Jill Duggar Dillard Part 8: They Call Him Choo Choo?

[EmCatlyn]

Wow my life is making so much sense now.  Still don't know about the Chucho nickname for my uncle though.  We have asked before, and the adults claim they don't know why they started calling him Chucho during their childhood.  

FundieBunny has another good explanation for the Pepe and Paco thing.  (Sometimes there isn't just one right explanation.)

 

[keen23]

The name reminds me of Choo Choo Charlie from the old Good & Plenty commercial.  I used to love the ad...though I never liked the candy.

My friend's kid is named Charlie, and everyone calls him Choo Choo because of this old commercial. He's 7, and still answers to Choo Choo.

[JesSky03]

One of our neighbors always greets me with, "Hi, Mama!" He's pleasant enough otherwise (and I shy away from confrontation), so I just smile and wave. But I agree, it makes my skin crawl. (Specifically, an unrelated person calling me "mama".)

 

I've noticed on Facebook that after a woman becomes pregnant or has a baby, when she posts a picture of her self she is suddenly "hot mama" or "sexy mama" in every comment. It's just one of those things that annoys the crap out of me. 

[foreign fundie]

Women are allowed to feel however they want about their birth experience. Birth Grief is a very real thing, no different than any other traumatic event. Obviously any good and decent mother knows that healthy mama and healthy baby is what matters but you can still feel sad or defeated for not having had an experienced you dreamed while still valuing the positive outcome. It is like telling someone who had a romantic notion of marriage, which ended in divorce that she is not allowed to feel sad about that marriage not turning out the way she hoped. It is ridiculous and unfair. These are legitimate and complex emotional issues that need to be respected. Women need to grieve and not feel the way you think they should all the time. And there are a ton of reasons people want a more natural or unmedicated experience. I had a natural, unmedicated birth with my first in a birth center and we are currently planning a home birth with our second. There are a ton of personal and in my opinion, biological and emotional reasons that I make these choices. Romanticizing may play a part but it was a choice that took a lot of thought and preperation and it is no less legitimate then the mom who opted for the hospital or an induction or a c section or whatever. Granted I am using licensed, highly educated professionals as my state has the highest standard requirements for a midwife to be licenced here. But it is alright to aim for a certain experience while being realistic that modern medicine is there for the outliers in the norm. Does not make us all fundy, or hippy or crazy. 

I get the grief for not having the experience you hoped for. Non of my births went great and one was especially bad. But woman should not feel guilty for not living up to an ideal of a romantic or empowering birth experience. It is often treated like a contest. Where as there are too many things out of a woman's control to make it anywhere near fair. 

And I am not against homebirth in all cases. I'd have had one myself if I had access to the right professionals. I always slowed down a lot once I got to hospital. 

It is just that women should realize that natural and smooth do very often not go together. There are two lives on the line. There is a battle. And if both survive that battle, with whatever help they got, there is nothing to feel guilty about. 

[Chickenbutt]

I never really cared about how I gave birth (back in the 80's). I just knew I wanted to GET THAT KID OUT!"

I had self controlled Nitrous with my first, which leaked all over the place. But it was helpful. Second baby, I had Pitocin and Demerol.....which was not helpful.

 I also never had, not even one, ultrasound. Had no clue I was going to end up with two grubby little boys, who have since turned into exceptional men and fathers.

[Mary C Doates]

Choo Choo Coleman. He was a catcher for the Phillies and the Mets. 

[twinmama]

Jill tested positive for Strep B.

I guess props on her even getting tested for it?? But good god, don't take that risk with your poor baby! I was GBS positive and had there been any chance of vaginal birth I would have needed hours of antibiotics first. 

I feel like the term "mama" has gotten really popular in the last few years. It is everywhere! When I was growing up in the late 80's/ 90's in New England, everyone called their mom "mom" or "mommy." Now I hear "mama" , "mumma", and "dada" said by older children who acan otherwise speak age-appropriately. It's like parents want to preserve that early baby talk as long as possible. Makes my skin crawl.The fundies seem to love referring to moms as "mama." 

I'm as far from fundie as they come and I wish my boys still called me mama. I loved that. Now they call me mommy with the occasional mom that makes me flip out (by flip out I act shocked that they're so grown up that they say mom, they're 3 going on 4).

[foreign fundie]

I despise everything being "mama, momma and mommy" for every damn thing related to being a mother. Like all those groups on facebook named "Quirky Mama" and "Breastfeeding Mommy Talk", etc. barf

I suppose lots of us ladies have to adjust to going from a cool friend, esteemed co-worker, well rounded professional, and/or hot chick, to being labeled solely on the basis of this little person inside pushing out our bellies. And the rest of your life these little ones don't only define your schedule, but also your identity in the eyes of everyone. I love being a mum, but I wish other people could sometimes forget I was. Just so we could have casual talk about child-unrelated topics.

[Mitz_]

Maybe some of the locals started calling Izzy that as a term of endearment and it stuck? In that case it doesn't sound so out there

Well, "Chuy"  is the nickname for Jesús, Maybe we're on to something here.

 

[lilith]

I guess props on her even getting tested for it?? But good god, don't take that risk with your poor baby! I was GBS positive and had there been any chance of vaginal birth I would have needed hours of antibiotics first. I'm as far from fundie as they come and I wish my boys still called me mama. I loved that. Now they call me mommy with the occasional mom that makes me flip out (by flip out I act shocked that they're so grown up that they say mom, they're 3 going on 4).

My kids (11, 10 and 8) all still call me Mama. It wasn't a deliberate choice and my 8 year old occasionally decides he's going to call me Mummy or Mum but it never sticks. I don't see it as infantilising - they are actually much more independent than many of their peers - and I like that they feel secure enough to call me whatever comes naturally. I remember being embarrassed about calling my parents Mummy and Daddy in primary school and forcing myself to say Mum and Dad.

[rhianna]

 

There is medical evidence for better outcomes from natural birth.

Can you please cite some of this evidence? Because I have posted twice in the Jessa Duggar thread about a recent studies showing worse, measurable neonatal outcomes for home birth that so far not a single person has addressed. This whole discussion has just been anecdotes, opinions and feelings. 

Also, I don't consider further interventions "worse outcomes." I mean, that's fine if you do, if you consider a c-section or episiotomy or epidural by itself a bad outcome, but I think the far more important outcomes are morbidity and mortality of mother and baby. 

That is why she needs to be legitimized in her feelings . . . (edit mine). If we help moms know that the way they are feeling is very deep and real and can be like a type of death, they are more likely to seek help for those feelings. Whether that is counseling, therapy or prescription medications for a chemical imbalance. Otherwise they just feel like something is the matter with them for caring about something that everyone around her is saying should not mattter. Post partum depression was not even a diagnosis or legitimate medical condition for the longest time because no one could understand that a young, healthy mother with an otherwise perfect outcome ie: healthy, happy baby could not feel anything other than joy and elation. 

Okay for real? You're comparing not having your perfect birth experience with a type of death?? How is that even . . . 

Is not being able to breastfeed a "type of death"? What about having to use disposable diapers?

I mean, you have to realize that essentially trivializes death. I'm sure lots of people are going to say things like, "having this dream of a perfect birth and knowing that's what you, your soul and your body want and need, and then losing it all, is devastating beyond measure and it's like a critical piece of you just died."

But really, it's not, and I think if not having a dream birth is a type of death for you, then . . . I can't even. Because you know what? You still have a healthy.frigging.baby and an alive mother. And tons of women who have experienced real infant death would love to be in your shoes. 

When did this romaticising of birth even come into play? This paper by the CDC discusses a 71!!! percent decrease in maternal mortality from 1938-1948. I quote the following:

"During the ensuing years, institutional practice guidelines and guidelines defining physician qualifications needed for hospital delivery privileges were developed. At the same time, a shift from home to hospital deliveries was occurring throughout the country; during 1938-1948, the proportion of infants born in hospitals increased from 55% to 90% (14). However, this shift was slow in rural areas and southern states. Safer deliveries in hospitals under aseptic conditions and improved provision of maternal care for the poor by states or voluntary organizations led to decreases in maternal mortality after 1930. Medical advances (including the use of antibiotics, oxytocin to induce labor, and safe blood transfusion and better management of hypertensive conditions during pregnancy) accelerated declines in maternal mortality" 

(I will note that this paper does mention that an major early cause of perinatal mortality for women in the early 21st century was the excessive use of surgical technique before the development of asepsis). 

This book review from the NEJM demonstrates that in some hospitals in 19th century US, the maternal mortality rate was 700/10,000 (7%). Why on Earth people think that a process which actually used to kill 7% of women is something that women's bodies should, in general, be able to handle without modern medicine astounds me. For comparison, the in-hospital death rate for an optimally treated severe heart attack is 3.8%. 

So anyways, I think we can safely say that most women in the 1800s would be grateful for modern obstetrics. And I do understand that during the 1930s-70s, birth became a process that was essentially mostly in the Ob-Gyn's hands, with little input from the patient, and women felt marginalized/insulted by that. I think in all areas of medicine since then we have been moving towards a model of more patient input in their treatment decisions. But how did we get to a place where people think of having a hospital birth as a type of death?

 

Of note, you did mention post-partum depression. This is, I think, a very real and completely separate entity. The risk factors for post-partum depression include primarily a personal or family history of depression/ppd or bipolar disease, and of note, having a hospital birth is not a risk factor. 

 

 

[Mercer]

I just feel weirded out by her open letter to Jessa where she says "laboring with choo-choo". Felt way too intimate for the public.

I think I must have missed this.

I thought open letters were more something you'd write to a public figure you're never going to meet, like the president or a celebrity.

Why did Jill write an open letter to her own sister? Wouldn't you just say whatever you needed to say in a regular letter? Why did other people need to be involved?

[lilith]

Being able to plan for an "ideal birth experience" with the knowledge that both you and your baby will almost certainly survive said experience is a massive privilege, one that the vast majority of women in human history couldn't even begin to comprehend and one that isn't available to millions of women around the world even now in 2015.

I understand being disappointed when births don't go to plan (I didn't plan to be induced, labour for 27 hours then end up with a c-section with my first, didn't plan for my VBAC to turn into me being knocked out for an emergency c-section with my second, didn't plan for my subsequent two births to be by scheduled caesarean), but that disappointment really shouldn't be the defining emotion of the birth experience when it results in a living mother and child and a mother able to conceive and birth healthily again.

[Captain Obvious]

I feel like the term "mama" has gotten really popular in the last few years. It is everywhere! When I was growing up in the late 80's/ 90's in New England, everyone called their mom "mom" or "mommy." Now I hear "mama" , "mumma", and "dada" said by older children who acan otherwise speak age-appropriately. It's like parents want to preserve that early baby talk as long as possible. Makes my skin crawl.The fundies seem to love referring to moms as "mama." 

It definitely has. And not just among fundies - also among the hipster set. Seems to be a trendy/Pinterest type thing - so I wouldn't be surprised if Jill and Jessa did it too.

http://blog.longreads.com/2015/05/10/the-rise-of-mama/

[foreign fundie]

Agree with lillith and rhianna. Post partum depression is a serious illness if not treated well. But I think generally the type of birth experience is not an important factor in PPD unless the birth was especially traumatic. 

And I fully agree that we are a privileged generation to have so many medical options. My last birth was really awful for reasons I have mentioned elsewhere. It took me and my husband a long time to get over that experience not because we hoped for a perfect birth but because we felt so let down by the hospital. Still our lives were not really in danger and all possible medical services were available. I was mad with the hospital for taking my baby away and for neglecting basic mother care. But two days later we were home with a -forgive me the word- precious little baby. I never had to see those medics again. I still have my child. Birth is a day or two, the baby is for life. Some perspective may help women get over the initial disappointment of a less than perfect birth.

It would also help if the mommy magazines wouldn't blow up giving birth as some sort of magical experience which will connect us with our deep female powers and which will bring about an equally magical bond with the baby which will last for eternity.

Babies are fantastic, once they are out. Birth sucks. And you have very little control over it. 

I have a friend who last year had an emergency c-section at 25 weeks. The baby was in ICU for 3 months. She was not allowed to touch it once. She could come by the hospital once a day to look through the glass. No magic, no bonding. The baby came home and is doing great. My friend never once complained, although she had every reason IMO. She is so thankful her baby defied the odds. But then she is from a country where birth is seen as a medical procedure similar to removing an appendix. So she doesn't feel like she's missed out on the romance.

[hilee]

Sorry toddler is making it hard to fix my post. 

I absolutely feel my pregnancy and birth experience affected my PPD. My son was born 2 lbs 15 oz and grey. I knew that my son had endured my constant contractions for 3 months and had not grown but a few oz in 6 weeks. He was tired and did not cry. My placenta abrupted on the table and I did not hemorrhage in the end, just heavy bleeding. But I will never be able to carry a non preemie. I spent most of my 2 hours of recovery alone, crying and hating myself. 

I've been told I need to be thankful I have my son, of course I am, but I will never have a happy birth experience, he is my only child. I then brought home a 3.5 lb miracle who cried all the time, had severe reflux and allergic to formula, he didn't sleep more than 2 hours at a time and ate for almost 45 minutes. I was exhausted and working full time. He's all worth it, but experiences can trigger or worsen PPD in my experience. 

[foreign fundie]

Sorry toddler is making it hard to fix my post. 

I absolutely feel my pregnancy and birth experience affected my PPD. My son was born 2 lbs 15 oz and grey. I knew that my son had endured my constant contractions for 3 months and had not grown but a few oz in 6 weeks. He was tired and did not cry. My placenta abrupted on the table and I did not hemorrhage in the end, just heavy bleeding. But I will never be able to carry a non preemie. I spent most of my 2 hours of recovery alone, crying and hating myself. 

I've been told I need to be thankful I have my son, of course I am, but I will never have a happy birth experience, he is my only child. I then brought home a 3.5 lb miracle who cried all the time, had severe reflux and allergic to formula, he didn't sleep more than 2 hours at a time and ate for almost 45 minutes. I was exhausted and working full time. He's all worth it, but experiences can trigger or worsen PPD in my experience. 

So sorry for you. Especially not being able to give birth safely in the future. It all sounds very traumatic. That they are worth every bit of pain does not suddenly give you miraculous powers to deal with all that pain and exhaustion. I really hope you have good support.

I feel so sad you hated yourself for what happened. You survived a potentially lethal medical complication. Please have compassion on yourself as you would have on anybody going through that experience. Not being able to have a second baby safely is a real loss. A loss which I am sure does not make you less thankful for the son you have, but joy and sadness often come together and both need their place.

[HarleyQuinn]

 

Why did Jill write an open letter to her own sister? Wouldn't you just say whatever you needed to say in a regular letter? Why did other people need to be involved?

Because of their constant need for attention.

[hilee]

So sorry for you. Especially not being able to give birth safely in the future. It all sounds very traumatic. That they are worth every bit of pain does not suddenly give you miraculous to deal with all that pain and exhaustion. I really hope you have good support.

I feel so sad you hated yourself for what happened. You survived a potentially lethal medical complication. Please have compassion on yourself as you would have on anybody going through that experience. Not being able to have a second baby safely is a real loss. A loss which I am sure does not make you less thankful for the son you have, but joy and sadness often come together and both need their place.

Thankfully my son is now 16 months and after some major medical stuff with my husband I truly got help for my depression. My boy is a big sweet boy now, we struggle with a few delays but he's so wonderful and most days I'm quite happy to have him as an only child. He's absolutely amazing. 

[DCM]

 

Can you please cite some of this evidence? Because I have posted twice in the Jessa Duggar thread about a recent studies showing worse, measurable neonatal outcomes for home birth that so far not a single person has addressed. This whole discussion has just been anecdotes, opinions and feelings. 

Also, I don't consider further interventions "worse outcomes." I mean, that's fine if you do, if you consider a c-section or episiotomy or epidural by itself a bad outcome, but I think the far more important outcomes are morbidity and mortality of mother and baby. 

Okay for real? You're comparing not having your perfect birth experience with a type of death?? How is that even . . . 

Is not being able to breastfeed a "type of death"? What about having to use disposable diapers?

I mean, you have to realize that essentially trivializes death. I'm sure lots of people are going to say things like, "having this dream of a perfect birth and knowing that's what you, your soul and your body want and need, and then losing it all, is devastating beyond measure and it's like a critical piece of you just died."

But really, it's not, and I think if not having a dream birth is a type of death for you, then . . . I can't even. Because you know what? You still have a healthy.frigging.baby and an alive mother. And tons of women who have experienced real infant death would love to be in your shoes. 

When did this romaticising of birth even come into play? This paper by the CDC discusses a 71!!! percent decrease in maternal mortality from 1938-1948. I quote the following:

"During the ensuing years, institutional practice guidelines and guidelines defining physician qualifications needed for hospital delivery privileges were developed. At the same time, a shift from home to hospital deliveries was occurring throughout the country; during 1938-1948, the proportion of infants born in hospitals increased from 55% to 90% (14). However, this shift was slow in rural areas and southern states. Safer deliveries in hospitals under aseptic conditions and improved provision of maternal care for the poor by states or voluntary organizations led to decreases in maternal mortality after 1930. Medical advances (including the use of antibiotics, oxytocin to induce labor, and safe blood transfusion and better management of hypertensive conditions during pregnancy) accelerated declines in maternal mortality" 

(I will note that this paper does mention that an major early cause of perinatal mortality for women in the early 21st century was the excessive use of surgical technique before the development of asepsis). 

This book review from the NEJM demonstrates that in some hospitals in 19th century US, the maternal mortality rate was 700/10,000 (7%). Why on Earth people think that a process which actually used to kill 7% of women is something that women's bodies should, in general, be able to handle without modern medicine astounds me. For comparison, the in-hospital death rate for an optimally treated severe heart attack is 3.8%. 

So anyways, I think we can safely say that most women in the 1800s would be grateful for modern obstetrics. And I do understand that during the 1930s-70s, birth became a process that was essentially mostly in the Ob-Gyn's hands, with little input from the patient, and women felt marginalized/insulted by that. I think in all areas of medicine since then we have been moving towards a model of more patient input in their treatment decisions. But how did we get to a place where people think of having a hospital birth as a type of death?

 

Of note, you did mention post-partum depression. This is, I think, a very real and completely separate entity. The risk factors for post-partum depression include primarily a personal or family history of depression/ppd or bipolar disease, and of note, having a hospital birth is not a risk factor. 

 

 

Obviously it is not an actual death such as the loss of life from a previously breathing, moving or thinking individual but it can be a grief felt very deeply in a similiar way for that particular woman. How you feel about it is no less legitimate than that mom who feels "too deeply" about something you think shouldnt even be a factor because she or her baby did not die. There is always something worse that could have happened in every outcome. Everything has that arguement. Does that mean that the spectrum between 100 percent everything went perfectly and you or your baby dies has to be ignored? Because every above death is a positive outcome. I am not arguing that in the end, yes the greater aspect of the birth experience is if the mother and child came out of it physically unscathed. But emotions and thinking are a complex system that are not going to be 100 percent rational at all times. I am saying it is okay for women to feel what they need to feel, grieve whatever it is they feel that they lost in the process, seek therapy or talk it out in a respectful atomosphere and essentially move on as a healthier individual because they dealth with it in a constructive way. Your attitude is what makes moms keep quite about something that is very real to them because you feel it is ridiculous that anyone feels that way since you have not personally experienced it. You cannot control how you feel all the time, it is a reaction to your environment, circumstances, experiences etc. We would all like to think that we could accept our healthy child and ignore the experience of how they got there. But in reality that is not going to happen. 

[DCM]

Sorry toddler is making it hard to fix my post. 

I absolutely feel my pregnancy and birth experience affected my PPD. My son was born 2 lbs 15 oz and grey. I knew that my son had endured my constant contractions for 3 months and had not grown but a few oz in 6 weeks. He was tired and did not cry. My placenta abrupted on the table and I did not hemorrhage in the end, just heavy bleeding. But I will never be able to carry a non preemie. I spent most of my 2 hours of recovery alone, crying and hating myself. 

I've been told I need to be thankful I have my son, of course I am, but I will never have a happy birth experience, he is my only child. I then brought home a 3.5 lb miracle who cried all the time, had severe reflux and allergic to formula, he didn't sleep more than 2 hours at a time and ate for almost 45 minutes. I was exhausted and working full time. He's all worth it, but experiences can trigger or worsen PPD in my experience. 

These are the experiences I am referring to. Your birth experience and the terrifying outcomes wrought with complex emotions are/were real and legitimate and something that you will remember. It is not ever okay for anyone to infer that because you and your beautiful little baby survived that nothing else about it should matter. I am so thankful to hear that your son is doing so well and you have been able to seek treatment for your PPD. I hope you had others who were supportive in this time of need and exhaustion. But I imagine it was a daily struggle at times battling thankfulness and the sheer exhaustion of caring for a premie while healing from such a difficult pregnancy and birth experience. 

[EmmieJ]

I think this discussion on birth experiences might be helpful for posters who have not yet had any children -- to realize that giving birth is an unpredictable experience.  It's good to plan and prepare as best you can, but be well aware that you cannot control what happens once those contractions start.  Too many variables to predict.  And maybe stop trying to achieve a "perfect" anything, including birth experience.  Giving birth is painful, hard, messy and to me, it was also scary.  My main hope as my date approached was that things would go well, that it wouldn't last too long, and my baby would be healthy.  As far as birth experiences go, I think mine was fairly average - but I came away with the complete conviction I was not going to go through it ever again.  Other women willingly repeat the process!  In the overall motherhood experience, this is just the beginning.  I just feel badly that any woman would grieve for long over having her baby in a hospital setting versus at home, when the end result is that she and baby are alive and healthy, and you will need all of your energy in taking care of both your new baby and yourself.

 

[twinmama]

I have a friend who last year had an emergency c-section at 25 weeks. The baby was in ICU for 3 months. She was not allowed to touch it once. She could come by the hospital once a day to look through the glass. No magic, no bonding. The baby came home and is doing great. My friend never once complained, although she had every reason IMO. She is so thankful her baby defied the odds. But then she is from a country where birth is seen as a medical procedure similar to removing an appendix. So she doesn't feel like she's missed out on the romance.

What? Where did this happen? Thankfully no NICU that I know of in the US is remotely like that!! Even my friend who had a 24 weeker who did not end up coming home got to hold him, change his diapers, kangaroo care with him, feed him (by holding up the syringe with is feed in it). I had 29 weekers and held them starting on day 3. The doctors and nurses in the NICU went on and on about taking part in their care as much as I could, to facilitate bonding. We changed diapers, gave baths (once they were stable), took temperatures, held hands, read to them, sang to them, dressed them, everything you can think of... all through those arm holes in an isolet. 

[Escapefromfundiedom]

[snip]

It would also help if the mommy magazines wouldn't blow up giving birth as some sort of magical experience which will connect us with our deep female powers and which will bring about an equally magical bond with the baby which will last for eternity.

Babies are fantastic, once they are out. Birth sucks. And you have very little control over it. 

[snip]

With all due respect to you and your experiences (and other women who've had different experiences), to some women, it absolutely is a profound (magical?) experience which connects us with our deep female powers and creates a lasting bond. The fact that some women find that in birth (and even pregnancy), does not mean all women can/will/SHOULD (it's the "should" that I have a problem with...your birth is what it is to *you*, mine are what they are to *me*).

Saying "birth sucks" as a blanket statement is every bit damaging as overly romanticizing birth. It creates unnecessary fear and anxiety around an natural biological event that happens without incident or harm to mother/baby more times than not.

I could write a few essays on this...maybe an entire book. Birth is important to me because I am a feminist. There is room for a number of perspectives on this topic...we can probably all agree Jill took incredibly foolish risks with her birth but that shouldn't negate the reality that many women can (and DO!) have a SAFE, meaningful and yes, "empowering" home birth and many women want exactly that.

[lascuba]

I would like to share a story. The other day my cousin called his wife mom. My aunt looked at him in the eyes and said "I am mom. Don't be creepy". I am still laughing. 

Your aunt is my new favorite person.