, gender-specific, clothing I'm sure they'd be all in.

[EmCatlyn]

56 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

Michelle had two miscarriages.  The last pregnancy didn't last long enough to be a stillbirth despite Michelle calling it one.

I thought they had had a funeral and everything.

But that makes the "how many times did she give birth" question easier to answer.  She had 19 live births and they were also the only "births."

[Coconut Flan]

They did have a funeral, but they didn't have to do that.

[2manyKidzzz]

I think it is unfortunate Jill didn't have the opportunity to go to school to be an RN and then a midwife. She could do it. And it is unfortunate Derick has a good degree and is trying to change Catholics into fundamental Gothardites. But, many things in this world are "off".

[SassyPants]

4 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I think it is unfortunate Jill didn't have the opportunity to go to school to be an RN and then a midwife. She could do it. And it is unfortunate Derick has a good degree and is trying to change Catholics into fundamental Gothardites. But, many things in this world are "off".

I'm a nurse (4yr BSN), and I'm not so sure Jill could pass the classes needed+ the license exam required to practice nursing.

[2manyKidzzz]

Just now, SassyPants said:

I'm a nurse (4yr BSN), and I'm not so sure Jill could pass the classes needed+ the license exam required to practice nursing.

Well, with enough time to study and prepare she might be able to. She has the motivation. What about LPN....could you then qualify as a decent, reliable midwife, or is only and RN the real way to go to be an actual midwife?

[FakePigtails]

15 minutes ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Well, with enough time to study and prepare she might be able to. She has the motivation. What about LPN....could you then qualify as a decent, reliable midwife, or is only and RN the real way to go to be an actual midwife?

It depends on the definition of midwife you use. One can become a CPM (certified professional midwife) with a high school diploma and training course, like Jill did (read: lots of people who shouldn't deliver babies . . . do under that designation), or you can do whatever and be a lay midwife. Certified nurse midwives are the ones who can work in hospitals and alongside OB-GYNs and they have to have a bachelors of science in nursing plus a masters degree in midwifery. That's the type of midwifery she never had a shot at because of her poor excuse for an education combined with the family not allowing college. It's also the type that is the best regulated.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

53 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I thought they had had a funeral and everything.

But that makes the "how many times did she give birth" question easier to answer.  She had 19 live births and they were also the only "births."

I'll snark on Michelle all day long, but not for this.

I lost a baby between 19 and 20 weeks and while I refer to it as a late miscarriage it was one of the most traumatic events of my life.  It's my understanding she lost Jubilee at the same stage, and 20 weeks up they classify it as a still birth.  For medical purposes there has to be a cut off I guess, but a few days either way doesn't make a difference if it was your baby.  She can define that however she wants.

At 19-20 weeks the hospitals ask you about remains and if you're going to have a burial - it's treated very differently by medical personnel than earlier miscarriages - as devestating as they can be.

Jubilee wasn't a live birth but she was definitely a birth.  

 

[Marissap]

2 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

I am so glad this thread drift seems calm and curious. I like this. BTW, here in Alabama we call a ravine a holler, dinner means lunch, and supper is the evening meal.

Oh, and college football is like a religion. ROLL TIDE!!!!

GO GREEN!

[physicalscience]

5 hours ago, Peas n carrots said:

Hey us Midwesterners are perfectly happy with "at" ending questions. It's like asking for the specific location someone went to - if someone asked me where is mom, I would just reply "she left the room" but adding the "at" indicates she left the room and went to the basement to do a load of laundry.

I love regional dialect/slang :-)

We also will end sentences with "with" -- You want to come with? Drives my yuppie relatives nuts.

As for "whenever" I noticed that on Duck Dynasty as well.  "Whenever so and so was born."  Wait, you definitely know when she was born!  It's funny because to me it would come across as a lack of caring.  "Oh you know, whenever our daughter was born- I can't quite recall when exactly, wasn't a huge life change or big deal or anything." But I now see it's regional.

 

The "likes" and "ums" the Duggars do bother me way way more than "whenever" does.

[InThePrayerCloset]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'll snark on Michelle all day long, but not for this.

I lost a baby between 19 and 20 weeks and while I refer to it as a late miscarriage it was one of the most traumatic events of my life.  It's my understanding she lost Jubilee at the same stage, and 20 weeks up they classify it as a still birth.  For medical purposes there has to be a cut off I guess, but a few days either way doesn't make a difference if it was your baby.  She can define that however she wants.

At 19-20 weeks the hospitals ask you about remains and if you're going to have a burial - it's treated very differently by medical personnel than earlier miscarriages - as devestating as they can be.

Jubilee wasn't a live birth but she was definitely a birth.  

 

I'm so sorry that you went through this @HerNameIsBuffy it must be heartbreaking. 

I agree, she still had to labour and give birth to Jubilee, and i would classify that as a birth. 

My understanding is that "Caleb" was so early they didn't know its sex (so younger gestational age than 16ish weeks), so i imagine the miscarriage would be very different to the experience with Jubilee. But i wouldn't want to diminish the experience either... So i would say she gave birth 20 times (including the jubilee still birth), 19 live births, and 1 miscarriage (caleb). 

[Screamapillar]

3 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

This. I get the feeling that Jessa isn't a horrible bitch, but much more reserved and doesn't like to share her emotions all the time. At least two eyewitness accounts we've had on this site have claimed that she was actually pretty nice in person while Ben was a douche, and you cannot fake the joy and love you see on her face in the photos where she's holding her son, which leads me to believe that she's probably a nice enough human being with human emotions, but she's not going to reveal those emotions to the whole world unless she's good and ready (or it serves her well to do so). Do I think she's a bit smug? Yeah, but I don't think she's a bitch or a bad person.

Seconded. I don't see a bitch in Jessa. She's bossy sometimes and sassy sometimes, but so are all of those teenage Bates girls, and plenty of folks seem to think the Bates are the bee's knees for some reason.

[JenniferJuniper]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'll snark on Michelle all day long, but not for this.

I lost a baby between 19 and 20 weeks and while I refer to it as a late miscarriage it was one of the most traumatic events of my life.  It's my understanding she lost Jubilee at the same stage, and 20 weeks up they classify it as a still birth.  For medical purposes there has to be a cut off I guess, but a few days either way doesn't make a difference if it was your baby.  She can define that however she wants.

At 19-20 weeks the hospitals ask you about remains and if you're going to have a burial - it's treated very differently by medical personnel than earlier miscarriages - as devestating as they can be.

Jubilee wasn't a live birth but she was definitely a birth.  

 

Not that it matters much either way to someone who has lost a pregnancy, but Michelle was about 16 weeks along.  She kept adding weeks until she got to 20. 

 

[Mrsaztx]

9 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Not that it matters much either way to someone who has lost a pregnancy, but Michelle was about 16 weeks along.  She kept adding weeks until she got to 20. 

 

I didn't pay much attention back in those days, what does that mean "she kept adding weeks"? In the re-telling of her story, or via bed rest, or something else? 

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

They did have a funeral, but they didn't have to do that.

Well that would be true even if the child had been a full-term live birth and died of complications or whatever shortly afterwards.  You don't have to have a funeral... Not even for your 90 year old father who found the cure for halitosis or whatever. 

The question is whether the loss of Jubilee was medically classified as a miscarriage or a still birth, and I suppose I assumed that it was a still birth because there would not have been enough to bury if it was a miscarriage, would there?

 But I think you are saying that the pregnancy was not sufficiently advanced that it counted as a stillbirth but the Duggars treated it as a stillbirth.   Not surprising, really.

[JenniferJuniper]

2 minutes ago, Mrsaztx said:

I didn't pay much attention back in those days, what does that mean "she kept adding weeks"? In the re-telling of her story, or via bed rest, or something else? 

Adding weeks re-telling the story as time went along.  

Sort of like when she added Caleb to her original Dear Jubilee letter after people on the internet noted that she didn't count him/her as one of her children in heaven.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, InThePrayerCloset said:

I'm so sorry that you went through this @HerNameIsBuffy it must be heartbreaking. 

I agree, she still had to labour and give birth to Jubilee, and i would classify that as a birth. 

My understanding is that "Caleb" was so early they didn't know its sex (so younger gestational age than 16ish weeks), so i imagine the miscarriage would be very different to the experience with Jubilee. But i wouldn't want to diminish the experience either... So i would say she gave birth 20 times (including the jubilee still birth), 19 live births, and 1 miscarriage (caleb). 

Thanks . It was over 20 years ago for me and I don't dwell on it.

I agree I would never want to diminish the loss of any pregnancy regardless of the stage if it caused pain to the parents.  It's the one area I cut J'chelle a ton of slack because I know what a mess I was and I was more stable and not desperately trying to have one more before my body retired from baby making.  In fact I got pregnant again within a few weeks of losing that baby so that felt like a 14 month pregnancy in a way.  

I just know after you've had a couple of weeks of feeling the baby move, starting to show, and have to labor to have the baby...a woman can call it whatever she likes.

I couldn't bear the thought of a service, or burial, or naming him...when I think about it sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing.

i had a lot of guilt over worrying that it was my fault.  My mom died of cancer 4 days after I lost the baby and those last couple months with her were...I was just marinating in stress and I wonder if I'd done more to try to relax or not let it get to me...I don't know.  

But then I was pregnant with my son when my dad died 4 months later and there were no problems in that pregnancy with more stress (I had lost a gramma, two parents, and a baby within 4.5 months - I was a little tense), different outcome.  All any of us can do is the best we can and hit what's pitched.  

I know it sounds like a lot of drama but this was all over 20 years ago and I'm fine now...well, I will be when people stop making me defend J'Chelle!  

[Cheetah]

Dialect stuff:

*whenever - my teenaged nieces in Houston use this for 'when' as well.  Their parents are both college-educated and not from Texas and I'm not really sure what they think about their daughters using this construction... I'm guessing they gave up fighting it :-).

*soda - someone upthread mentioned it might be a NJ/NY thing, but I can tell you it's must more widespread. It's the dominant word for a carbonated drink in CA.  I grew up in Nebraska and called it pop, but went to college with a bunch of East-Coasters and decided it wasn't worth fighting so switched to soda at that point.  

*supper - my dad (originally from MN) still calls it this, but the word makes me think of a small soup-and-sandwich evening meal.  Like "we went out for a big lunch, so we just had a light supper later."  Normally for me it's "dinner".  (Maybe that's why I keep getting fatter, LOL).  

[Whoosh]

I can say two things here.  First, my thoughts for everyone who has experienced this type of huge loss.  Second, it seems fairly obvious that the FJ experts can't agree on how many times Michelle "did this" or however Jessa phrased it.  Therefore, her tossing out "19 times" right after giving birth for the first time seems fairly unsnarkworthy from my perspective.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I'll snark on Michelle all day long, but not for this.

I lost a baby between 19 and 20 weeks and while I refer to it as a late miscarriage it was one of the most traumatic events of my life.  It's my understanding she lost Jubilee at the same stage, and 20 weeks up they classify it as a still birth.  For medical purposes there has to be a cut off I guess, but a few days either way doesn't make a difference if it was your baby.  She can define that however she wants.

At 19-20 weeks the hospitals ask you about remains and if you're going to have a burial - it's treated very differently by medical personnel than earlier miscarriages - as devestating as they can be.

Jubilee wasn't a live birth but she was definitely a birth.  

 

Sorry to hear of your loss.  I only had an early term miscarriage, but it was pretty hard.   I can't imagine what it would be like roughly halfway into the pregnancy.

As for Jubilee, it really doesn't matter if she was or was not a stillbirth since it sounds as if Michelle treated it as one. So presumably in the family she can be said to have given birth 20 times, but Jessa can be forgiven for not counting Jubilee just as Michelle can be forgiven for forgetting Jessa's age.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, Whoosh said:

I can say two things here.  First, my thoughts for everyone who has experienced this type of huge loss.  Second, it seems fairly obvious that the FJ experts can't agree on how many times Michelle "did this" or however Jessa phrased it.  Therefore, her tossing out "19 times" right after giving birth for the first time seems fairly unsnarkworthy from my perspective.

Yes and if we can't come to an official consensus then who can?

Seriously though, I think most women even if they've suffered a loss like this tend to just go with how many living kids when they are casually discussing it.  At least that's been my experience, I could be wrong.  

For instance if I'd gone another week or so where it would have been classified a stillbirth I'd still say I had 3 kids if asked...because otherwise you have to recount that story to every casual passerby who small talks about kids and that's not something I could do.

5 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Sorry to hear of your loss.  I only had an early term miscarriage, but it was pretty hard.   I can't imagine what it would be like roughly halfway into the pregnancy.

As for Jubilee, it really doesn't matter if she was or was not a stillbirth since it sounds as if Michelle treated it as one. So presumably in the family she can be said to have given birth 20 times, but Jessa can be forgiven for not counting Jubilee just as Michelle can be forgiven for forgetting Jessa's age.

I was folding clothes the other day and put an old ratty highschool sweatshirt in the wrong kid's laundry stack and am still hearing about it because there was a year on the shirt and I couldn't for the life of me remember what year any of them graduated and I only have 3 of them.

I had to count back from the youngest.  OMG I am turning into Michelle Duggar.

If I start sporting a crunchy mullet I hope someone stages an intervention.

[Mrsaztx]

10 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Yes and if we can't come to an official consensus then who can?

Seriously though, I think most women even if they've suffered a loss like this tend to just go with how many living kids when they are casually discussing it.  At least that's been my experience, I could be wrong.  

For instance if I'd gone another week or so where it would have been classified a stillbirth I'd still say I had 3 kids if asked...because otherwise you have to recount that story to every casual passerby who small talks about kids and that's not something I could do.

I was folding clothes the other day and put an old ratty highschool sweatshirt in the wrong kid's laundry stack and am still hearing about it because there was a year on the shirt and I couldn't for the life of me remember what year any of them graduated and I only have 3 of them.

I had to count back from the youngest.  OMG I am turning into Michelle Duggar.

If I start sporting a crunchy mullet I hope someone stages an intervention.

Hell, I can't remember how old I am half the time, and I'm only 28. If you asked me the ages of my 2 siblings, parents, husband, etc I could come up with the right answer but it would take a minute and a few "wait, what month are we in?" I'm fairly impressed when that family can keep names straight, birthdays and ages are just bonus info. I'll rest my snark on that one